Can CoH Do Better?
I had never heard of this person, so I just looked this him up and... yeah, okay. I hate to be catty, but when I look at him I think of Janet's line from Rocky Horror: "I don't like a guy with too many muscles." Right before she discovers, shall we say, a new side of herself.
To make up for time lost on that last adventure, here is Chris Evans in a towel from the first Fantastic Four movie. (The towel scene was integral to the plot.)
It may or may not be worth saying that I'm somewhat skeptical of the opinions of folks commenting on this issue who are not actually themselves sexually attracted to men, at least in terms of claiming a finalized assessment of cheesecake balance and whether or not comic books and the superhero genre offer opportunities to view male characters in that light. Obviously everyone has his or her own opinions, but I also think there's a lot that just flies over some people's heads. If you aren't picking up a measure of sexuality in the hyper-masculine, "defiant" poses of roided-out studs with youthful faces who are naked except for spandex costumes (that are essentially body paint)... well I don't know how to finish that sentence. The CoX model used for male avatars could serve as a model for animated gay blue movies with almost no modifications. Okay, maybe one modification.
As to the general comment about sexualizing women in comic books, are women oversexualized? Of course they are. Just like they are in movies, television commercials, and also most of the advertisements in women's magazines whose primary audience is overwhelmingly women. In my opinion, women are exposed to far more oversexualized depictions of women than men are, most of it promoted by or created by other women, and in a far more deleterious fashion. Comic books are a pale reflection of that issue. Comic books don't create the bulk of body image problems for young girls. Comic books aren't the source of most eating disorders in women. Comic books aren't teaching girls what is acceptable - and I don't even think they are teaching boys that either. Comic books are escapist fantasy: the real problem is the exact same fiction presented as reality in mainstream media. We know comic books are fake. But those same female depictions could have been traced right out of the pages of Glamour magazine, except people think that's actually reality.
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Also can we all agree that it's just bad art and Penny's costume sucks?
Can the next community contest be redesign Penny's costume? It's terrible as is. Just awful.
No. Really. It's awful.
Something witty and profound
To me, where the loading screen artwork fails the most is the lack of any feel of movement.
I can accept a character, male or female, in an awkward position if there is the sense in the drawing that the position is not a static pose. The loading screen artwork fails in that respect.
As far as female characters being oversexualized? There are a few points there.
1) City of Heroes draws its inspiration from comic books. The argument that it is a superhero game and not a comic book game falls flat on its face when you consider that the very idea of what a superhero IS only exists because of American comic books.
2) The target audience of comic books is and always has been teenage males. Your average teenage boy does not want to see a realistically depicted female character. He wants his female characters to be impossibly attractive and improbably proportioned. When a teenage male sees an attractive woman, the first thing he notices is either her butt or her boobs (depending on which direction he is seeing her from). If he tells you otherwise, he is most likely lying. Sure, he will notice other features, but that's what he sees first every time. I won't lie, it's still the first thing *I* notice, and I haven't been a teenager for a while now. I'm not a complete pig, I notice other things as well, but those two features are what draw my eye in the first place.
3) It is exceptionally rare for comic books to get flak for oversexualization from the people who actually READ them. This game has a rather high proportion of female players, but how many of those female players are also comic book fans? Probably not very many.
If you really want to point a finger at something for creating a bad stereotype for women, look no further than the Barbie doll. When you give your 5 year old daughter a Barbie doll, you are tacitly implying "This is what you should aspire to look like", whether you intend to or not.
Then there are magazines such as Cosmopolitan. Those magazines are supposedly targeted at your average woman. So tell me, if that is the case, why is the cover model always supermodel perfect and wearing something impractical and revealing? The same goes for 90% of the magazines targeted at women. Next time you go to someplace that has a magazine rack, peruse the covers of the so-called "women's magazines" and count how many NORMAL looking women you see there.
You can't really point fingers at comic books for futhering stereotypes without a sense of irony. At least comic books aren't pretending to be portraying what women really look like in the real world. Comic books are taking the attractiveness stereotype and making it larger than life, just like they do with everything else. I've never gotten a sense that a comic book artist was trying to convince me that this is what women are supposed to look like......I can't say the same for the magazines I see that are supposedly targeted at a female audience.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I think we should have the option to choose from all load screens previously used, I prefer the groin to this current one. And I hate the groin.
I have a great idea for the next Freedom Phalanx inductee: she's from Indonesia and wears a niqab, plus she's the most powerful psychic in the world! It's basically win-win.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Actually, thinking about Loki, we don't really have an effortlessly sexy villain like him in the game - so many of them seem are either lacking in looks or personality - or both
Sleazy ones like Captain Castillo or Praetorian Percy don't count, as they're trying too hard - and failing - the Loki type need to be accidently sexy, and doesn't really acknowledge it, as he's too busy with his evil plans.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Actually, thinking about Loki, we don't really have an effortlessly sexy villain like him in the game - so many of them seem are either lacking in looks or personality - or both
![]() Sleazy ones like Captain Castillo or Praetorian Percy don't count, as they're trying too hard - and failing - the Loki type need to be accidently sexy, and doesn't really acknowledge it, as he's too busy with his evil plans. |
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Actually, thinking about Loki, we don't really have an effortlessly sexy villain like him in the game - so many of them seem are either lacking in looks or personality - or both
![]() Sleazy ones like Captain Castillo or Praetorian Percy don't count, as they're trying too hard - and failing - the Loki type need to be accidently sexy, and doesn't really acknowledge it, as he's too busy with his evil plans. |
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Avengers was so much damn fun because Loki was a spot-on perfect Super Villain. He was intelligent, charismatic mixed with evil and a little bit of twisted, and still powerful in his own way.
And guilty of monologuing at the worst times, thank you for that moment Dr Banner
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
We need more classy villains. Or better writing for the existing ones.
"...This usually works."
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Why are you carrying a picture of Master Midnight in your wallet?
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![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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1) City of Heroes draws its inspiration from comic books. The argument that it is a superhero game and not a comic book game falls flat on its face when you consider that the very idea of what a superhero IS only exists because of American comic books.
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2) The target audience of comic books is and always has been teenage males. Your average teenage boy does not want to see a realistically depicted female character. He wants his female characters to be impossibly attractive and improbably proportioned. When a teenage male sees an attractive woman, the first thing he notices is either her butt or her boobs (depending on which direction he is seeing her from). If he tells you otherwise, he is most likely lying. Sure, he will notice other features, but that's what he sees first every time. I won't lie, it's still the first thing *I* notice, and I haven't been a teenager for a while now. I'm not a complete pig, I notice other things as well, but those two features are what draw my eye in the first place.
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This informs my taste for comic books and fictional characters, as well. "Girl in bikini" really doesn't interest me. If I've seen one I've seen them all, at least as far as comic books go. Now, one with an unusual design, like wings, robotic arms or NOT posing and dressed in a swimsuit? Yeah, that's worth a second look. Consider it overexposure - there is so much sex appeal blasting at me from most media I just don't have any interest in it any more, unless it does something I haven't seen before... And Penny certainly doesn't.
But again - isn't that the point of "can CoH do better?" Yes, comic books and, by extension, a game based around them, are designed to appeal to horny 13-year-olds. But shouldn't we want to do better? Or, failing that, shouldn't we want to do MORE than just that?
3) It is exceptionally rare for comic books to get flak for oversexualization from the people who actually READ them. This game has a rather high proportion of female players, but how many of those female players are also comic book fans? Probably not very many.
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THIS game, I feel, should hold itself to a higher standard than the common lowest-common-denominator clichés that comic books suffer from. To me, the idea that we're not doing art or coming up with good ideas here, but just appealing to the worst of comic books is a very disappointing way to run the game. Instead of trying to make it into something unique and interesting, we're essentially resigning ourselves to be a niche game with no personality. And City of Heroes CAN do better than this because City of Heroes HAS done better than this in the past.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Actually, thinking about Loki, we don't really have an effortlessly sexy villain like him in the game - so many of them seem are either lacking in looks or personality - or both
![]() Sleazy ones like Captain Castillo or Praetorian Percy don't count, as they're trying too hard - and failing - the Loki type need to be accidently sexy, and doesn't really acknowledge it, as he's too busy with his evil plans. |
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Granted half of his face is hidden, but something about him makes me think of a Gale Harold (circa 2001).
![](http://wiki.cohtitan.com/w/images//1/14/Maelstrom.png)
![](http://www.malecelebnews.com/wp-content/images/2011/09/Gale-Harold-stars-in-The-Secret-Circle-05.jpg)
To me, where the loading screen artwork fails the most is the lack of any feel of movement.
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2) The target audience of comic books is and always has been teenage males. |
Your average teenage boy does not want to see a realistically depicted female character. He wants his female characters to be impossibly attractive and improbably proportioned. |
3) It is exceptionally rare for comic books to get flak for oversexualization from the people who actually READ them. This game has a rather high proportion of female players, but how many of those female players are also comic book fans? Probably not very many. |
If you really want to point a finger at something for creating a bad stereotype for women, look no further than the Barbie doll. When you give your 5 year old daughter a Barbie doll, you are tacitly implying "This is what you should aspire to look like", whether you intend to or not. |
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Maelstrom is way too emo to fill the role of effortlessly sexy supervilalin - plus, he's just a lackey
I've been think about the major archvillains in the game, and I think that one that comes closest to the effortlessly sexy type is Recluse - he's the boss of the group he belongs too, he has his own evil lair, stupidly over the top uniform deisgns for his minions, a variety of colorful henchpeople, and a strong desire to take over the world - plus, he has the vital personality trait of just wanting to cause chaos and evil for the heck of it - he's a villain, and he doesn't mind telling everyone he's one - there's none of this pretending to be a hero stuff like Tyrant does, or the regimented and disciplined evil of the 5th Column/Council.
But the major points against Rcluse are his inferiority complex regarding Statesman, and the major lack of sex appeal in his looks and outfit - so the position is still open for our first red hot supervillain hunk in the game
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
(Gods damn you all, stop making me agree with Golden Girl! >_<)
The main problem with Recluse is...well...he's badly written. He's made to look ineffectual...if he's ever used at all, in fact. He is the master of Webs, for heavens sake, he should be second only to Nemesis when it comes to puppeteering and spinning plots, on level and arguably superior to the Centre and the Council because, hey, you don't see THEM with their own Island nation.
Now, yes, people did feel (rightly so) that being nothing but an Arachnos lackey for the majority of Redsides history sucked. And that's fine. Not being a lackey is good.
But in the same way Villains team up with mad doctors or guys who have more resources or for mutually beneficial backside-whupping, Recluse should be the big-bad that people can turn to to make an offer. i.e. If you lend me a flyer and some scientists then, I dunno, I can take out anyone who is particularly bugging you at the moment.
He needs to be the kind of guy where Heroes do "But, but I did X, Y and Z to stop you!" and he can reply "I know. As expected."
Cue even laughter
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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(some snippage ahead)
2) The target audience of comic books is and always has been teenage males. Your average teenage boy does not want to see a realistically depicted female character. He wants his female characters to be impossibly attractive and improbably proportioned. When a teenage male sees an attractive woman, the first thing he notices is either her butt or her boobs (depending on which direction he is seeing her from). If he tells you otherwise, he is most likely lying. Sure, he will notice other features, but that's what he sees first every time. I won't lie, it's still the first thing *I* notice, and I haven't been a teenager for a while now. I'm not a complete pig, I notice other things as well, but those two features are what draw my eye in the first place. 3) It is exceptionally rare for comic books to get flak for oversexualization from the people who actually READ them. This game has a rather high proportion of female players, but how many of those female players are also comic book fans? Probably not very many. |
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
Female models here can't be as tall as male models, they can never be as big, they have considerably different stances and run animations... I can abuse the sliders system and play with costume details and push a female's look to the very edge of what the editor can produce, and only reach what a male model can pretty much on average.
At the end of the day, this game is not a comic book. It's a game that's its own thing with its own identity. The worst thing it can do is abandon this to be more like something that a lot of its players aren't even all that into. Both Champins and DC are trying to stick much closer to comic books in terms of theme and artwork, and yet a lot of us are still here, playing this game and not there playing those.
Like it or not, as games become more popular and develop a more diverse player base, the old excuses simply no longer work because more players are bringing up the same concerns. This will not go away and the "comic book excuse" will only ring more and more true. Horrible representation of women is no more excusable with comic book logic than horrible storytelling and disjointed continuity is.