Form shifting on beta

Except said AT's don't juggle forms or require binds to play efficiently. Maybe it's only my opinion that khelds require binds to perform well but I don't have issues playing my defender or dominator without them. Try playing a kheld without binds after you have and it's brutal.

I'll agree that the shields were poorly designed, but since when is a lack of mez protection such a bad thing? Sure it doesn't help the current standing of the AT but they're not the only AT devoid of any kind of mez protection. (outside of Light form anyway)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the majority of the playerbase probably don't utilize binds and this may only contribute to the negative stereotype associated with kheldians considering the typical performance pre-binds or even pre-io's.

Except that playing to cap doesn't mean squat. Hasn't for a long time seeing as how one can get to 50 in the less than a day.

I'm not oblivious to the flaws of the HEAT's but I don't think that necessarily means they're broken.

Let's see some comments I recall:
Mind/Energy: Telekenesis. "Why are you pushing me away from your biggest attacks again?"
People complain about Ice - AOE hold vs Ice Slick.
Ice/Energy - see mind, keeping ice slick in mind.
Dark Armor brutes (stunned/terrorized enemies don't attack, less fury built.)

... just with half a second of thinking about it.

And have powers of their own. No other ATs have forms or anything close. Strawman/moot.
Most of the ones you mention don't have shields until their APP/PPP, and those shields for the most part don't give mez protection. (Exceptions: Force fields, Sonic, and the Psi APP for Controllers and doms.)

Domination on doms was a major component of their AT. That was broken at introduction. That got fixed.

Stalkers are (finally) fixed.

If they felt PBs were as "broken" as you want to indicate, history suggests they'd be "fixed" by now. So perhaps it's just your perception. Yes, there are tweaks that can be done. But that's a LONG way from "broken."
Your posts here don't indicate it.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Brawndo?

If you can't play an AT with the default UI, it's broken.

It's not the lack of mez protection. It's the lack of mez protection + resistance shields.

As for synergy, having three toggles on an AT that's often having to turn them off by switching forms...lol.


Got a blaster, controller and defender to 50 in the pre-CoV days. It took a little longer than a day then.

Those combos aren't the whole AT.


Resistance shields + lack of mez is stupid. The APP resistance shields are ignored by most people who know what they're doing. Instead they trek over to the Rogue Isles for Scorpion Shield.

Let's not engage in selective history. Dominators went through two major changes, the last of which abandoned the original premise of the AT (Jekyll and Hyde) to make them Blasters with significantly better controls and mez protection.

Stalkers went through three major revamps, the last of which abandoned the original premise of the AT to make them Scrappers with a significantly better inherent.

I would be thrilled if they would abandon the original premise of Khelds (reliance on form shifting and specific team buffs) to make Khelds into something more like the SoA. How many times have they had to buff this AT? We're on six last IIRC. I may have lost count. And yet they refuse to do the things that would actually make the majority fall in love with these sets.

VEAT storyline = Screw Recluse and the spider he rode in on, I'm in it for me.

HEAT storyline = Something about the Council and the Nictus...who knows I stopped after the three kill all missions in a row.

Yeah, I'll praise the VEAT storyline. It gets to the point. Yes, it's short, but short does not equal bad.

You can't easily compare HEATs to everything else that way. They have one set of powers to choose from, so comparing it to other singular sets of powers is not unreasonable.

If you want to play an SoA that bad, play an SoA and stop trying to turn Khelds into them. That would be terrible. SoAs are much too toggle and forget. They are easy to play, khelds are not. HEATs are more versatile, VEATs are more stable. Turning one into the other does not fix things, it just screws over the people (who are the majority here) who like how the AT functions. Yes, it needs some tweaks, and this is a big one. If they add in Toggle Supression and change a few of the PB's attacks (solar flare...) to KD instead of KB, it would solve all the 'major' problems with them.

As for lack of mez protection, hello Dwarf. Also, for warshades at least (not experienced with PBs), there are numerous ways to protect yourself from mezes. Kill them, mez them first, have fluffy take it, ect. Mez protection doesn't only come in the form of numbers.

No, VEAT storyline, such as it is, is not that.
So you have no place to really say anything about its theme, now, do you?
No, bad, unfinished and unfocused equals bad. Which the VEAT storyline is. And the contents of which you still couldn't be bothered to remember, which is another strike against it being "good."

Frankly, you get more done and have a bigger impact, storywise, by the time you're in the 30s in the Kheld arcs than you have the slightest *chance* of having in the SOAs by 50. And you learn more about the Fortunatas and Banes in a *non* VEAT arc (Phipps) than you do in the entirety of the VEAT 1-50 run. That's not good. That's *pathetic.*

See my Guides and Tutorials

Those are just quick examples.
"Play my way or you're wrong" doesn't really fly with me. You should know that by now.

Yes, Dominators went through the change you mentioned. Why? *Because they were broken.* Not to the point of unplayability, but they were badly broken. Why? Because the original premise did not work.

Thanks for reinforcing my point.
Stalkers got a major improvement, yes. They did not, however, abandon the original premise of the AT. Stealth, spike with followup. If you think that having an AS you can now use as part of an attack chain "breaks the premise," then quite frankly you must have been playing the "AS - placate - run away" game - in other words, you were a bad stalker.

My stalkers have *always* stayed to scrap it out, since issue 6. Eat a hit so placate isn't broken, get the crit I want, keep scrapping.

Except that some of us don't particularly *care* for the SOA, and like the AT *because* of the form shifting. If we wanted to play SOAs, we'd roll SOAs and be talking in the SOA forum.
"The Majority" doesn't play epics of either stripe. The Epic ATs have always been at the bottom of the AT lists. Plus, quite frankly, "The majority" wants easy. "The Majority" likes Survivor, autotuned pop music and McDonalds.

Some of us prefer better.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I second this! Thanks so much guys for the needed love these past few issues.

QFT. Best way I've ever heard it put.

It looks like Arbiter Hawk agrees with you. Hence the pop-up bar when you form shift.

Complete rubbish. You're comparing an archetypes with multiple powersets to archetypes that have exactly one primary and one secondary powerset.

Never mind the fact that kheldian powersets have more than nine powers each. OF COURSE some of them are going to be less than synergistic, because you've got ONE powerset that's trying to be as flexible towards playstyles as possible within the boundaries of a single set. If your build lacks synergy then you chose poorly when you chose your powers.



Not having mez protection on a kheldian is a playstyle choice, not a design choice. You want mez protection? You get it at 20 with dwarf. Don't want dwarf? Team with controllers. Kheldians get mez protection. It's the method by which it's gained that gives some players heartburn.

And yes, using dwarf for a breakfree means you toggle off your shields. See what I said above about the number of powers in the set reflecting multiple playstyles. If you chose the shields on a build that shifts forms a lot, you chose poorly. If, on the other hand, you chose the shields on a build that can expect to stay in human form for extended periods (like a human form build with perma light form) congratulations - you know what you're doing.


Wait wait wait. So let me get this straight. Above you ignore the methods for Kheldians getting mez protection when you say they have none, but here you say Doms have mez protection, even though they get it only through filling their domination bar and clicking on a power? Thaaaat can only be made perma with heavy IO investment?

I can't decide if it's a double standard or pure sophistry. I'm going with sophistry.

What Bill said. I'll admit I was one of the most skeptical forumites around when they were talking about the changes, but those changes didn't invalidate the stalker premise. I still play my stalkers as effectively and with the same playstyle as I did before.

You know what? You should have stopped with your crusade against the old MoG. You're usually so well reasoned, so it might not mean much when I say this, but this is by far the dumbest thing I've ever seen you type.

Kheldians don't depend on form shifting, inherent teammate buffs or anything except being flexible. Otherwise human form soloists wouldn't be so prevalent and effective. Kheldians solo AV's, RWZ Pylons, and practically everything else that other archetypes solo. Form shifting and teammates not necessary.

Now, had you debated the effectiveness of that flexibility I'd have had to agree....

...But don't come into the kheldian forums and urinate on the archetype without at least demonstrating some knowledge of the archetype's current condition. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying you're not smart (aren't you a lawyer or something IRL?) and I'm not saying you don't have a thorough knowledge of the game in general.

I'm saying your knowledge of kheldians appears to be... dated. Possibly because you haven't played your level-capped kheldians in a while.

But it's before sunrise on a Saturday and I've been called in to work. I'm already annoyed and I'm in no mood to mince words. You've added nothing productive to this - or any - discussion on kheldians.

So if you're going to insist on hanging out here, the least you could do is something helpful. Remember back in the day when you demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt the uselessness of the the old MoG? (and gosh I'm hoping I remember correctly that it was you - it is early) If you feel that strongly about khelds then by all means post another epic thread like that.

For my part, removing the cast times from form shifting is a big step in addressing my problems with the viability of the forms, and Hawk is closing the gap between peacebringers and warshades.

I may not agree with his methods, but I have the sense to know when my concerns are being addressed. My disagreement stems from playstyle, vise design, and if the playstyle doesn't match me personally I can always ::glares at TwoHeadedBoy:: go play my Willpower tanker.

But with the removal of shifting times I might have to give my kheldians a spin again. Who knows? I might just have to finance an IO build for my warshade and go turn Mot into a fluffy.

Why would you even take the shields if you're already perma lightform? Geko is absolutely right, the shields are useless. Tri-form, they drop everytime you shift, human-form, they're redundant since lightform already caps your resistance anyway. That's 3 powers in your secondary right there, wasted due to bad AT design.

Geko's simply stating the obvious. You can keep defending Peacebringer vicissutudes all you want, but he'll still be right. No other AT in the game pays so much to get so little, and I'm talking from a lvl 53 perma-lightform experience. Also, team with more Controllers might not be the right thing to point out concerning PB mez protection, not when you need at least 3 Controllers in the team to achieve a minimum of Mag 3 status protection...

The shields are useless? What about if you want to try leveling up without forms? Since you know, Kheldians are versatile and don't START at level 50? Leveling a Kheld with the resist shields and no forms is about as good as leveling any other AT that is designed to be durable, minus mez protection, the T9's are just icing on the cake from that perspective. At the high end, I'll go a week without posting (and that's a big deal for me) if any other build in the game, tankers included, can prove themselves to be as broadly survivable as my human form Warshade on 54x8, no enemy groups barrered.

Yeah playing a PB is so hard. Playing a PB is dull as hell for me compared to my Warshade and my Blaster (read: The definition of tankmages in COH.) You click a few powers every so often. Oh, so hard. Duz not compute. Click LF when it's up. Use one of your fast cycling heals for the HP crash, the -end doesn't do -recovery so it can be completley ignored every other converve power cycle- Other than that, eat a blue or hit Ageless and qq.

So you have experience playing a perma LF PB and still think PB's don't have status protection...? I wish I didn't have to say this, but I honestly believe at this point that you don't know LF gives status protection. Also, Clarion. If you can perma LF, you can get Clarion. Not that you'll even need it. I soloed some 54x8 Rikti on my Peacebringer yesterday and used my t1 Clarion twice for the whole map, because I didn't feel like switching to Dwarf form, and I could've easily tapped a break free macro instead. I just think Clarion's animation is prettier.

Because Light Form traded some of its resistance in exchange for the reduced recharge, and you might not want to six-slot Light Form to get your resistance AND recharge maxed. Those perma-lf builds can be slot hungry.

Geko's points were wrong. Period. And your post does nothing to refute what I had to say about them.

And it's all well and good to come over here at the twelfth hour to criticize what you see as fanboi defense of a troubled archetype, but if you'd spent more than five minutes over the past year in this forum you'd know I have been one of Peacebringers' harshest critics.

I happen to agree that Peacebringers have to work harder than any archetype in the game to achieve "acceptable" performance. But crap statements like "the original premise of khelds relying on form shifting and team buffs" do little more than muddy the waters and point other members of the community in the wrong directions. How are we going to see any real change if we can't even get the problems with the archetype right?

Mag 4 barely counts as status protection, I'd much rather have real mez protection, like the VEATs and melee ATs have. Clarion helps, but if you're taking it, you're not taking Ageless, which means no debuff protection for you, and no instant bluebar fill after you nuke. Btw, you wish you didn't have to say this..?

To Smiling Joe - While I don't post much (neither do you), you'll notice my presence in pretty much every Kheldian discussion this past year, sometimes supporting you (you did a great job comparing the DPS between PB and WS), sometimes disagreeing with you (mostly about the hypothetical 4th White Dwarf ST attack that you absolutely oppose). There's no doubt in my mind that you've been something of a PB advocate, much like Grey Pilgrim, and I've learned to respect your opinion. This is the first time I actually witnessed you "pull rank" to shut down another player's point of view, and I kinda saw red after that, so to speak. Sorry if my post was overly hostile, it won't happen again.

2.07 seconds.

So it's a major change for people who like to play as Form Dancers (or just need to snap into Dwarf to escape a mez or to turtle up for a bit or off-tank to grab some aggro off other teammates)

If you don't like what I write, put me on ignore. Otherwise piss off.