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This is what Diablo did, and it's also why I NEVER EVER EVER want to see smart AI ever again. Diablo had an enemy called a Succubus. All these winged women had was one blast - Blood Bolt, I think - that they spammed over and over again. If you tried to approach them, they would run in the opposite direction, and they ran exactly as fast as the player does, meaning they could keep a constant distance between you. As soon as you stopped chasing them, they'd stop running and shoot you. As soon as you tried to move away, they'd chase you and keep shooting as soon as you stopped. The ONLY way I found to kill them was to exploit their AI which only ever ran diametrically away from me, by forcing them to run into a corner where they couldn't back away. That, or take Fireball and sink a crapton of points into Magic.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It makes more sense to run thirty feet and then turn and start shooting again.
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I know we're not supposed to come down on other people's ideas - offering these is the point of the thread - but I just had to say something about this. One of the primary reasons I enjoy City of Heroes combat as much as I do is exactly because the enemies are stupid. I don't enjoy PvP because people aren't stupid and they won't stand in my damage aura patches and they won't clump together and they won't keep at a slugging match they obviously can't win. But the thing is that the smarter an enemy is, the less fun I have fighting that enemy because many of my tools simply don't work.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Right now the dumb AI causes the critter to run, and run, and run, and run, and run, and run. And when you chase them, they don't turn, fire, and then run. They run some more.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This is what Diablo did, and it's also why I NEVER EVER EVER want to see smart AI ever again.
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Are you saying you prefer that?
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There's smart and there's perfect, and perfect is impossible and not fun.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This is what Diablo did, and it's also why I NEVER EVER EVER want to see smart AI ever again. Diablo had an enemy called a Succubus. All these winged women had was one blast - Blood Bolt, I think - that they spammed over and over again. If you tried to approach them, they would run in the opposite direction, and they ran exactly as fast as the player does, meaning they could keep a constant distance between you. As soon as you stopped chasing them, they'd stop running and shoot you. As soon as you tried to move away, they'd chase you and keep shooting as soon as you stopped. The ONLY way I found to kill them was to exploit their AI which only ever ran diametrically away from me, by forcing them to run into a corner where they couldn't back away. That, or take Fireball and sink a crapton of points into Magic.
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I assumed (which is not always wise, granted) that Arcana was talking about behavior once the decision to flee had been made. Rather than the enemy fleeing to the far corner of the map then walking back, as they do currently, enemies would flee to an intelligent distance, then continue fighting. That's a different case than the enemy keeping a certain distance away at all times.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Well, yeah, at least our enemies eventually wander back to their spawn points so they CAN be killed. And at least when our enemies run away, they aren't constantly chasing me and lobbing Blood Bolts into my back. It's irritating on kill-all missions, but aside from those, you can just let a running enemy run and move on with your life. It's irritating, but it doesn't get me killed.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Right now the dumb AI causes the critter to run, and run, and run, and run, and run, and run. And when you chase them, they don't turn, fire, and then run. They run some more.
Are you saying you prefer that? |
My solution, of course, is to simply remove the enemy AI's ability to run away without being afflicted with an Afraid or Avoid effect. Under my rule, EVERY enemy would fight to the death to save me a trip.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
A couple of these wouldn't be raaaaaaaage inducing.
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Would you also be writing your resignation letter as you did this?
There are no words that were spoken during ED or the defense nerf that could possibly equal the rage that would be unleashed if this sort of change ever happened. I can't for the life of me een imagine WHY you would want to do this, since a team of 4 can alreadyfight spawns of 8.
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And people wonder why they added a skip cutscene button to FFXIII.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
You have just described several recent installments of the Metal Gear and Final Fantasy series.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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That's pretty much exactly why. Outside of raids and a few end-game TFs, there's really very little in this game that needs a team of 8. 8-player teams have more of the buff stacking issues other people keep addressing, more issues with massive AoE spam ruling the day, more chance of rendering some powersets obsolete, and so on. I honestly feel that the gameplay flows better with medium-sized teams in most circumstances.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Would you also be writing your resignation letter as you did this?
There are no words that were spoken during ED or the defense nerf that could possibly equal the rage that would be unleashed if this sort of change ever happened. I can't for the life of me een imagine WHY you would want to do this, since a team of 4 can alreadyfight spawns of 8. |
I've never felt like the team would do just as well if I turned off any given member turned off all their toggles and used nothing but Brawl on a team of 4. I have on a team of 8.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
That's pretty much exactly why. Outside of raids and a few end-game TFs, there's really very little in this game that needs a team of 8. 8-player teams have more of the buff stacking issues other people keep addressing, more issues with massive AoE spam ruling the day, more chance of rendering some powersets obsolete, and so on. I honestly feel that the gameplay flows better with medium-sized teams in most circumstances.
I've never felt like the team would do just as well if I turned off any given member turned off all their toggles and used nothing but Brawl on a team of 4. I have on a team of 8. |
So make it more difficult for teams of 8, don't eliminate them. Hate is a mild word for the way I'd feel about having the rug pulled out from under me like that. This is a game that has long provided the option to form largish teams, and rewriting that feature to turn this game into WoW at the last minute would be the first time I ever used the word "betrayal" to characterize a developer decision.
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Beyond a certain point, I don't think it makes any sense for the critters to even bother shooting back. All of them standing in a huddle without moving or rushing up right into AoE oblivion without exceptions crosses that line for me.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Well, yeah, at least our enemies eventually wander back to their spawn points so they CAN be killed. And at least when our enemies run away, they aren't constantly chasing me and lobbing Blood Bolts into my back. It's irritating on kill-all missions, but aside from those, you can just let a running enemy run and move on with your life. It's irritating, but it doesn't get me killed.
My solution, of course, is to simply remove the enemy AI's ability to run away without being afflicted with an Afraid or Avoid effect. Under my rule, EVERY enemy would fight to the death to save me a trip. |
But the question was what would I do that would cause players to hate me, and while most things I would not do specifically *because* they would generate player hate, improving the critter AI is something I would do in spite of knowing some players would hate me for it. And I suspected you'd be one of them.
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There is a social element to teaming that is orthogonal to the combat mechanics of teaming that makes this change something I would overrule if I was in charge, and I suspect the current design lead would do likewise. I actually considered this to be a noteworthy flaw of that recently released MMO with the four player team limit.|
Originally Posted by Kelenar
That's pretty much exactly why. Outside of raids and a few end-game TFs, there's really very little in this game that needs a team of 8. 8-player teams have more of the buff stacking issues other people keep addressing, more issues with massive AoE spam ruling the day, more chance of rendering some powersets obsolete, and so on. I honestly feel that the gameplay flows better with medium-sized teams in most circumstances.
I've never felt like the team would do just as well if I turned off any given member turned off all their toggles and used nothing but Brawl on a team of 4. I have on a team of 8. |
Also that same feeling you get that anyone is replaceable on a team of eight means teams can better dynamically handle players entering and leaving the team. In smaller teams, a single player dropping out can disintegrate the team. The law of unintended consequences says that when you make things more valuable, you make their loss more critical. You cannot have one without the other. By definition if you are necessary your loss is intolerable. If your loss is tolerable, you're not necessary.
In either case, its obviously possible to make games with smaller team limits, so its not impossible to implement such a limit here. But doing so would dramatically change this game into something else completely different separate from altering the combat power limit of a single team.
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It should be put up on a pike, so I can read it over again, and wave, like this. *fingers* |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
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Can you and your "associates" arrange that for me?
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Will you hold up your other hand behind you head to pretend you have a hair frill?
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Oh thanks, I just inhaled lemonade up my nose from laughing.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
It should be put up on a pike, so I can read it over again, and wave, like this. *fingers*
Can you and your "associates" arrange that for me? |
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
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I'd log on with my stone tank and chug slowly down the street until I had spawned enough enemies to crash the server.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Adding to the list:
Turn the things that irritate about invasions up to 11. - Create a new group that does a lot of self buffing. (Think mix of, oh, Romans and Nemesis.) - Crank up the "drop" times - if you stand still for 3 seconds, I hope you like playing at x8... - Pre-buff, they're very resistant and somewhat hard to hit. - On death, they do the carnie end drain mechanic (autohit, guaranteed 50% END loss.) - ... with a twist. (And can cut your END bar down 50%.) - Plus they have sappers. - that also gut your recovery. - And marksmen-like mobs with *lots* of cold attacks to hit your recharge. - Of course, in groups they buff their defense. - And have very effective healing mobs that spam an AOE clear mind. - That stacks. I'd be nice, though, and leave an AOE vulnerability... - and completely nonexistant resistance to knockback. Brawl sends them back 50 feet. ... after which more spawn. Oh. And they'll happily spawn under covered areas, in buildings, even in SG bases. So, who wants an invasion?! >.> |
I would make saboteurs that break line of sight and attempt to place a proximity mine for anyone that's chasing them.
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To date I only have two Hami-Os among all of my characters, and neither of them has been slotted. Back in those early days I was holding out hope that there would be some game decisions bringing negative consequences, but so far there's only Efficiency Expert (where the negative consequence comes from caring about the badge).
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
Note to OP: I was one of those who absolutely refused, back in the day, to stick bits of the Hamidon in my character(s) and who really wanted to see that come back and bite those who did someday.
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@Glass Goblin - Writer, brainstormer, storyteller, hero
Though nothing will drive them away
We can beat them, just for one day
We can be heroes, just for one day
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I approve of your message and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So, who wants an invasion?! >.>
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@Glass Goblin - Writer, brainstormer, storyteller, hero
Though nothing will drive them away
We can beat them, just for one day
We can be heroes, just for one day
You know how we have topics that are all "Okay, the four-legged rig was cool at first, but can we move onto something else now?"
That's what they'd be saying about me after a few months, except instead of "four-legged rig", it'd be "dragons".
(Granted, my dragons would also use the four-legged rig, so it'd be the best of both complaints)
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[Insert Elder Scrolls V Joke]|
Originally Posted by Thunder Knight
You know how we have topics that are all "Okay, the four-legged rig was cool at first, but can we move onto something else now?"
That's what they'd be saying about me after a few months, except instead of "four-legged rig", it'd be "dragons". (Granted, my dragons would also use the four-legged rig, so it'd be the best of both complaints) |
Dragons would be wicked cool though >_>;. Especially a dragon AV/Monster/Giant Monster for an arc end boss, TF end boss, or Trial.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
I've given it more thought.
The change log for the next issue would include a short note buried amongst all the goodies:
"Updated server-side random number generator to use a new algorithm."
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Relevant xkcd: http://xkcd.com/221/
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Originally Posted by Ardrea
I've given it more thought.
The change log for the next issue would include a short note buried amongst all the goodies: "Updated server-side random number generator to use a new algorithm." |
...I forgot what experience means.
Okay, let's see here. If I were a dev I would be on the art team, so:
1) NPC-only costume parts. Oh, you guys want to be able to use this piece that I intended to be a signature part of this unique character's look? TOUGH PATOOTIES, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT.
2) Bustiers for everyone! And by that I mean "everyone who plays a female toon."
,'&#
{}... .-
01234
"*_
?;!hgfauirebcew
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That was never a problem - the problem was when it was only bustiers/corsets.
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Originally Posted by FlashToo
Bustiers for everyone!
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
1) Get rid of the free play and the free players
2) Remove Death from Below, so any free loader's who wish to pay to play have to play the game the proper way to lvl 50
3) Close the server's off, everyone goes back to their main server. Any toon made on another will also go there with the ability to re-name it if needed.
Much much less inf for everyone, on a much much less dramatic curve, and many more ways of having your inf taken away.
Round of nerfs for melee mez protection (and round of nerfs for KB-inflicting critter attacks.)
Round of nerfs for containment, Tanker damage, Scrapper damage, possibly Brute damage.
To make it so Scrappers couldnt solo AVs if built for it, thusly requiring a team all the time, would make this feel less like superheroes, and more like weak modern sword and fantasy. then possibly leaving Brutes as is, which is already close to Scrappers (if not surpassing them) in Damage (if built for it) and more survivalable.
Yup. I'd hate you.
Though the weaker mez protection. Hmmm...depends on how weak. Something I thought would be interresting, is to change how KB works.
Enemy attacks with something using KB. It has a chance to do knockback (from 1-100%) if the attacks hits and the KB triggers, then the Mez Protection doesn't stop the KB, it gives a percent chance to avoid the KB.
Tankers could have the higher chance to avoid it, then Brutes, then Scrappers, then Stalkers. Let's say 85%, 75%, 65% and 55%.
The KB IOs can then give a percent chance to avoid KB (maybe 5%) that's stackable.
But then KB never bothered me. Getting ping ponged through the map did. Every once and awhile, and KB becomes awesomely themetic!
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