Magisterium Farm, So did the devs consider this possibility?
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2012-06-02 23:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The devs would have to be frigging morons to not have seen this coming.
But....they've got to get people to run the new stuff somehow.
If they hadn't gated Hybrid behind running this one trial and instead made it unlockable with normal IXP....how many people would have simply burned Incarnate threads, Astrals, and Empyreans to unlock it and never bothered running it at all? I'm guessing a significant number. Because, much to the devs surprise, many people don't actually LIKE the trials, they just run them to get the new shinies so they can make older level 50 content completely trivial.
So, if they hadn't gated it like they did, the devs would have spent the last couple months working on something that ends up being run about as frequently as the Shard TFs. It would suck to work hard on something only to have it ignored.
So they gated it. Now the first part of it is being farmed and the rest of it ignored.
From the devs perspective, having people play the first part of it has got to be better than having almost no one play it at all.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Im more than happy to join in Hybrid farms, I'm undecided if its right or wrong, but one way to stop the farming in any trial would be to award the total IXP gained only upon completion of the trial.
This would be very unpopular, but and I dont want to use the word force here so ill opt for encourage people to want to succeed.
I play on several servers and each server does things very differently which is a good thing 
Lets take the Lambda which is a relatively easy trial in comparison to Magesterium and one thats probably run the most after BAF
Ive seen this trial fail so many times on one particular server because they run it as a Slam, only the leaders just invite anyone who shouts for invite and doesn't care less about powersets or level shifts, most of the leaders are straight 50 and are only interested in IXP and not bothered if trial completes.
If you get people who are AFK for the final fight and have pacification grenades, mobs start to build up very quickly cos none of the portals have been closed.
Straight 50's looking for IXP dont have judgement nukes for the mobs
Several of the league position themselves in the Cutscene area, strike a pose and have a bind ready to spam so people notice them, while the others stand together ready to spam buffs in preparation for the Alpha
The mobs build up more and players that normally stand and take the damage from Marauders Fist instead of moving away at the warning now have mob aggro on them as well and die.
DPS drops from dead players getting back from hospital, cos most healing toons are PvP built and dont have a rez : Mobs build up cos again no portals have been closed
The player that got two pacification grenades drop is still AFK, but its ok he only wants IXP
Pretty soon you are over run and there is no way back
A slam can save probably 5 minutes, but it loses you Astrals, and gives you less chance of the completion reward that people who dont need IXP joined the trial for in the first place.
My point is this, its bad practice and doesnt prepare players for the harder trials - Red warning on screen mean nothing to some players, those players in a Magesterium trial will have a very hard time 
@kisana
Basically, my earlier point is that the devs are screwed no matter HOW they approach this situation.
They gate things so people will actually run the things they busted their butts over the last several months making, people get mad about it and call it bad game design.
If they didn't gate things, the only people who would run it are hardcore badgers and completionists, and they would stop after they got their badges. We wouldn't care much about that, but I'm sure they would.
I find it incredibly ironic that after all the clamoring for REAL endgame content that went on for years....no one seems to actually want to PLAY that endgame content. They just want the stuff you get from it to make the other stuff they do easier.
On the bright side, the way our devs have arranged this is a hell of a lot better than some other MMOs, where you have to run an incredibly difficult raid repeatedly because there is only a 5% chance of ONE person in it getting the Uber-rare Dealybob of Ultimate Awesome that is the whole point of running the raid in the first place. At least in OUR endgame content, everyone who does it gets rewarded for doing so.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Which shows they are badly designed in some way or people wouldn't be avoiding it otherwise.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Basically, my earlier point is that the devs are screwed no matter HOW they approach this situation.
They gate things so people will actually run the things they busted their butts over the last several months making, people get mad about it and call it bad game design. If they didn't gate things, the only people who would run it are hardcore badgers and completionists, and they would stop after they got their badges. We wouldn't care much about that, but I'm sure they would. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I find it incredibly ironic that after all the clamoring for REAL endgame content that went on for years....no one seems to actually want to PLAY that endgame content. They just want the stuff you get from it to make the other stuff they do easier.
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Things is they have done content which people enjoy running repeatadly: ITF which has a huge range coverage and RWZ raids still get run on a daily and weekly basis. DA is also a hell of a lot more enjoyable than grinding trials.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
On the bright side, the way our devs have arranged this is a hell of a lot better than some other MMOs, where you have to run an incredibly difficult raid repeatedly because there is only a 5% chance of ONE person in it getting the Uber-rare Dealybob of Ultimate Awesome that is the whole point of running the raid in the first place. At least in OUR endgame content, everyone who does it gets rewarded for doing so.
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Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Okay, give me an example of WELL designed content. |
Originally Posted by Tyger
Which shows they are badly designed in some way or people wouldn't be avoiding it otherwise.
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It's a safe bet that for every example you come up with, several people will disagree with you.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for the devs to design content that is viewed as well-designed and fun by 100% of the players. It can't be done.
I know people who have never run a task force because they think the idea of completing a bunch of missions in a row for a badge and reward merits is dumb. Same goes for trials.
There are people who are saying Magisterium is fun in its own right, just as there are people who are saying it's the wors thing ever forced on us in the history of the game.
Point being, "well-designed" isn't as black and white of an issue as you're implying. One person's fun is anothers tedium, and that is just simply human nature.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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The bolded is an interesting point.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The devs would have to be frigging morons to not have seen this coming.
But....they've got to get people to run the new stuff somehow. If they hadn't gated Hybrid behind running this one trial and instead made it unlockable with normal IXP....how many people would have simply burned Incarnate threads, Astrals, and Empyreans to unlock it and never bothered running it at all? I'm guessing a significant number. Because, much to the devs surprise, many people don't actually LIKE the trials, they just run them to get the new shinies so they can make older level 50 content completely trivial. So, if they hadn't gated it like they did, the devs would have spent the last couple months working on something that ends up being run about as frequently as the Shard TFs. It would suck to work hard on something only to have it ignored. So they gated it. Now the first part of it is being farmed and the rest of it ignored. From the devs perspective, having people play the first part of it has got to be better than having almost no one play it at all. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Okay, give me an example of WELL designed content.
It's a safe bet that for every example you come up with, several people will disagree with you. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the devs to design content that is viewed as well-designed and fun by 100% of the players. It can't be done. I know people who have never run a task force because they think the idea of completing a bunch of missions in a row for a badge and reward merits is dumb. Same goes for trials. There are people who are saying Magisterium is fun in its own right, just as there are people who are saying it's the wors thing ever forced on us in the history of the game. Point being, "well-designed" isn't as black and white of an issue as you're implying. One person's fun is anothers tedium, and that is just simply human nature. |
Ehhh I think the RWZ Mothership Raid and ITF rank up there with some of the greatest COH content ever created. I think (based MHO) that you'd find many people who just plain hate both or either.
Also the folks clamoring for endgame did not necessarily mean the same raid-style system every other mmo on the market does.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I would almost agree with the ITF, prefect level range, challenging enemies, good story line, however I think it falls short of being some of the "greatest CoH content ever created" for the simple fact that you need to unlock the zone, which is IMO is one of the worst designs in CoH ever.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Ehhh I think the RWZ Mothership Raid and ITF rank up there with some of the greatest COH content ever created. I think (based MHO) that you'd find many people who just plain hate both or either.
Also the folks clamoring for endgame did not necessarily mean the same raid-style system every other mmo on the market does. |
Personally I love the farms. I completed the trial once successfully, that's all I care for. Heck I can run a BaF or Keyes in half the time and get more Astrals, Emps and if it's Keyes, have a better chance on the component reward table.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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And they've taken steps towards making that MUCH easier. Now, a fast hop through the Tunnel system (which can be found in both Mercy and Atlas), and you can grab a single explore badge in Night Ward to unlock it. No fighting, and it can be done as early as level 1.
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I would almost agree with the ITF, prefect level range, challenging enemies, good story line, however I think it falls short of being some of the "greatest CoH content ever created" for the simple fact that you need to unlock the zone, which is IMO is one of the worst designs in CoH ever.
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"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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Yes but that's an issue with the ZONE's design, not the design of the actual tf.
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I would almost agree with the ITF, prefect level range, challenging enemies, good story line, however I think it falls short of being some of the "greatest CoH content ever created" for the simple fact that you need to unlock the zone, which is IMO is one of the worst designs in CoH ever.
Personally I love the farms. I completed the trial once successfully, that's all I care for. Heck I can run a BaF or Keyes in half the time and get more Astrals, Emps and if it's Keyes, have a better chance on the component reward table. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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The overwhelming majority of player behavior is reward driven.|
Originally Posted by Tyger
Which shows they are badly designed in some way or people wouldn't be avoiding it otherwise.
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People will run the worst garbage imaginable in preference to the finest content conceivable by the mind of Man if the rewards are better.
Now ideally you get fun stuff *with* good rewards, but in this context "good design" basically means it kicks down well enough that most people want to do it.
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I find the ITF to be one of the grindier of the "new" TFs. It's fun once in awhile but like the LGTF, I have tor really be in the mood for one.
@bpphantom
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Yes 20 years later...
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Originally Posted by Rabid_M
And they've taken steps towards making that MUCH easier. Now, a fast hop through the Tunnel system (which can be found in both Mercy and Atlas), and you can grab a single explore badge in Night Ward to unlock it. No fighting, and it can be done as early as level 1.
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Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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But the TF can only be started in the zone with all players present.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Yes but that's an issue with the ZONE's design, not the design of the actual tf.
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Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
I'm glad the 16 buff cap was a mistake and will soon be patched, maybe people will run complete trials now. (assuming of course people haven't been conditioned to just quit after 250 IDF now)
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
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Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
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On the general question of whether the devs were aware of the possibility, I'm sure they were. I'm sure its deliberate that because they knew the trial was intended to be harder, that failures would be more common, and so they frontloaded Hybrid XP so that even if players failed they would still make significant progress on Hybrid.|
Originally Posted by Unknown_User
I did start my own league to complete the Magisterium trial after the farm run, which I queued into not knowing that it was a farm run, but had 5 people bail as soon as part 1 was completed. My problem was having farmers jumping on an broadcasted full run of the Magisterium trial and bailing after part 1.
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The combination of the two unfortunately encourages farming, which I'm sure the devs were aware of but decided was an acceptable problem considering the alternative was backloading the trial and causing failures to produce almost nothing.
As to the issue of people *obviously* bailing on full runs that are specifically announced to be full runs, I'm sorry to hear about that; that's a jerkwad move and I would probably just one-star them all. If you're not going to attempt the full run, you shouldn't join a league attempting the full run. Unfortunately, dealing with the stupid and the callous is part of the price of admission for doing anything involving the internet and other people. There's no way to waive that fee.
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I gave you two examples neither of which needs anything special beyond SOs. And 'well-designed' isn't as black and white as you're implying I'm implying it is.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Okay, give me an example of WELL designed content.
... Point being, "well-designed" isn't as black and white of an issue as you're implying. One person's fun is anothers tedium, and that is just simply human nature. |
ITF has a large range coverage, can be done easily on SO-only characters and has some interesting set pieces. I don't know of anyone who's recently said that they hate it. As said above the Midnighters access can now be nabbed at level 1 by going through TUNNEL to Night Ward and nabbing the explore inside the Praetorian Midnighters. The only gate is having to go through the Primal Midnighters to get to the zone.
Trials are not well-designed (Snow Globe has put it much better than me in beta threads). Latter ones are being designed implicitly for players with shifts which is why the NPCs are being given shifts of their own. This has led to players self-regulating who gets to join leagues for later trials and newer Incarnates being left out because they don't have enough shifts of their own.
And what happens with the next arc of trials? Will the difficulty start over? Doubtful given it's supposed to be the Well-consuming Battalion next.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Ehhh I think the RWZ Mothership Raid and ITF rank up there with some of the greatest COH content ever created. I think (based MHO) that you'd find many people who just plain hate both or either.
Also the folks clamoring for endgame did not necessarily mean the same raid-style system every other mmo on the market does. |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The overwhelming majority of player behavior is reward driven.
People will run the worst garbage imaginable in preference to the finest content conceivable by the mind of Man if the rewards are better. Now ideally you get fun stuff *with* good rewards, but in this context "good design" basically means it kicks down well enough that most people want to do it. |
Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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They dont announce they are going to leave they just silently quit.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
On the general question of whether the devs were aware of the possibility, I'm sure they were. I'm sure its deliberate that because they knew the trial was intended to be harder, that failures would be more common, and so they frontloaded Hybrid XP so that even if players failed they would still make significant progress on Hybrid.
The combination of the two unfortunately encourages farming, which I'm sure the devs were aware of but decided was an acceptable problem considering the alternative was backloading the trial and causing failures to produce almost nothing. As to the issue of people *obviously* bailing on full runs that are specifically announced to be full runs, I'm sorry to hear about that; that's a jerkwad move and I would probably just one-star them all. If you're not going to attempt the full run, you shouldn't join a league attempting the full run. Unfortunately, dealing with the stupid and the callous is part of the price of admission for doing anything involving the internet and other people. There's no way to waive that fee. |
By the time they do your kinda sitting there wondering, did we just loose some people, oh crud who left... let me hunt them down and 1 star them or just either abort and restart or try to finish the trial.
Players will be jerks if you give them a chance, they will really be jerks if the game design encourages it.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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The solo content was designed to catch people up when they cant find trials.|
Originally Posted by Tyger
I gave you two examples neither of which needs anything special beyond SOs. And 'well-designed' isn't as black and white as you're implying I'm implying it is.
ITF has a large range coverage, can be done easily on SO-only characters and has some interesting set pieces. I don't know of anyone who's recently said that they hate it. As said above the Midnighters access can now be nabbed at level 1 by going through TUNNEL to Night Ward and nabbing the explore inside the Praetorian Midnighters. The only gate is having to go through the Primal Midnighters to get to the zone. Trials are not well-designed (Snow Globe has put it much better than me in beta threads). Latter ones are being designed implicitly for players with shifts which is why the NPCs are being given shifts of their own. This has led to players self-regulating who gets to join leagues for later trials and newer Incarnates being left out because they don't have enough shifts of their own. And what happens with the next arc of trials? Will the difficulty start over? Doubtful given it's supposed to be the Well-consuming Battalion next. Exactly. City has stayed around despite not having an true endgame for 6-7 years and with a "surprising 90% month-on-month retention". Very true. I wonder how well the Magi trial would've been recieved if there was a guarenteed Very Rare on a week-long timer. |
It doesnt work, its so stingy that its very rarely run by anyone I know more than once, they would still rather farm baf's because its so much easier and faster.
Players are exceedingly reward driven.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Until they fix the Notice of the Well buff, I think I recommend two things for those who want to complete the trial.
- Shoot for 16 people max.
- Ask people to avoid summoning pets, even Lore.
The next one we did was 16 people. We melted his face. He shrank as the lights came out for the third time, including the first time right before the fight actually starts. So that was like four minutes and change.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I suspect it may have been intentionally designed in a manner to allow for farming, so folks who do not like incarnate trials can actually get their carrot without having to commit too much to actually doing an iTrial.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The devs would have to be frigging morons to not have seen this coming.
But....they've got to get people to run the new stuff somehow. If they hadn't gated Hybrid behind running this one trial and instead made it unlockable with normal IXP....how many people would have simply burned Incarnate threads, Astrals, and Empyreans to unlock it and never bothered running it at all? I'm guessing a significant number. Because, much to the devs surprise, many people don't actually LIKE the trials, they just run them to get the new shinies so they can make older level 50 content completely trivial. So, if they hadn't gated it like they did, the devs would have spent the last couple months working on something that ends up being run about as frequently as the Shard TFs. It would suck to work hard on something only to have it ignored. So they gated it. Now the first part of it is being farmed and the rest of it ignored. From the devs perspective, having people play the first part of it has got to be better than having almost no one play it at all. |
Let's Dance!
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So do you ask MM's not to use their pets or just not invite them?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Until they fix the Notice of the Well buff, I think I recommend two things for those who want to complete the trial.
The next one we did was 16 people. We melted his face. He shrank as the lights came out for the third time, including the first time right before the fight actually starts. So that was like four minutes and change. |
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
I would just ask them to dismiss their pets in the Tyrant fight only, apologetically (but briefly) explaining why and that hopefully no one will need to be asked that for much longer.
I would not avoid them / fail to invite them.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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You do realize they are minimally contributing.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I would just ask them to dismiss their pets in the Tyrant fight only, apologetically (but briefly) explaining why and that hopefully no one will need to be asked that for much longer.
I would not avoid them / fail to invite them. |
They are adding no meaningful amount of damage and buff/debuff way weaker than a controller/corruptor.
This is in a fight thats very heavily a dps race.
Im just wondering if thats putting the benefit of one individual above the entire group. Im not trying to be snarky mean or exaggerating here, but are you letting your sense of fair play override necessity in a fairly difficult trial.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
If you want to complete the trial every time...then start your own league.
I did start my own league to complete the Magisterium trial after the farm run, which I queued into not knowing that it was a farm run, but had 5 people bail as soon as part 1 was completed. My problem was having farmers jumping on an broadcasted full run of the Magisterium trial and bailing after part 1.
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