Form shifting on beta

Out of curiosity, do you realize how much magnitude status protection VEATs get?

It's 4. Unless you take two powers, then I suppose it's 6. Big fragging difference.

It really has nothing to do with "liking" what you wrote and more to do with the fact the devs have basically said no at every attempt to get them to fundamentally change khelds to be more like (insert your favorite AT here) at every turn.

It is pretty clear that you don't like hearing that fact but I don't think it is a reason to be uncivil.

You or any other group of forumites that want Khelds to be fundamentally changed are entitled to waste your time, just know that there are people here that will repeatedly point that fact out and oppose any fundamental changes as suggested because we like what the devs have given us.

Well that's misleading. Crabs have Fortifaction which is mag 8 at level 50 along with the mag 4 from Crab Spider. Widows/Fortunatas both have access to Indomitable Will which iirc is mag 10 at level 50.

So huntsman and bane builds are left at mag 6.

Okay, I got a real giggle out of the notion of me pulling rank on Evil Geko.

In my defense, it was 6 AM when I started that post and I was just sitting down in my office. Annoyed.

SOME of that might have bled over into that post. Okay, a lot.

I make no apologies for it, however. Annoyed and insulting are two different things, and I don't think I was especially insulting or degrading.

No my points weren't wrong. And in a couple of weeks after Issue 23 when people are still clamoring for more Peacebringer changes that will be clear.

You see, you're wrong. That's why there have had to be so many changes. You all keep looking in the wrong direction for changes. The fundamental design is broken. It was broken when I was first playing with Kheldians on Issue 3 test and they are still broken now.

I don't say that out of any hatred of Kheldians. I say that from having the perspective that many of you seem to lack. I've been here from the very beginning and I've seen how the game has developed. Despite what many of you claim, Kheldians are the least versatile AT in the game. Yes, they have a lot of tools. But so many of those tools are so laughably weak that they aren't even real choices.

• I was at ComicCon in 2010 and I was talking Ghost Falcon who said emphatically that we would NEVER be able to start villain ATs in Paragon or hero ATs in the Rogue Isles. Instead we would always have to use the alignment shift or start in Praetoria.
  
• Positron said long ago, that he would rather remove endurance from the game than make Stamina an inherent power.
  
• Positron again stated in no uncertain terms than merging the hero and villain markets was considered and would never happen.

How did that work out I wonder?

What the devs say today is what they say today. Again, having the perspective of being here since launch means I've seen multiple examples of the devs saying something would 'never' happen, only to see it actually happen to much fanfare later. Likewise, one day the developers might actually realize that Kheldians (mostly Peacebringers) need to be relieved of Geko's idiotic design and made into something that actually works in this game.

But you're coming off like - let's switch ATs here for a second - "Controllers aren't strong enough. They can be some of the slowest soloers in the game, outside of a set or two they have no mez protection. So let's up their damage scale, give them more melee attacks, get rid of most if not all of the controls and give them some armor..."

... well, congrats, you just said you want to play a tank/brute/scrapper. Not a controller.

No, the *fundamental design* is not broken. The design just doesn't work with the way you want to play.

Frankly, I'd say that none of the changes made to Kheldians - and do remember, we have only one powerset per AT, so a tweak to (say) Light Form is what I think you're counting as a "tweak to the AT" as a whole, unlike every OTHER AT where you have a bunch of sets to compare and contrast and mix - come close to the "massive AT changes" that the Domination change, Defiance 1 and 2 changes, even the Brute Fury changes were.

We've been playing ours and know how they work, and how they don't. How about you?

See my Guides and Tutorials

The list of things you made there is actually not the same thing. They made those changes directly no interim or alternative solution that works unlike the mez protection changes made that do/are working. Beating that dead horse "is" a waste of time, but "I" did not say you can't ask...you just don't like the answer.

The shapeshift to instant deal works wonderfully now if they could deal with toggle suppression we are pretty much home free.

Let's see:
One is a "So and so told me." No way to verify that's what was said exactly versus how you remember. And what stage was the Freedom change at at that point, and was he on the team? He could very well have not had the information.

Number two is an opinion.

Number three, they ran the numbers on and didn't like. They wanted to encourage "gun-running," which was supposed to be a benefit of the "grey" alignments - but then introduced a *third* market and a *third* currency, which made the entire system exceptionally unwieldy, especially with praetorians having to "convert" or "store" their Information into Influence or Infamy. To the point where a currency and market merge *was* the better idea. In other words, a major factor changed the equation.

So, with the selective memory you wish to chide others for, you didn't really pick great examples.

Meanwhile, they still do not want to let people do a "full respec" of AT/Primary/Secondary (or any combination thereof,) just for a counterexample that keeps coming up that we've gotten a definite "no" on.

If permanent mez protection were *actually* seen *by the devs* as a problem after nearly TWENTY ISSUES, I'd think - with all the other changes - they'd have done something to grant it by now. The closest they've come? The Light Form recharge/duration/crash changes.

Just because they've changed their mind on *some* things does not mean they'll just change their mind on *everything* on a whim.

Edit: Frankly, given the "kind of" mez protection Blasters get (getting to use some powers to defend themselves while held/slept/etc,) well, I look at Dwarf and Light Form and think they're probably quite happy with the options we have.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Actually you are being revisionist in terms of the shapeshift deal since I and others are on record supporting this up to three years ago.

The second deal has more to do with your personal perspective based on your playstyle, abilities and build not the AT. My PB solo's just fine but then again it did before the most recent changes were made as well.

I can't believe you resorted to the old hyperbole that weakens any arguments made for changes. WOW!

Did I say #2 or #3 were not? Re-read, please. The only one I said was not was #1.

#2 I stated was an opinion. As opposed to a declaration of the direction of the game or of design philosophy for PS.

Only if the point you think we're trying to make is that you're not reading things properly.
... says the person who is trying to 'revise' things in this very string of quotes.
EG. Just stop. You've just made an incredible fool of yourself with your assumptions. Search JUST this forum. You'd see a reduction in time on form shifting, including "instant," as a suggestion made QUITE often in these forums.

You don't know the AT. You don't know the Kheldian community. Just stop. And stop trying to insist Khelds should be "some other AT."

... says the person who keeps basically saying the AT needs to completely drop what it is and become like SOAs.

Again, if we WANTED to be playing SOAs... we'd be playing SOAs.
"Performance" by what measure? "Weaker" by what measure? And how many IOs are you shoving into your SOA when you make that comparison?

This IS personal preference you're pushing, EG. You don't like how PBs/Khelds play. Fine. Solution: Don't play them. I dont' like how Illusion plays, despite the praise heaped on it by some well known Controller players. Solution: I don't play Illusion. I don't care for the (to me) exceptionally *boring* play of Scrappers. Solution: I rarely play them. I'm not suggesting anything I don't do. And you don't see me going into the Scrapper forums and saying they need to play more like Controllers. Which is, essentially, what you've been pushing this entire thread. "Khelds don't play like X, they don't have the same number as X, dump the form shifting and make them into X." Whether you THINK you're saying it or not, that's EXACTLY what you're saying.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Yeah OK.

But they don't solo as well as SoA. Anything can solo. That's not the point.

Yeah ok is right because you were in fact wrong. Like Bill said there is in fact a history in the Kheldian forums that goes back years.

Yes, anything can solo and you may be able to solo better with your SOA than you can with your Kheldian who's inherent is team based, that's fine. That does not mean there is "any" reason to change Kheldians in the suggested manner period.

I have no idea why you now accuse me of anything when you are the one asking for a fundamental change in Kheldians that is not needed and has been repeatedly denied by the devs over many years of changes wherein they offered several working alternatives that fit with the AT.

No sir I will not be dragged into your attempt to deflect how wrong you are here by making personal attacks and you need to stop doing so, it is in fact silly.

But you *just* said:

... which rather indicates that solo *IS* at least part of the point.

EG, just what IS your point, besides "SOA perfect, PB should be deleted?" Do you know at this juncture? And while we're at it, specifically WHICH SOA are you talking about? Bane? Crab? Huntsman? Fort? Widow? (My opinion on the Bane, even more so now, is "Give me a stalker with Leadership and I'll do better.")

My Dark/Electric is weaker than the SOA solo, assuming by "weaker" you mean "takes longer/does less damage than." Doesn't mean it's broken.
My Earth/FF is weaker than the SOAs solo. Doesn't mean it's broken.
The SOA is weaker than my Fire/SS tank solo. Doesn't mean the SOA's broken.

"Does not match my personal preference" is also not broken.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I did make such a search. I searched 'form shifting'. Found nothing of the sort.

Horse-poo. I know it as well, if not better than anyone else here. You don't min-max by your own admission Bill. You don't play for performance. I do. Saying this is just plain wrong. I do know the AT. Very well. We can disagree without resorting to inanity like this.

This is true. But I've never understood insanity. I should have paid more attention in my low level psych classes.

No. I don't mind when you say crazy things like you don't want Illusion on Dominators. That's your opinion. It's loony, but you have a right to say it. As I have a right to ask for whatever I want.

What is this AT? It's a poor collection of powers. Kheldians were intended to able to fill in for other AT roles like tanking, damage dealing, etc. But the AT is remarkably poor at doing so. You can tank much better with any Scrapper with a taunt aura. They are beat on DPS, by about half of the other ATs. SO what is this AT supposed to be?

SoA are damage dealers, and support and they do darn well at both.

So when I say, I would like Kheldians to be more like SoA, I mean that they should be good at their intended roles. I don't know how that's controversial.

On SOs Bill. The SoA do more damage. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. They have a higher damage mod, and their powers have higher DPAs. What's difficult to understand here?

As for survivability, the Kheldians do better here, especially after the last round of changes.

You're right. I don't like how Peacebringers play. And I would like them to change. You are perfectly reasonable in saying that you don't want them to change. What you are not reasonable in saying is that I have no right to ask.

I will ask. I didn't spend any time concerning myself with the folks who said the old Moment of Glory was fun and they liked it. I wanted it to change and so I argued for it. When it did change many of the same people who opposed me loved that it changed. So would it be here too.

You would probably hate what I would do to Peacebringers, but then you somehow think Illusion isn't a great set so we know you're crazy!

I don't know how you searched, then. Perhaps the -ing threw you. But it's been asked consistently for years. Again, actually *knowing* the community would have prevented you from making such a ridiculous statement.

You're not proving it. And not playing it does not make you an expert on it - nowhere close. So if you don't play it, the claim you know it "as well if not better than anyone else here" is rather like me walking into a hospital and saying I'm as good as, if not better than, brain surgery than anyone there, because I've never touched one.

And you think min/maxing is THE measure by which everything should be judged? Most of the *playerbase* doesn't min/max. Much of the forum? I'd give half, sure. But *the game is not min/maxing."
I play for an expected level of performance. I expect to be able to solo reasonably on SOs on even settings. I can turn my settings up on my PBs on SOs. Illusion, on the other hand, I *had* to turn to IOs and tune a build around recharge to get it to be reasonable. My Ill/Sonic is the *only* character I've *ever* had that I couldn't pull into BB at 15-17 and solo the shivan run. It couldn't beat the firebase. It went downhill from there.

See earlier comment about "my way or else."
You don't play it. So no, you don't know the AT. Min/max is not the AT. On *ANY* AT.

And you've just insulted the entire community for disagreeing with you, so our discussion ends here. Because I will not put up with it. Especially from someone who I expect better from. I *KNOW* you're better than that. I like you, EG, but right now I'm so incredibly disappointed in you I've just got to stop and ignore (not put on list, just -leave-) you in this conversation.

So pardon my french, but knock it the **** off. And while you're knocking it the **** off, sit and think about it - you've got *zero* support for what you want so far. So either the *entire community* of Kheld drivers here is wrong - or maybe, *JUST* maybe, you are and you should reconsider your position.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Researched without the 'ing'. And Grey Pilgrim's post from just after I22 went on beta showed up. While many folks here (Pilgrim, Joe, Two headed) did in fact argue for this, there were plenty of folks telling them they were wrong.

So I acknowledge that my statement was overly broad and apologize. Not all of you would have been complaining, just a lot of you!

Illusion has been rocking it since Issue 1 Bill. And sure, most of the playerbase doesn't min/max. But if you're going to be talking about performance, then we need to consider the numbers. Everything can solo on SOs. If that's the standard then nothing needed to change and this current buff on test should be reverted.

If other ATs are head and shoulders better then you have a problem. That has been the basis for just about every change so far. It's the reason that people (with no small amount of justification) tore into the current threads about giving Scrappers something.

Stamping your feet doesn't make it so.

So it's OK to insult me, to say I don't know what I'm talking about, but I make a tongue in cheek response and I'm the bad guy? Come on man.

I don't seek validation. Just because something is controversial doesn't make it wrong. People often fight major change. It's to be expected. I'm always more concerned when everyone agrees with me than when I have detractors.

Saying you don't know what you're talking about, especially when you have given no evidence to the contrary, is hardly a personal insult.

lol

No one has countered any factual statement I've made. I said Kheldians do less damage than SoA. Are you suggesting that is untrue? No. You're just using insult like you all are. Hell, Joe admitted one of the central contentions I made, that Kheldian powers lack synergy.

You guys are fun. You don't deny that Kheldians have problems, but anyone who disagrees with you what those problems are must be wrong.

Wanting Peacebringers to be in shooting distance of Warshades and SoA isn't advocating for them to be overpowered. They have a LONG way to go there.

Well Bill made a thread where you can tell us specifically what changes you are talking about so maybe that will help to clear up your position.