How do you keep a copyrighted name?
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2012-05-22 21:50 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Actually the reason WoW can have orcs, is because Blizzard had already used Orcs in their Warcraft series.
Blizzard's Orcs are different from Games Workshop's Orks (Warhammer,W40K)
which are different from Tolkiens Orcs
I think the only overlap is between Tolkiens and D&D's, either way because Orcs have a usage that predates Tolkien's writings it's all good.
I can understand your anger and frustration. I have been on the same position, but all Captain Electric was trying to do is to help you. It is not fair on your part for trying to report him because he has the name Hercules which is a public domain name and his character does not have any resemblance to any of the Hercules (Marvel, DC and so on).
I know how can you feel for what happened to you Abomination character. There are two Abomination NPCS. Abomination from the Halloween Trial and the Abomination Vahzilok minions. I know how contradictory this can be, since if we only point that the trademark violation is just for the character name, there will be a lot of trouble with the Abomination NPCS.
We can use for a good example the character name Jester. In the past, Jester was blocked because of the Marvel Comics Jester, now we have the Jester in First Ward, so we can see another contradictory example.
One of the comments i have support regarding this case is that Paragon/NC Soft have a lot of distrust on how players will handle these type of character names with their likeness. I can understand them because of the lawsuit made by Marvel and how they want to keep safe from all the lawyers fees and scandals. Still they must understand that there are a lot of players that are responsible and will use the names correctly without making any trademark violation.
A good example of this is Captain Electric with Hercules and Selenir with Phoenix.
A good resolution to this problem is to have all the GMS who have real knowledge about comic books, anime, video games, movies, pop culture and etc, to inspect the characters who have these type of character names and make proper investigations based on the costume, powers and background that the player choose for their character. I know that will help since there are a lot of responsible GMS who take their time and do their best to help all the players.
In the other hand, there are other GMS that if any player full of envy or a player who just want to ''protect'' the game from another law-suit, those will not help you at all and they will based their decision if there is a comic book character named Bird, Insect, Bug or Giant, the name can't be used by a player and they will put you on the generic line.
That is the main problem and i can think this could be your case with all the characters you had. At-least Abomination will be an obvious example.
Everyone's opinion count and after reading this, there are some others along Captain Electric which did their best to explain you this situation. There are a lot of us here who have a strong opinion regarding this issue and i hope this can be resolve for the best of all.
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Now now, Orcs and Orks are two different things to Games Workshop. |
Originally Posted by DMystic
Blizzard's Orcs are different from Games Workshop's Orks (Warhammer,W40K)
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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I remember, back in 2004, one of my first characters was a rad/rad defender... named Antimatter. I'm a slow leveller, so it took years (and a reroll to a rad/rad corruptor) before I realized that there was praetorian NPC named Anti-Matter (fun fact, I found out during an event in Pocket D where Posi was playing Anti-Matter. I don't know which of us was more weirded out).|
Originally Posted by Toy
I know how can you feel for what happened to you Abomination character. There are two Abomination NPCS. Abomination from the Halloween Trial and the Abomination Vahzilok minions. I know how contradictory this can be, since if we only point that the trademark violation is just for the character name, there will be a lot of trouble with the Abomination NPCS.
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So. Doh! I actually reported myself right away, and a couple of days later got a message from a GM saying it was fine. So I got to keep that name. I still have the character on virtue, though I eventually renamed him anyway.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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That dodges the whole argument, though:|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Actually the reason WoW can have orcs, is because Blizzard had already used Orcs in their Warcraft series.
Blizzard's Orcs are different from Games Workshop's Orks (Warhammer,W40K) which are different from Tolkiens Orcs I think the only overlap is between Tolkiens and D&D's, either way because Orcs have a usage that predates Tolkien's writings it's all good. |
IF Tolkien had made up the word "orc"
(... if, for example, he'd called their race "Ortutag" -- a word created and was thus exclusive to his work)
THEN others may find Tolkien's estate knocking on their door.
Because the word existed beforehand, the name itself is not copyright protected. he was not the creator of the word. he was a user of it. Had he created the word, he could reasonably claim some creative control over it. These other users of "orc" still had to make their fictional race vary somewhat from the Tolkien lore- relying on the "generic" elements common to the mythos, not using any orcish cities, town, or language specific to Tolkien, etc. Those elements would still fall under copyright.
If Tolkien had published his book in today's legal-literary environment
... A legal team would have scoured his work for distinctive elements. If there was a chance that the author may want to expand on that element further, perhaps a book detailing the world's orcish culture, they may have registered the trademark for "orc"-- essentially saying "No, we didn't create the word, but we plan on using it as a distinctive mark of trade in print publications." If that mark of trade wasn't put "in use" within a set amount of time, the trademark would cease, but until then, if granted, they'd have had exclusive right to it in that field.
I've got a friend that published a story that had, among other things, a dozen fictionally-named military registrants. The legal team advised all of them be submitted as registered trademarks, for just this purpose.
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That's a pretty interesting story.. Since another point of consideration is a name that is used by an npc. You got the name before Antimatter appears in the game. I read about a similar case with the Dr. Aeon name, before the character was introduced to the game.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I remember, back in 2004, one of my first characters was a rad/rad defender... named Antimatter. I'm a slow leveller, so it took years (and a reroll to a rad/rad corruptor) before I realized that there was praetorian NPC named Anti-Matter (fun fact, I found out during an event in Pocket D where Posi was playing Anti-Matter. I don't know which of us was more weirded out).
So. Doh! I actually reported myself right away, and a couple of days later got a message from a GM saying it was fine. So I got to keep that name. I still have the character on virtue, though I eventually renamed him anyway. |
It is nice that they let you keep the name. In the case of the OP, the problem was that he wasn't pointed out for the Abomination NPCS, he was pointed out for the Marvel Comics Abomination.
My personal experiences for the outcomes of this problems have being the GMS. The very responsible GMS took their time to investigate some of my characters and they even asked their supervisors before making their decision. I have done this with 4 different characters and everything has gone well with the responsible GMS.
I think your case was handled by one of them. Nice to see positive experiences with this type of case.
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Oh boy.. you tell me. I have Sakura in one specific server and this was a big worry for me when i took the name. I based my Sakura on the real meaning of the name= Cherry Blossom Tree for a Mutation Plant/Thorn Dominator. I use the City of Heroes plant costume set with supernatural face 12, which is a perfect choice for plant characters.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Well after reading that sentence I immediately thought of 3 Sakuras that are copyrighted. One for Magic,one for Natural and one that's a mix of Natural/Magic of course the three I'm thinking off are specific but the natural one is somewhat generic as well.
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A very nice and responsible member of the GM team work with my case and make the investigation. I'm glad everything went positive and he did understand that i have no intentions in imitating the 3 popular Sakura's= Kinomoto, Kasugano and Haruno.
In addition that Sakura is a very common female given name in Japan. The name is all good as long you don't use a school uniform with martial arts, pink ninja with healing powers and no magic staff and particular unique costumes one. LOL.. Most of Sakura Kinomoto's costumes are impossible to be made on CoH, so that is a very good thing
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Are you talking about Ashlynn Brooke?
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To be fair, that's two different situations. If you had a character called Frostfire, before the CoH writing team made up a character with that name (and honestly, I expect this happens every time they introduce a new NPC), you should be fine. I vaguely recall a rumour from when Citadel got his new name, but I don't recall any specifics.|
Originally Posted by Toy
That's a pretty interesting story.. Since another point of consideration is a name that is used by an npc. You got the name before Antimatter appears in the game. I read about a similar case with the Dr. Aeon name, before the character was introduced to the game.
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In my case, Anti-Matter already existed in lore. And, probably, somewhere in the 40+ game. I just wasn't aware of it 'till much later. But it was still ruled as being okay. Maybe because Antimatter and Anti-Matter are different enough names, or because they're fairly lenient about their own NPCs since they own everything we create in-game anyway, so it's not like I could claim ownership of either character. Or maybe you get brownie points for reporting yourself.
I don't know.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Actually, shouldn't it be Heracles? Hercules was a hearth god, I think.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
I'd like to see someone try to lay claim to a two to three-thousand year-old story and character that predates our civilization and its system of laws.
Hercules does not belong to Marvel, or DC, or Paramount, or Penguin Books, or Random House, or 20TH Century Fox, or any of the gazillion other comics, books, movies and TV shows that have adapted Hercules to their stories. But we, and they, are all welcome to use him in stories, because he belongs to Humanity. He is a campfire tale. |
disclaimer: Just being a pedant. It's a very nice character.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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Greek vs Roman pronunciations
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Originally Posted by MisterMagpie
Actually, shouldn't it be Heracles? Hercules was a hearth god, I think.
disclaimer: Just being a pedant. It's a very nice character. |
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My understanding has always been that he was pulling fairly liberally from old Germanic and Norse versions of elves (and many other creatures) for his works. In Norse myth at least elves (light elves anyway) were depicted as beautiful humans.|
Originally Posted by Lady Arete
(Also the idea of human sized elves with stories and mythology as humans have. Prior to him elves where akin to fairies.)
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I don't think they really became akin to fairies until later on in English folk-tales.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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I can buy that.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Greek vs Roman pronunciations
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In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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Those are very good points. I read one time that something similar happened with Frost Fire, before he was added to the game. The person explain the situation and he/she could keep-up the name.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
To be fair, that's two different situations. If you had a character called Frostfire, before the CoH writing team made up a character with that name (and honestly, I expect this happens every time they introduce a new NPC), you should be fine. I vaguely recall a rumour from when Citadel got his new name, but I don't recall any specifics.
In my case, Anti-Matter already existed in lore. And, probably, somewhere in the 40+ game. I just wasn't aware of it 'till much later. But it was still ruled as being okay. Maybe because Antimatter and Anti-Matter are different enough names, or because they're fairly lenient about their own NPCs since they own everything we create in-game anyway, so it's not like I could claim ownership of either character. Or maybe you get brownie points for reporting yourself. I don't know. |
Every responsible GM will be more than glad to us if we report ourselves and they will do all they can to resolve our worries. Even you re-name him, it was cool you could keep him for a good amount of time.
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If you mean "... and not anger the lore purists" sure.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Actually the reason WoW can have orcs, is because Blizzard had already used Orcs in their Warcraft series.
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otherwise, fail.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Originally Posted by MisterMagpie
Actually, shouldn't it be Heracles? Hercules was a hearth god, I think.
disclaimer: Just being a pedant. It's a very nice character. |
Oh man I seem to recall reading a paperback book on Greek mythology way back in high school that spelled it Herakles.
Hello everyone,
While this discourse on the ins and outs of trademark and copyrights is welcome, and helpful to new players for understanding, we would like to remind you all that the conversation should be kept civil and polite.
Also, conversations involving the actions of Game Masters is strictly forbidden in the City of Heroes: Freedom forums. If you have any questions on the policies, you may find our Forum Rules here.
We thank you for your continued polite conversation, and your understanding on these issues.
-=Mod9=-
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Person Cited WoW specifically. WoW is effectively a sequel to the Warcraft RTS. the RTS used Orcs extensively as the main enemy of the Horde faction for the Alliance faction to fight.|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
If you mean "... and not anger the lore purists" sure.
otherwise, fail. |
WOW can use Orcs because Blizzard had already done their homework/paperwork for the Warcraft franchise. Since WoW is a continuation of said franchise that homework/paperwork already applies.
Games existed before WoW basically.
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Heh funny thing apparently, one of the people on Union how use to play had a character named Lady Grey, apparently when they introduced Lady Grey they had to ask her if it was ok to use the name.
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Originally Posted by Toy
Those are very good points. I read one time that something similar happened with Frost Fire, before he was added to the game. The person explain the situation and he/she could keep-up the name.
Every responsible GM will be more than glad to us if we report ourselves and they will do all they can to resolve our worries. Even you re-name him, it was cool you could keep him for a good amount of time. |
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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It's even far more vague in the difference between dwarves and trolls.
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
It even has 'dark' and 'light' elves (also, the distinction between elves and dwarves is somewhat vague).
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Wow! this is a very interesting and funny thing. Now this is a very close case to the other 3 we mentioned above. Their action was a very nice and polite one |
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Heh funny thing apparently, one of the people on Union how use to play had a character named Lady Grey, apparently when they introduced Lady Grey they had to ask her if it was ok to use the name.
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. (in a positive way)
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Nothing existed that would have prevented them from adding orcs into WoW if they didn't have them in the Warcraft franchise previously, that's why I put in the bit about "lore purists".|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Person Cited WoW specifically. WoW is effectively a sequel to the Warcraft RTS. the RTS used Orcs extensively as the main enemy of the Horde faction for the Alliance faction to fight.
WOW can use Orcs because Blizzard had already done their homework/paperwork for the Warcraft franchise. Since WoW is a continuation of said franchise that homework/paperwork already applies. Games existed before WoW basically. |
Not having it in the Warcraft games is no bar to it not being in WoW. That's why I said fail.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Not even that - it's simply the Greek word for "victory", making it a logical name for a brand of athletic shoes/clothing.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Note that Nike is a name from mythology.
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Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit
I had my Perky Nipples genericed. And yes, I'm still mad about it. It was an Ice/Kin corruptor which is now named Mercury Tundra.
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More specifically, Nike is the goddess of strength, speed, and victory. It's the perfect brand name. |
Originally Posted by Mister Rik
Not even that - it's simply the Greek word for "victory", making it a logical name for a brand of athletic shoes/clothing.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
If you read a statement and find it to be absurd, rather than just take it based on your original interpretation, it's a good idea to see if it's possible to reinterpret the statement in a way that makes more sense.
Then the johnny-come-lately's popped in with their own misinterpretations of what I was talking to PRAF68 about, to which I explained my interpretation of the original post in question.