I've found the KD from staff extremely useful. I think I'm up to running against 1x8 Talons of Vengeance on my 50+0 (I don't want to try 2x8 until I get more +acc from my alpha) and KD is a big part of my survival.
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My calculations on Staff are incomplete because ironically I've been spending too much time actually playing my Staff alt, but that's not inconsistent with the estimates I've been generating for Staff. For Tankers, I would currently estimate Staff to have slightly below average single target, and significantly above average AoE numerically, and in median or ordinal terms (meaning by rank instead of by value) its about average in single target and above average in AoE.|
Originally Posted by RadDidIt
He's running the numbers. It's ST is mid-performance, while it's AoE is slightly above.
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I'd be interested to see Krogoth's methodology myself.
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I'm curious as well.
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I also rank Battle Axe and War Mace waaaaay up there on mitigation. Against foes that are susceptible to knock, battle axe is simply superb.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
So I'm hearing this, for secondary powerset mitigation:
Staff Fighting --
Ice Melee --
Dark Melee --
I was putting Staff behind Dark Melee for tanker mitigation, with Ice Melee third, but after looking at these lists Staff might belong on top. With that said, who cares how much damage it deals? As long as it isn't unplayably weak -- and it isn't -- it's a golden secondary for tanks. |
Of course, the downside to that now that Incarnate levels are usable in DA is that all that KD becomes KB. I don't play my axer much against Banished Pantheon, it's waaaaay too frustrating.
...ya know, it's just really annoying how the dev's have slowly whittled away at Battle Ax. (sigh) Oh, well, there's lots of things at incarnate levels that are hard to KB.
Of course, then you don't get any mitigation against them....
All right, nm, I changed my mind about Battle Ax. (depressed now)
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The primary can make a difference to the secondary and it can bring about a distorted subjective view. I am not sure if you even know all the full pros and cons to a powerset as you give your opinion or even if you've ever played them.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Why would I list the primary New Damn? The OP is talking about the secondary by it's self not the primary. Also, I am a kid in a candy store and I love reviewing old and new powersets if the discussions arises. If that offends you or if I said anything in those threads to offend you I apologize but that is just something that I really like to research and debate!
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I play every powerset ingame, some more than once, make no mistake oh except earth assault. I am very intolerant of someone not grasping the full scope of a powerset and then waylaying it at every opportunity hoping to change the powers within a set, powers that belong to my toons. I play these things and I am not wandering around going this is weaker than that because I do see the relevence and importance of why things are the way they are.
You are like a kid in a sweetstore when it comes to changes. I play all the sets you talk about and don't agree with you but that's okay most people disagree with me but atleast I am not the one either struggling or clearly failing to read what was said on the box when I bought my new toy.
I want Arbiter Hawk focusing on new changes rather than make balance passes over what's already had umpteen balance passes.
This Staff might need adjusting, I don't doubt that but when it comes to everything else that's been about for years I am highly doubtful unless its PvP whereby in that case, may as well start from scratch and have power trees.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
For Tankers, I would currently estimate Staff to have slightly below average single target, and significantly above average AoE numerically, and in median or ordinal terms (meaning by rank instead of by value) its about average in single target and above average in AoE.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
LOL, *sigh* Whatever New Dawn. I get it...I really do. You're the perfect player and we are all flawed compared to your greatness.
I'm glad that you have resorted to name calling now you're moving up!
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Seeing as how I've been saying that (or at least something that sounds kinda like that) for eight years, I'm inclined to agree in general. However, I don't see where its relevant to a specific line of discussion surrounding the damage output of the set.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
All of the secondaries are meant to be a bit more of this and a bit less of the other. One set may have X whilst another has Y. Someone with one toon may then be encouraged to play another without deleting the toon they're currently on because they want to experience both flexibilities. I don't expect to Excel TW, STJ or Staff and find something I can conclusively say is an inbalance. They do lack qualities. The value of these qualities differ from person to person. When certain traits are given, they are in place of other traits. The value of each trait is rather subjective but that's just to provide different courses for different horses because we will appreciate different things.
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Isn't Guarded Spin alone makes it a very good Tanker set? It is a pretty good cone attack in itself and you get +defense for free. I say "for free" because unlike Parry, you don't lose much by using it. Guarded Spin can easily hit more than 2 targets and the damage is decent. Parry's damage isn't decent...
Its ST damage will be on the lower side but you have 3 aoe.
And also, I could be wrong on this but I believe Staff is the only set that has -defense in tier 1 power for Tanker? You can put AH proc and that can produce up to 40% resistance debuff?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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It definitely does. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
So I'm hearing this, for secondary powerset mitigation:
Staff Fighting --
I was putting Staff behind Dark Melee for tanker mitigation, with Ice Melee third, but after looking at these lists Staff might belong on top. |
When used on a Tanker, Guarded Spin gives 15% defense.
And Sky Splitter gives 10% resistance for Tankers.
Pair those with the ability to have an additional 33% global end reduction on top of the defense it gives you and it pulls ahead a bit more (though you can't have the end reduction and +Resistance at the same time)
I have a DA/Staff tank, and I haven't had endurance problems at all since level 20 when I got Staff Mastery. That's a huge benefit for Dark Armor in particular.
It is not always damage output that makes a set good. Ice Control and Earth Control are very good control sets, but their damage output is....anemic to say the least.
Staff Fighting for Tankers isn't a high damage set, but it is a very good set if you want to be a good tanker.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Was playing my Ice/Stone last night and had a Ice/Staff join. I am very happy with my Ice/Stoner and intentionally avoided Staff because I'm already playing a Staff/Willpower scrapper. But I gotta say that as incredibly endurable as my guy is, I have to wonder just how over the top an Ice/Staff tanker gets. I am not sure mitigation is going to get any better (becuase when you pop Energy Absorption in a large crowd you're not going to want for too much more) but you do have Guarded Spin to add to your portfolio. The wealth of AE though on top of your choice of settings--extra damage, bonus recharge, or lower endurance costs. . .well, I'm guessing you'd go with extra recovery since Energy Absorption is providing you with endurance as you need it and damage over time should be best that way, right?
Under construction
Well, sad as it makes me, I am not in love with my staff tanker either. I played mine to 50 running TFs, Missions and have quite a bit of time on him. He has most of his accolades and so forth...
He is SR/Staff which does have good synergy and is tough enough with the rare use of aid-self on AV alpha that gets past my capped defense.
I do feel like I am killing baddies though by papercut...it may simply be perception but it does not feel like I am doing all that much damage. I am at ed-cap on dmg/accuracy, slotted achilles, musculature, reactive radial, and perma-hasten. I will likely park him for a while. I may try a brute or scrapper as staff may perform more to my liking there.
Cheers.
I'm coming into this a bit late and some of what I am going to say has probably already been said.
First, Tankers and Brutes are two entirely different ATs. Expecting the exact same results from both of your characters is going to have you looking for something that simply isn't there. Yes, both of them can perform similar functions. But, both of them still have their own niche.
IMHO, Tankers are more specialized to be able to be the "hard target." You aren't going to be putting out OMFG damage. But, on the reverse, you can survive things that no one else can... and, if you look at how Gauntlet/Taunt works on a tanker, it doesn't expect you to really do a lot in order to accomplish your goals. Tankers can do excellent damage, but expecting the huge numbers that a Brute gets is rather foolish.
That being said, I have found (like others have said) that Staff is a set similar to maybe Dual Blades. The idea is to be continuously doing damage with very little downtime in the attack chain. No single attack is going to do uber amazing damage. But, given the amount of damage you can put out thru the whole chain, you should be able to eat through mobs at a steady rate.
If you are having trouble, there has to be something in your build that is needing attention. I do have a Staff Brute who does pretty good damage with it. I also have an /Axe tanker who performs well on the damage front. Neither of them would be considered damage kings but they bring enough damage to satisfy my needs.
So, I'd look at your slotting. Bring on all those damage bonuses, etc and see if you can't get your damage higher.
@ Dr Gemini
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Hi Dr Gemini,
Teamed with you plenty on Freedom in the past (you and I have compared notes on ice tanks and discussed role of aid-self). I agree, tanks and brutes are different.
My issue is more of how I percieve this tank. My invuln/dm, elec/dm and even ice/fire tanks feel tough and very fun to play. While my staff/sr tank fully built (again with 2 procs in most attacks unless it gets the achilles or pvp -res IO) just does not feel uber tough like my elec/dm or higher dmg like /SS. I guess that is where the set bugs me. I can certainly take and hold aggro. Held LR tonight so that is not my problem. To echo the OP, it just does not feel like I am contributing as much to dmg as I should. Again, it could be perception b/c of all they tiny ticks of dmg but that is how I percieve it. It almost reminds me of energy melee...It is better BUT has the same kind of feeling after playing it for an hour or so.
Anyway, I am happy to hear from experts that AOE is above average. Again, may be my perception b/c DOT.
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By uber tough, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean your ability to take damage? That's usually what people mean by "tough," and SR is going to be weaker in that regard than other sets. It's trivially easy to build gobs of positional defense with it, but you are going to notice hits more when they get in. That said, my level 36 SR/Staff Tanker has had no issues tanking for large teams up until that point (on the TFs available to that point: most recently a Katie Hannon TF). At this point, getting Aid Self almost seems silly, but I'm sure he'll want it in Incarnate content so I'll keep it in the build.|
Originally Posted by ORACLE
Hi Dr Gemini,
Teamed with you plenty on Freedom in the past (you and I have compared notes on ice tanks and discussed role of aid-self). I agree, tanks and brutes are different. My issue is more of how I percieve this tank. My invuln/dm, elec/dm and even ice/fire tanks feel tough and very fun to play. While my staff/sr tank fully built (again with 2 procs in most attacks unless it gets the achilles or pvp -res IO) just does not feel uber tough like my elec/dm or higher dmg like /SS. I guess that is where the set bugs me. I can certainly take and hold aggro. Held LR tonight so that is not my problem. To echo the OP, it just does not feel like I am contributing as much to dmg as I should. Again, it could be perception b/c of all they tiny ticks of dmg but that is how I percieve it. It almost reminds me of energy melee...It is better BUT has the same kind of feeling after playing it for an hour or so. Anyway, I am happy to hear from experts that AOE is above average. Again, may be my perception b/c DOT. |
But you seem to be discussing damage more. Why are you just looking at what the orange numbers say (and by that, I mean the large amounts of orange numbers that add up)? Look at how many attacks you have to use. Between Guarded Spin and Eye of the Storm, +0 and +1 minions are dead or nearly dead (depends on procs and forms and all that). That's not quite as good as Burn + Fire Sword Circle, but that's still quite good for AOE. It's certainly as good and satisfying as Crowd Control + Shatter, which is a good AOE combo for War Mace.
I obviously haven't gotten to Sky Splitter on Live, but I did have it on Test, and I didn't notice anything out of line for Staff's ST damage in the 40s. It's not as good as Fiery Melee, sure, but that's as it should be. Nothing to cause the alarm I'm seeing in this thread. Yeesh, I get too busy at the end of the semester and the Tanker Forum has gone to the Americans! when it comes so Staff Fighting.
Seriously... Staff opens up its AOE and ST capability well before other well known tanker sets (War Mace is less than awesome for AOE before level 35, and ST isn't all that great for Fire Melee before 35), so that's one nice thing when it comes to leveling. And as I pointed out above, it's doing fine in its performance for me. Looking at its numbers in CoD, it doesn't seem particularly out of whack for its damage numbers, plus it does decent debuff and mitigation.
Really, my biggest worries are whether I should pick up Innocuous Strikes or not. I'd probably have to drop an ST attack for it, though, since I don't see its damage quite beating out the mitigation from Guarded Spin and Eye of the Storm, particularly for my SR Tanker.
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Context is the key. Dr. Gemini was referencing the role of a tanker. I was pointing out I have no trouble doing my job with this tank but acknowledging limitations of defense based (SR) set.
Regarding damage which was the OPs point and the subject of my original post, I used the word Percieve/Perception liberally. I agree with Dr. G that it does feel like dual blades...the animations are great but Staff is just not my cup of tea as it stands.
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I can get not liking it more for how it adds up all its numbers (like Dual Blades), though it still seems so odd to me. It's not like how Flame Thrower or even Burn used to be, with a long, drawn out DoT. Wanting one big number versus 2-3 adding up to relatively the same amount in the same time just seems like a big perception issue.|
Originally Posted by ORACLE
Context is the key. Dr. Gemini was referencing the role of a tanker. I was pointing out I have no trouble doing my job with this tank but acknowledging limitations of defense based (SR) set.
Regarding damage which was the OPs point and the subject of my original post, I used the word Percieve/Perception liberally. I agree with Dr. G that it does feel like dual blades...the animations are great but Staff is just not my cup of tea as it stands. |
But hey, I enjoy my "Hulk Smash" War Mace and Super Strength sets, so I can kind of get the perception (as long as it doesn't disregard the overall balance numbers).
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Quote:
While I am almost inclined to agree with most of your post, Ice Melee is by far the worst melee set damage wise for tanks, most likey due to some of its control-typed powers, but it's damage is a snore.|
Originally Posted by RadDidIt
Staff Fighting on Tanks is the worst melee set, damage-wise, period. |
EDIT:
I find that a tank with a damage aura compliments staff that much more. I am really enjoying my stone/staff tank atm. He is 33/34 the tools in staff (especially the forms) really really really compliments stone.
I am a fan of "stack dem dots" when I play a set that divides its damage up like staves, db, some fire attacks, etc. So things like mud pots add a bit more umph to your overall DPS.
I tried SR and while a fan of the set, it does not work well for staff for me, unfortunately. That and I have too many SR toons anyway >.>
There are a number of reasons why SR is not a good match for staff:
1) It can cap defence easily without Guarded Spin;
2) It doesn't have resistance to stack with the +10%, making that significantly less useful;
3) Since Staff doesn't have BU, the +Recharge from quickness doesn't increase DPS to the extent that it does with some other sets.
4) It's not an end hog, so FoS is of limited benefit;
5) It isn't dependant on long cooldown clicks (apart from Elude), so FoM is of limited benefit;
6) No damage aura in SR.
My preferred partner sets for Tanker staff are Dark, Fire and Stone.
I really should do something about this signature.
I suspect part of the impression of poor damage is coming from the fact that all of Staff's AoEs are DoT powers.
One big number makes an impression of lots of damage. Lots of smaller numbers don't, even if they add up to be MORE than the one big number.
I recall Dual Blades getting a lot of flack for the same reason, until it was conclusively proven that it is firmly in the upper half of damage sets.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Actually, it's overall end redux, so for a toggle heavy set like SR FoS is very hepful to the set for that and stacked defense as well as recharge w/ Quickness and hasten.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
There are a number of reasons why SR is not a good match for staff:
1) It can cap defence easily without Guarded Spin; 2) It doesn't have resistance to stack with the +10%, making that significantly less useful; 3) Since Staff doesn't have BU, the +Recharge from quickness doesn't increase DPS to the extent that it does with some other sets. 4) It's not an end hog, so FoS is of limited benefit; 5) It isn't dependant on long cooldown clicks (apart from Elude), so FoM is of limited benefit; 6) No damage aura in SR. My preferred partner sets for Tanker staff are Dark, Fire and Stone. |
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Technically, SR has the scaling passives. Whether an extra 10% matters or not is a matter of opinion, but an SR tanker that takes tough would have significant potential s/l resistance to stack with that.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
2) It doesn't have resistance to stack with the +10%, making that significantly less useful
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You could also make the case that the end discount in staff could make it easier to run tough in the first place (albeit these are non-concurrent benefits).
Perhaps SR is not the best primary for Staff for a Tanker, but Staff might be a decent primary for SR with its optional features of end discount, +regeneration, and +resistance.
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That and comparing to Brutes and group/forum think... the OP's "feelings" about the set come from going from a Brute to a Tank. There aren't any numbers with that, just a feeling. There should be a weakening between the two, given the design, so that shouldn't be a surprise. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I suspect part of the impression of poor damage is coming from the fact that all of Staff's AoEs are DoT powers.
One big number makes an impression of lots of damage. Lots of smaller numbers don't, even if they add up to be MORE than the one big number. I recall Dual Blades getting a lot of flack for the same reason, until it was conclusively proven that it is firmly in the upper half of damage sets. |
And with this thread, I'm sure people will forum think into believing the set is weaker. Someone on a team earlier this week asked me if Staff really was bad for Tankers, given what he had read on the forums. Sure, he was questioning it somewhat by asking me my opinion, but most players aren't necessarily going to do that, from my experience.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Technically, SR has the scaling passives. Whether an extra 10% matters or not is a matter of opinion, but an SR tanker that takes tough would have significant potential s/l resistance to stack with that.
You could also make the case that the end discount in staff could make it easier to run tough in the first place (albeit these are non-concurrent benefits). Perhaps SR is not the best primary for Staff for a Tanker, but Staff might be a decent primary for SR with its optional features of end discount, +regeneration, and +resistance. |
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Quote:
Sure, and I made certain I didn't spay it had absolutely nothing to stack with the resistance. It's very situational though. And I'm not suggesting that SR/Staff sucks, just that it doesn't get as much leverage as some of the other powersets staff can be paired with. A number of the people not liking staff have it pared with SR.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Technically, SR has the scaling passives. Whether an extra 10% matters or not is a matter of opinion, but an SR tanker that takes tough would have significant potential s/l resistance to stack with that.
You could also make the case that the end discount in staff could make it easier to run tough in the first place (albeit these are non-concurrent benefits). Perhaps SR is not the best primary for Staff for a Tanker, but Staff might be a decent primary for SR with its optional features of end discount, +regeneration, and +resistance. |
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| Actually, it's overall end redux, so for a toggle heavy set like SR FoS is very hepful to the set for that and stacked defense as well as recharge w/ Quickness and hasten. |
One of the advantages of Stone/Staff is that without BU -recharge doesn't hurt damage quite as much as some of the other sets.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Because the damage output of a set and secondary effect output of a set have a relationship.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Seeing as how I've been saying that (or at least something that sounds kinda like that) for eight years, I'm inclined to agree in general. However, I don't see where its relevant to a specific line of discussion surrounding the damage output of the set.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
So I'm hearing this, for secondary powerset mitigation:
Staff Fighting --
Ice Melee --
Dark Melee --
I was putting Staff behind Dark Melee for tanker mitigation, with Ice Melee third, but after looking at these lists Staff might belong on top.
With that said, who cares how much damage it deals? As long as it isn't unplayably weak -- and it isn't -- it's a golden secondary for tanks.
...
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