Can CoH Do Better?
How can you even mention those two in the same sentence?
I don't see why people are getting so worked up about a costume that covers 90% of the wearer's skin. You see more revealing outfits walking through a mall. Are they offended that she's female? The pose isn't even really all that sexy, more just awkward. |
Ok, as a character, from what I've seen, she's still Penny, so that's ok.
Visually, however? I mean...what the hell is the outfit even trying to be? It has random belts, and the colour balance is whacky and...eh. It just doesn't feel like it fits her character. I, for one, do not see Penny Yin, friend of Jim Temblor and Fusionette remember, wearing stupid high heel boots. It's the fact that, for the character that is still present in writing, the outfit and ESPECIALLY the stupid pose makes no gorramn sense.
Heck, even taking away some of the pointless straps and making it look like she's not wearing an extra pair of panties over her tights would make it look a lot better. This isn't about some silly, prudish 'Ohmahgawd she has skin! Raaaaage!'
Edit: Oh, and the face....thing. What even is that? I don't know, but it makes her look like she has metal eyebrows, or something.
Edit Edit: Yeah, I'm not saying Penny is 'over-sexualised' or anything, because that's as equally silly. I'm saying that pose, however, is daft. And the trollface. And her outfit. Nothing to do with 'over-sexualised.' Just a combination of bad, bad and worse, for their own reasons.
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Ok so maybe I don't have all the pertinent info and the like(it happens), but doesn't the whole Super Hero/Villain thing come out of comic books? I know comic books are influenced by other things as well, but what we see in the game we play is based off of the comic book super-hero.
Edit: We are in agreement on the pose though. |
Really, I just primarily object to the 'argument' of 'X is done in comic books, so it's ok to do in the game!', even if X is really bloody stupid. Like that pose.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Visually, however? I mean...what the hell is the outfit even trying to be? It has random belts, and the colour balance is whacky and...eh. It just doesn't feel like it fits her character.
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It's the whole "over-sexualized" and "T&A" comments -- and comparisons to Swan of all things -- from a few people that simply make no sense to me.
Edit: IIRC doesn't the whole "painted on" spandex from comic books stem more from wanting to draw them cheaply and quickly than from wanting to appeal to male audiences? I seem to remember some of the first references to it being about how many artists have studied figure drawing and can practically do it in their sleep. I think a few even traced nudes and literally painted the costumes on.
Really, I just primarily object to the 'argument' of 'X is done in comic books, so it's ok to do in the game!', even if X is really bloody stupid. Like that pose.
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I think the worst thing about the loading screen is that I hear the word SPANG! every time I look at it as I figure that Penny got hit in the face with a frying pan before leaping at Shadowhunter.
Although I also agree with TBA that the Penny we're seeing now is incongruous with the one we encounter in Faultline even with five years questionable 'experience'. So yeah, I think CoX could do better.
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so it has come to this
It never ceases to amuse me and, to some degree, frustrate me that some people get all up in arms that comic book women are portrayed in an unrealistic manner. Ms. Marvel, for instance, has enormous physical strength. She can shoot energy bolts from her hands. She can rearrange the molecules of her clothing to form a skin-tight costume. She can defy gravity. Bullets bounce off of her without so much as tickling. Yet we're supposed to think that it's unfathomable that she might twist in a way during the chaos of a battle to the death that would make a normal person slightly uncomfortable?
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*Some* artistic discretion should be afforded to comic book artists, just like we currently allow symphonic sound tracks in movies without asking where the sound comes from, nor do we question why black specters are moving the environment around in stage plays, nor do we ask why an entire high school has the personality disorder of breaking out into song repeatedly in the television show Glee. We have to balance accepting the conventions of the media while being free to question whether there are opportunities to evolve or improve it.
Unfortunately, balanced positions are not common in these types of discussions.
Just today, I made mention of an oddity with the artwork for the game. I'm not flipping out about it, but on the other hand even within the context of comic book art I think its a valid observation that should lead to a correction of some kind. I think its fair to point out when I think something is odd in a way that serves no direct benefit for being odd.
As to the general comment about sexualizing women in comic books, are women oversexualized? Of course they are. Just like they are in movies, television commercials, and also most of the advertisements in women's magazines whose primary audience is overwhelmingly women. In my opinion, women are exposed to far more oversexualized depictions of women than men are, most of it promoted by or created by other women, and in a far more deleterious fashion. Comic books are a pale reflection of that issue. Comic books don't create the bulk of body image problems for young girls. Comic books aren't the source of most eating disorders in women. Comic books aren't teaching girls what is acceptable - and I don't even think they are teaching boys that either. Comic books are escapist fantasy: the real problem is the exact same fiction presented as reality in mainstream media. We know comic books are fake. But those same female depictions could have been traced right out of the pages of Glamour magazine, except people think that's actually reality.
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Now I wish I could remember that site that had people busting some of the so-called impossible poses featured on escher girls. They even had an average build dude doing the 'impossible' bust and butt pose seemingly without much effort (in that it didn't seem to even disrupt his stride while walking).
And part of what makes an alpha man an alpha man is physical attractiveness to women.
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I've seen my fair share of female lust from prepubescent schoolgirls right through women in their golden years to know that it's not always about the money, it's not always about the sense of humor, it's not always about the intelligence. Sometimes it's about raw sex appeal. |
What is it that you think they're complaining about? |
It seems to me to be that women are portrayed unrealistically in comic books, typically in an oversexualized manner. My contention is merely that almost everyone is portrayed unrealistically in comic books, typically in an oversexualized manner. |
Then remember the recent Avengers movie and ask yourself which character's initial appearance was wearing a catsuit and tied to a chair. Had to be one of the guys, right? Because guys are equally sexualized in comics, right?
This world you think exists where male and female characters are equally over-sexualized in comic books? Doesn't exist. If it did, you'd be creeped out a lot more, because there would be many more over-sexualized characters who weren't meant to appeal to you. That argument is just your way of saying, "I like the world the way it is, why should it have to change?" Which is unsurprising, as the world was built to appeal to you as a straight male.
Putting out artwork that doesn't clearly evoke "COMIC BOOK!" in average mens' minds would be marketing suicide. |
That's part of my point in my previous post -- marketing still wants this stuff pitched to teenage boys of all ages, because in their minds, that's who buys this stuff. The game as a whole provides a lot more than that, and I give the art directors credit for that. But the game is better than "not putting T&A on the splash screen is marketing suicide".
And that's kinda the point of the whole thread.
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Now I wish I could remember that site that had people busting some of the so-called impossible poses featured on escher girls. They even had an average build dude doing the 'impossible' bust and butt pose seemingly without much effort (in that it didn't seem to even disrupt his stride while walking).
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Penny's a world-shaking psychic. She should keep her spine. There's no reason she has to twist enough to show both boobs and both butt cheeks to stab something with her blade.
My comments haven't been about the amount of skin she's showing; she's average for the game and arguably less naked than Sister Psyche's green straps and gauze. But the pose she's in doesn't convey anything positive at all, and adds nothing to the action of the scene.
Another poster pointed out the awful pose Sister Psyche was in in one of the SSA load screens. They're right, it was bad. I'd missed that one.
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My problem with that pic of Penny is not that it's sexy...it's that the artist has gone so far out of his way to try and force the sexiness that it just came out grotesque. Penny is a fit, well-endowed young woman in tight clothing. Pictures of her running, jumping around, throwing punches, etc. would come out looking sexy no matter what. But no, that's not good enough...we have to see both of her breasts and both of her butt-cheeks at the same time, or else it just wouldn't be hot enough, darn it! It's just so forced and calculated. They completely lost any sense of motion or grace in the figure in order to serve up the Minimum Daily Requirement of Fleshy Bits.
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Personally I just think her face looks extremely awkward. It looks like someone did an amazing tattoo..and then told their 2nd day tattoo apprentice.. "Here you do the face." I showed the pic to some friends in the tattoo business and all they had to say was "butter." In other words: "She's hot...but her face EWW."
And part of what makes an alpha man an alpha man is physical attractiveness to women.
Look, I know that most women and most men are wired up a little differently, and I know that in general women aren't as concerned about physical appearance relative to other aspects of a man's character as men are about women's physical appearance, but it's incredibly naive to think that women aren't attracted to a fine specimen of a man. I'm not a woman, but I have four sisters and grew up in a household with up to six women (seven if you count my aunt's female dog) and me being the only male at one point, so I don't feel like I'm coming out out left field here. I've seen my fair share of female lust from prepubescent schoolgirls right through women in their golden years to know that it's not always about the money, it's not always about the sense of humor, it's not always about the intelligence. Sometimes it's about raw sex appeal. (Snip) |
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Except that's not the point -- the point is that what's being presented is the *male* power fantasy (if I had rock-hard abs, women would flock to me!), not what's actually attractive to women.
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You completely missed about five things I said in my reply. To boil it down for you again, it is that the stuff that you probably think is sexy in men? It's not easily conveyed in a poster. I get it. You value a good sense of humor over rock hard abs. Okay, how are you going to convey Synapse's funny side in a piece of comic artwork marketing material? How are you going to show off Manticore's wealth and social stability, draw him standing on a pile of money? How do you convey in a drawing Positron's sensitive side, have him holding a flower out to Numina with Nemesis all around him attacking the city?
Again, when we're talking about Penny Yin's (or anyone's for that matter) pose in game artwork and marketing material, we're talking about a purely visual medium. You don't get to explain their back stories, their personalities, their social position, those nuances that make them more human and likable. You draw them with features that most people find sexy. Big busts for women in "come hither" poses, large muscles for men in "I'm a rock, you can count on me" poses.
Even though, according to your theory, having a huge package would actually be attractive to some women.
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A woman could look at the image and think, 'ooh, there's an idea for a costume', but she's not necessarily going to look at the image and say 'ooh, I've got to play this game' -- the image is selling to men, not to women, which is part of the point of the discussion.
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I have neither the time nor the space to present the argument here -- Google 'sexualization of women in comics' and go nuts.
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What is it that you think they're complaining about? It seems to me to be that women are portrayed unrealistically in comic books, typically in an oversexualized manner.
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Go back and look through the list of comics you noted earlier and ask how many of those male heroes are over-sexualized. Superman? Batman? Spider-Man? Hardly.
Then remember the recent Avengers movie and ask yourself which character's initial appearance was wearing a catsuit and tied to a chair. Had to be one of the guys, right? Because guys are equally sexualized in comics, right? |
This world you think exists where male and female characters are equally over-sexualized in comic books? Doesn't exist. If it did, you'd be creeped out a lot more, because there would be many more over-sexualized characters who weren't meant to appeal to you. That argument is just your way of saying, "I like the world the way it is, why should it have to change?" Which is unsurprising, as the world was built to appeal to you as a straight male.
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But second, you do realize that there are plenty of female fans of mainstream comic books, right? I personally know several. I've seen girls swoon for the likes of Superman and Wolverine. Yes, they're a minority, but I don't think it's because of the oversexualization of females in comics. As Arcana pointed out above, women are sexualized in many aspects of our daily lives, including magazines that are targeted at women (Vogue, Cosmo, etc.). It's because we still live in a culture in which certain activities are deemed "appropriate" for certain genders. Playing with Barbie dolls is for girls, playing cops 'n robbers is for boys. Fortunately, some of those barriers are coming down as, for example, boys started playing with "action figures" and girls started reading comic books. As time goes on, I think things will even out even more.
And again, that's 100% incorrect. Marketing wants as many people to buy the game--male or female--as possible. But make no mistake, it is aimed squarely at the comic book demographic. That doesn't mean that only comic book readers play the game, of course, any more than only people who are war buffs play Call of Duty. But that is its chosen genre, and it is what it is.
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I'm sorry to nit pick away from common thread, but wow - you really include a dog in your count of women you grew up with!
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To this day, though, sometimes people think I'm gay and I'm convinced it's because when you grow up living with six women, you can't help but pick up some feminine mannerisms. I don't mind, though. I love my family an awful lot, every one of those goofy X chromosomes, and wouldn't have traded them for the world.
And hey, it's worked for me so far. Belle loves the fact that I never leave the toilet seat up.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
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I think the worst thing about the loading screen is that I hear the word SPANG! every time I look at it as I figure that Penny got hit in the face with a frying pan before leaping at Shadowhunter.
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Oy... I can see it now... a picture of Positron pulling petals from a daisy in the middle of a Nemesis invasion in Steel Canyon...
"she loves me... she loves me not... she loves me... she loves me not..."
Actually, bugger that - the next loading screen should have Synapse in Pocket D, grinning from ear to ear, with the LeBeaux twins, one on each arm.
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The loading screen artist scores points for at least drawing her in a pose that can be done in real life.
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Although isn't it interesting that with all those beefy hunks in Avengers, the one who seems to be causing the most fangirl swooning is Tom Hiddleston...
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
As far as some of the escher girls I've seen, Penny isn't too bad. Something that I find is missed is that a lot these poses aren't to be "held" at all. If anything they are pictures that capture a split second of action. Penny's pose, in particular, is a strike that is lurched back and about to release. In real life this position is held for a tenth of a second, since it is subsequently followed through with the strike. Now, it isn't exactly a proper form for a true punch, since anyone who reels back to launch a haymaker like that is usually defeated by a quick jab to their exposed face, but nonetheless I've seen many man-slap fights pull those pose for a half second.
My biggest issue is that Penny yin just doesn't look good at all. Her outfit tries to be everywhere at once, and it reminds me of something my graphics artist teacher taught me: If you try to throw too much into something, you just end up drawing attention away. People will take one look at it and just go "Ugh!". Like when a woman puts on way too makeup, or when a guy wears a raindbow colored shirt and pants.
As far as the actual poses go, I do have a tolerance for how disproportionate someone can look, and that tolerance is quite... high. I just don't see half of this stuff unless someone points it out to me. I suppose that is the advantage to just kind of taking things as they are. But on occasion I will see something that breaks my sense of geometry. Call it shallow, but I like the side boobs + butt look.
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I always feel a bit alienated by these threads. The assumptions about viewer experience seem to be somewhat one-track. Like Arcana said earlier (paraphrasing) there don't seem to be a lot of balanced opinions on the topic.
There is a tendency in this sort of discussion, both here and on other websites, to talk about the unfairness of the poses. It's implied by some sites that equal treatment would be men posed in the same way.
But it turns out we have a really good idea of what men look like when they are sexualized that bypasses many of the assertions of this discussion, because there is an entire genre of material aimed squarely at gay and bisexual men. The poses used there are somewhat more suggestie, but critically they are not remotely identical to what is presented as hyper-feminity in comic and superhero art. In terms of the aesthetics of the models themselves, I challenge anyone to show that rock hard abs are not a staple of this type of literature. In fact, I challenge them to show it's not a staple of literature featuring gay and bisexual men that is written primarily for women.
Beyond this, I'm willing to accept various female poses because it's art. Some drawings are better than others, but I'm willing to accept unusual body shapes for the same reason I'm willing to accept the artistic choice to outline everyone in black lines rather than draw photorealistic shadows. To me it's actually more challenging to draw a picture that establishes heroic themes than it is to just mimic anatomy.
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Is her costume practical? Enh, probably not so much for close-quarters battle. Still, I would think that, for example, Synapse's is even less so. If anything, her leather gloves and boots give her more protection than Synapse. About the only thing I find weirdly impractical about her costume compared to the men in the game are her boots. Skimpy outfits I can at least excuse to allowing more agility and flexibility. But wearing high-heeled boots, that's just crazy. (But then, I think that women in high heels look pretty silly in real life, too.)
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