The fate of Praetorian Earth in Dark Astoria? (spoilers)

Fascists like Reichsman and Tyrant are all about conquest - eventually, crushing thier own worlds isn't enough - they need to move onto others.

If you read the plaques around his city, you'll learn that Tyrant is a brilliant strategist and thinker, so it's quite possible that he simply assembled an army to conquer the multiverse just in case he might actually need to do it one day.

Actually I believe they're going to be unlocking the full dialogue tree as of I23, sans a bit about the Underground and the stuff for the Magisterium trial (you'll have to do that trial to get the dialogue unlocked) but the rest should be opened up by then.

So long as I know the major plot points, I can live without knowing the specifics behind the specific iTrials I'll never do anyway. What concerns me isn't really the iTrial plots themselves so much as the plot points that bleed into regular content that I'm supposed to know about. If Duncan acts like I should know this already, I'd like to know it

Then again, I don't specifically need to read it in the actual game. If a Wiki article exists for it, or if someone does a dump or a write-up, that's good, too. I do know it's a lot of info, though, so it's not something I can ask for in good conscience.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'm finding this thread really handy so thanks everyone for the information. I still think the story stinks of old socks but at least I can now understand what's going on.

Seriously, whoever thought iTrials and Papa Smurf were a good way to tell a story should go back to writing the plots for detergent commercials.

That's because the devs use all types of content to tell their stories - the Praetorian storyline is the most obvious example, as it's the largest storyline in the game so far - but the Coming Storm storyline already uses several types of content, and will spread it over a wider selection as it progesses.

Duncan doesn't know snot. Diabolique seems to have gotten the information from Mot.

No, it's not. The Furies are. The Well doesn't care so much any more.

I mean she knows what's going on in Praetoria and acts like I should know, as well. And I just don't. Last I heard from Praetoria was when I rescued a suspiciously alive Statesman from an Olympian Guard.

Wheel of Morality, turn turn turn! Tell us the lesson that we should learn! And the lesson of today's story is...

There's no I in "team," but there's an M and an E.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

It's something that has occurred to me, obviously, but I agree that it is one of those things that could use some clarification one way or the other. I'm also unclear currently whether Stheno is one of the Furies or not (I believe I recall seeing that she is, but I'm not positive. I'd have to go replay some of those Redside arcs again.)

I couldn't agree with you more. The "Shades of grey" behind Praetoria (at least the level 1-20 content) is why I enjoy Praetoria so much more than any other part of the game. As you point out, there are those issues on the Loyalist side, and you run into the same thing on the Resistance side- where you have to weigh the murky concept of "the greater good" against the lives of the individuals, and whether the group you are working for really has the best interests of the people at heart, and how far you are supposed to venture down morally ambiguous lines to ensure that.

(And, frankly, I have always felt that a couple of those story arcs needed Morality missions more than others. It's always bugged me that Hatchet's "Fodder" mission didn't involve a morality choice, but that the character willingly sanctions cannibalism.)

This part I have to kind of disagree with. I actually like the more Machiavellian take on Cole as opposed to the villainous Tyrant. I like that this is a guy who has basically done the same sorts of things Praetorian characters do- making moral choices based on his perception of right and wrong- and has gone down a road that led to Praetoria. "No one is a villain in his own mind... we're all the hero of our own story."

That the road he felt justified in walking required him to make alliances with others of less benevolent intent is tragic, and led to even more sacrifices in the long run is just another element of the story that humanizes the plot and makes it more real, IMO.

At the same time, I also think the Resistance- to one extent or another- were villainous in certain respects, too. Again, one of the things I really enjoy about it.

That everything post-level 20 sort of throws it all away and makes it black and white is unfortunate (although I'd argue First Ward still keeps a level of that ambiguity that I like, even if I am sad that the Loyalist and Resistance arcs don't continue to play out.)

Not to mention that there are definitely people traveling into and out of Imperial City along the roadway, even if our characters are inexplicably stopped by the sonic fences.

I might be wrong, but doesn't it come out during Mr. G's "Personal Monster" arc that Malta was actually infiltrating Praetorian Earth before they became aware of Primal Earth? At least, there is something going on vis a vis the Maelstrom Device that it came from Praetorian Earth and was taken to Primal Earth. I guess it's possible that happened after Primal and Praetorian "first contact" though.

(Which kind of makes sense that Malta would have wanted to exterminate Praetoria before they could contact Primal Earth, since Praetoria- the totalitarian state ruled by the "Superman"- pretty much represents everything Malta is fighting to ensure never happens.)

The Mr G arc has you discovering that the Maelstrom Device comes from Neuron Labs. Of course with Neuron involved, that doesn't mean much, but in theory that tech is Praetorian.

I'm sorry that your thread went haywire, Sam. If you need, I can read off the dialogue to you ingame. Phaetan has ran all the trials now.

Yeah First Ward paints things a little more black and white, but still retains a fair amount of grey. For one Calvin Scott sicks his goons on you :P And we find out the Seer Network, as horrid and demented as it was, actually served to protect the ones linked into it.

And honestly, I don't feel it's correct to lump in the Carnival of Light as directly Resistance. They work -with- the Resistance, and certainly Vanessa DeVore was a head of the Resistance, but the two are separate entities with separate philosophies. That is, The Resistance is about taking down Cole at any cost. The Carnival seems to put survival and protection as its first goals (based on the First Ward arc anyhow).

Requesting your source on this one because it's far from how I recall anything regarding the Furies.

As depicted in First Ward, the Talons pursued oath breakers and empowered individuals to seek vengeance against those that broke their promises, which tended to lead to a cycle of violence when people swore revenge on those who wronged them. We learn this from the Chronicles of Doom which we're sent to retrieve by Midnight Master.

In DA they're operating more loosely (poor writing?), but we do see in the case of Sigil and Kadabra Kill that broken pacts are part of their agenda. There's also another pact in play here. The history plaque for the "Authority" badge states that the hero Vambrace pledged to restore Dark Astoria and that the Freedom Phalanx was dedicated to helping all parts of Paragon. That kinda-sorta makes a lot of people responsible to justify the Knives/Talons rampage.

At any rate, there are a lot of unresolved questions regarding the Furies. Where have the primal Furies been all this time? Why did they choose the Knives of Artemis to empower?

The Talons are definitely on a recruitment drive between what they're up to in Dark Astoria and First Ward among other things. Which seems to indicate that the Furies controlling them are getting ready to make a big move of some sort.

As you say, though, what is the Furies' agenda? It doesn't seem to be explicitly tied to the concept of broken oaths, although that's at least tangentially tied into things in various storylines.

I'm kind of wondering if the Furies might be somehow tied to the Coming Storm, although I'm not sure how/why/where that might be the case. Perhaps they're the next big threat to hit us after the Battalion/Coming Storm?

I believe the relevant section of timeline is currently going to be Going Rogue, First Ward, Sutter TF, Night Ward, [40-50 gap], Apex TF, Tin Mage MkII TF, BAF, Lambda, Keyes, Underground, TPN, Minds of Mayhem, and finally the Dark Astoria arcs, then Dilemmia Diabolique, and then Magisterium. If you feel like you missed a big chunk of what's going on, it happened in the Incarnate Trials between Tin Mage and Dark Astoria.

If you ran First Ward, Duncan will mention your encounter with her there. So will Diabolique. Other than that, her reference to her place of power crumbling and people missing or dead is a result of our successes at the TPN campus and against Mother Mayhem.

She's not. She's one of the classical Gorgons, I believe.

That's an encounter I looked up on PW when I was checking. I interpreted the conversation as the latter possibility.

Here's the entire conversation from Master Midnight in Vanessa DeVore's arc.

The rest of the conversation is about the plan to get Diabolique's talisman out of the Magisterium.

'THE oaths', not just 'oaths', are what the Furies and/or the Talons believe exist as the basis of morality independent of the laws human civilization creates for itself. If the Furies and/or the Talons believe humanity is behaving indecently, there's hell to pay. The Talons are willing to let Mot devour the entire planet, so they likely believe that civilization itself is to blame for allowing everything in Dark Astoria to happen. If you're not part of their solution, you're part of their problem.

Not really sure why they picked the Knives as conscripts; all we hear from Heather Townshend is the part where the Talons/KoV hunt down the KoA that didn't want to be a part of the solution.

As you complete the itrials, Prometheus tells you more. I found out about that a week or so back about that myself. Spent about a half-hour poking him for different reactions. Might be worth running the trials at least once to get more info.

Apparently I need to do the TPN forward on my 'main' namesake, as that's what he keeps going on about with him. Don't remember if I've done it with him or not, but probably not since he's where I want him to be 'incarnate' wise so far.

I agree that some folks seem to be getting caught up on that. At the end of the day, it's about characters and stories, folks.

I'd really like to see them continue to build on content for Praetorians until they can reach 50+ incarnate without changing alignment. I have at LEAST four (representing each of the 'alignments' in Praetoria) eagerly waiting in the wings for the Night Ward. Each has their reasons for staying Praetorian, two of which are the Praetorian counterparts to to Primal characters, making it somewhat pointless to 'cross over' and the other two because they're that steadfast in their goals. I'd like to see Praetorians as the 'ultimate' crossover characters that (like Rogues and Vigilantes) can go between each and make their own choices, because they exist outside the roles Primal earth enforces.

Though, I'd like to see more content be made for Vigilante and Rogue content too... so I may be biased.

In this case, he is an excuse for running the trials, if you want to look at it that way.

And that's what I've been rolling with. Even if the Furies of 'this' earth knew, they may not stop them for that reason alone.

"Let's see what happens from it." in their point of view.

Having read the novels, that doesn't step outside their M.O.

I always thought it was implied to be one of the Gorgons, like Medusa, while the Furies were 'something else'. However, it's all greek to me

No, they're different things, though they're tied to the same mythology.

I didn't. I even noted that Primal Earth's actions were understandable. I was (futilely, I know) objecting to GG's black and white world view.

Yeah, I remember that conversation, and I remember that being the point where I realised I simply won't like the Furies as a concept. Ever. This is probably just personal preference, but I REALLY hate the concept of the amoral, almost primal intelligence that's at the same time damn near all-powerful. The Furies are all about oaths and laws and such, but if they didn't have divine power and actually existed in contemporary society, they'd all have been locked up forever and ever.

I know fictional representation of gods are also presented to be amoral or even or even barely sentient sometimes, but I feel a character just loses something when you make them such a devout extremist that this character becomes incapable of showing any distinct personality other than just a faceless entity like pretty much all the others. See, when a character's entire personality is defined by some unquestionable dogma, that character just becomes that much less interesting.

That, really, is why I'm not that much against Papa Smurf. Yeah, he's a plot device, but he's a CHARACTER, as a god should be. I don't like his personality, but that's because he's a jerk. And a jerk though he may be, that's still a personality. He seems capable of thinking for himself, of planning, of having emotions.

The Furies, the Talons and the Knives are just NPCs.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

We've yet to actually meet them. I don't know if you like the novels or not, and I don't know how closely the writers are going to decide to adhere to what was in the novels, but when the Furies roughed up a mafia-bought police chief and told Statesman that he needed to be punished then and there to begin fixing the corruption in Paragon City, he replied that their style of justice wasn't acceptable in the world any more and that they needed to let him fix Paragon in his way.

If I recall correctly, they were actually interested in testing Statesman's quality versus Recluse's, and they seemed pleased by the precedents he set. Of course, we can't be sure what would've happened if Statesman hadn't succeeded.

Between the legends, Prometheus and whatever else we hear, who the Furies are right now really is something we don't know quite yet. Based on how the locals on the mainland in Greece seemed to know (and be apprehensive when talking about) where the Furies were hanging out, they've been keeping an eye on Primal Earth for a while, so why the Talons of Vengeance are acting up now on Primal Earth after all this time is another mystery: are the Furies really at the top of the chain of command of the Talons these days, or has something changed now that Statesman's died?