The fate of Praetorian Earth in Dark Astoria? (spoilers)

Praetoria City is referenced, somewhere, as one of the last exporters of high tech goods. Given the relatively extensive dockyards and the airfield in Neutropolis, there has to be somewhere worth travelling to.

This reminds me:

I keep hearing people talk about how there isn't one Well but many wells, how a Well dies if the people's bound to die off, how ours is Human and on and on, but... Where's any of this said? When I first heard it, I assumed it would be explained in Dark Astoria, since that kinda' sorta' deals with the Well in a roundabout way, but it isn't. Or it wasn't in my playthrough anyway. Not much about the Well is mentioned at all, other than "Mot will become a new Well!" which made my scratch my head. Does anyone know what that's all about?

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On the subject if Loyalists vs. Resistance - it's a mistake to be cynical about it. The story in Praetoria is intentionally vague, written so a to be subject to different interpretations by different people. I generally don't like open-ended stories, but here's it's not the story that's open-ended: That's pretty much firmly concluded. What's open-ended is the morality of it. We're given choices, we're given context, we opt which way to go. Even the Crusaders can be argued to be doing what's best for the people, even if they're really big ******** about it.

Not everyone will agree with everyone else's interpretation. Obviously. But just because you disagree with another person's interpretation of morality doesn't make that other person wrong for holding his belief. At the end of the day, that's exactly what it is - a belief.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

oooohhhhhhh?

perhaps something beyond the reach of cole and hamidon, but significant enough for Cole to trade with?


or those could be residual from before hamidon destroyed the world... no?

or perhaps a protected agricultural territory where they grow food and... wolves O_o... to eat for Cole's city.

I think most of that comes from Prometheus. I think.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I spoke with Papa Smurph and he didn't say anything about it. Is there some specific path I need to follow through his dialogue labyrinth to get to the information? Because I asked him about everything I could - even insulted him to his face - and he didn't say anything about the Well beyond the age old "Cole is the Well's champion" bit he had the first time he showed up.

I really need to sit down and chart his dialogue some day.

*edit*
I should point out that for all the times I've made fun of Prometheus, that isn't to say I hate the character. He seems like a plot device, yes - that's because he is - but the concept of a very tall, very arrogant god is not a bad idea. It's just a combination of how he's an excuse for the trials and how square his head is that makes me want to mock the guy.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Okay.

1) Prometheus is aware of events and people existing on multiple Earths. When he says that the Furies were among the first humans to discover the Well, you might be well off believing that they were among the first on any of the Earths, and not necessarily Primal Earth. The Talons, similarly, aren't from Praetorian Earth and may not even be from Primal Earth.

2) To the Talons and the Furies, there is no difference between upholding oaths and upholding morals.

Master Midnight has a slightly more relevant bit to say supporting this as well but DeVore's arc information isn't complete on ParagonWiki. I suppose when I said that the Talons are punishing humanity on Primal Earth for its lack of morals, I should have specified that they're punishing Primal Earth for a perceived lack of morals.

3) The Talons didn't get to Primal Earth's past. The Talons have been around for a very, very long time, probably even before Cimerora. That's why they're already familiar with you when you encounter them in Dark Astoria.

Several of Prometheus' dialogue trees are unlocked as you complete Incarnate Trials. However, there's a new one,

"Care to explain why you've never told me I could ascend to become like a 'well', Prometheus?"

unlocked by defeating Diabolique in Praetor Duncan's arc, but I think that one is locked behind a tree unlocked by a Keyes Island completion, "I have earned the right to know more about the Well." That's where this information is.

Also, our Well isn't human; it's been around before humanity, but it initially chose to represent humanity across the universes.

Tangible proof of corruption and violation of human rights in a totalitarian government's police service is found by putting on a badge and showing up for work. This is hammered home in-game in Cleo's arc, wherein you enter a police station to see the cops matter-of-factly beating the living daylights out of a suspect while you are investing three officers all of whom have something going on the side. One of the corrupt officers later tells you point-blank that Tyrant's regime is killing people on a daily basis to keep his little charade going. In case that's not enough for you we were also told this straight-up, Word of God, by the devs at the HeroCon (or whatever) live panel that introduced GR.

Criminal behavior is endemic in police states.. If you are involved in any capacity related to state security in a totaliatarian government you must at least be willfully blind to what is going on around you. The fact that your government is torturing and murdering its own people will not be some deep dark secert only known to the inner circles. It will be something your fellow officers joke about around the water cooler.

Nixon committed a litany of sins but running a police state was not one of them. In any case your question was already answered in the previously-quoted material so I suggest you add slots to Reading Comprehension.

Well, actually, it does, at least until it doesn't (i.e. after level 20; whether or not you leave the story assumes you've at least defected from the State.)


No, they can't. Power Loyalists use people for their own purposes at every step of the way.

You're giving them a pass on the mind control drugs in the water, then? Just to get the ball rolling.

If you refuse to blow up the Enriche plant, you defect to the State.

Sure, sometimes the Wardens stop individual Crusaders from going too far off the deep end, but they're still married to the Crusaders body and soul. Thus the Julius Caesar quote. The Wardens may pride themselves on having clean hands but they accept aid and resources from people they know can only provide such through "vile means".

There is no heroic side in Praetoria. If you are looking for heroes in a totalitarian state, you're going to need a shovel.

Whatever gets you through the night, baby, but anyone who actually believes something like this is deep enough in denial to have tea and scones with Stanley and Livingstone.

No, you are immediately shown how corrupt the system is.

Again, we were told straight-up that Tyrant is the bad guy and his government is evil. The idea that there was going to be some kind of moral ambivalence about it is some fantasy some of the players concocted.

Prometheus confirms that the Rikti are attached to humanity's Well.

I'll say it again: Cole wanted to invade Primal Earth, slaughter any resistance there, and enslave the remaining population before any of this Incarnate business even began. You can't handwave that no matter how much of a pretzel you twist your arm into.

Note that the fences work both ways. They're one of the reasons why most Praetorian citizens knew nothing about the reality of First Ward.

Asking someone who's is literally brainwashed and/or on drugs and/or at risk for thought police looking into their brain for their honest opinion on things isn't likely to generate an accurate answer. In any case, Primal Earth does have to look after its own interests first, then it can get a good bead on what the common Praetorian wants once we've dealt with the Hamidon. It's not like the Resistance is going to be completely in charge; folks like Provost Marchand still exist...as well as folks like Mr. G...

Hey, just because you've been wrong once, shouldn't stop you from being wrong again!

I don't think anyone is?

once?

Then why question the actions of Primal Earth?

Think of it this way:
Hamidon wanted to save the earth and restore it. Humanity was a threat. Humanity is NOT an alien invader, though- it was once a stable part of the earth ecosystem. From a pure preservationist mindset, if it can be returned to a natural part of the ecosystem, that would be preferred over destroying that piece of the ecosystem entirely.

Cole basically agreed to move the remaining humanity onto a reservation and cede the rest of the planet to Hamidon.




This has probably been answered already since then, but please bear with me. I haven't been following incarnate stuff so much and I'm still riding a high about realizing my prediction was right (I've advocated for the "cole negotaiated with Hamidon during the psychic link" stuff ever since his profile text appeared on the website:

EDIT
(Now, my other prediction was that, with Cole gone and humanity's danger fully realized, Hamidon would unleash its full force- one last mega-incarnate Praetorian trial.

Although the heroes will triumph against this threat, with all forces amassed there, nobody will notice the smaller aspect of Hamidon making its way through one of Praetoria's less-guarded portals. It will be free to grow in the greater metaverse unchecked as we focus our attention on the Battallion, Rularuu, and Ouroboros until it becomes the massive tentacle beast hinted at in the Alpha-slot story arc.

So, to prevent that little.... problem... could someone please GUARD THE PRAETORIAN PORTALS and not let anything reeking of Devouring Earth get by?)

The responsible PC doesn't get the luxury of reading Paragon Wiki or attend HeroCon (or whatever), and the words of a corrupt police officer blaming it all on the government aren't exactly reliable, point blank or no. What the PC does is show up for work and repeatedly prove that he's not willing to let the people get hurt for political gain, even if it means standing up to his superiors, or even the praetors. Unlike the Wardens, though, he does so openly and legally, because he believes the problem isn't the law, it's the people taking advantage of it.

Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc. Criminal behavior is endemic in all states, not just totalitarian ones. Pass a law, and someone will break it. Give some people power over others, and some will abuse it. That's why the responsible PC is needed, he arrests criminals (the mad doctor whose bodycount had hit 43 before we caught him) and puts a stop to zealots (the chief investigator who thought his badge gave him a licence to kill).

Irrelevant, it was still a corrupt regime, as in fact most are to a lesser degree. If you keep blaming the PCs for government crimes they didn't know were taking place, you might as well be blaming every policemen in history.

No, it really doesn't. The Responsibility path is very similar to the Warden path in this respect, they can both be played regardless of your current alignment. In fact, most moral choices encourage the player to switch alignments midway while still pursuing that path. Alignment in Praetoria is a personal thing, you're always a standing member of Powers Division no matter what you do.

In each path, I've only reaffirmed my alignment in one occasion, by freeing the Seers in Warden and by arresting DeVore in Responsibility. All the other moral choices had me question my loyalties in order to do the right thing.

I don't see it that way. They're more like football stars in that respect, worshipped and adored, but they deliver nonetheless. Whatever their motivations might be, the fact remains that they did alot of good for Praetoria - putting a stop to the Destroyers is a good thing, right?

Again, responsible PCs couldn't have known that was happening. Why you keep insisting they should be played as clairvoyant is beyond me.

What's this defection stuff? Do you actually wear a cape and go shout your lungs out that you're a member of the Resistance just because you refused to pick up the soap for one of Cole's goons? We're always Powers Division! Whether your actions catch the attention of Calvin Scott or Praetor White is irrelevant to the Warden and Responsibility paths.

So you're saying Wardens should be arresting Crusaders *before* they actually do something "vile"? Who's being a fascist now?

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. Are you aware that modern humans are at least 150.000 years old and free democratic society only emerged after the french revolutions? So you're saying there have been absolutely no heroes at all tied to any form of government prior to the 18th century?

P.S. Sorry for taking over your thread, Sam. I promise this is my last unrelated post here ^_^

Oh, for ****'s sake... OK, that explains why I haven't seen it, and thank you for point that out. I was going to ask if there's anywhere to read up on this since dialogues are usually not included in the Wiki from what I've seen, but this one is... And it's huge. Guess I have my research material to read through.

Seriously, thank you for pointing that out, I really didn't expect Prometheus to develop more dialogue options.

Venture simply acts like his opinion on any matter on which he even has an opinion is entirely correct and the ONLY one that's correct and will accept no argument on the matter. I've found it's best to simply take any information he has to offer and not bother with any argument he wants to make. I'm sure he's a smart guy, but there's simply no argument with someone who argues to prove you wrong, rather than to prove a point.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

If we believe Maelstrom's backstory, Primal Earth was infiltrating Praetoria before they knew of Primal Earth's existence.

He tells you more after you complete each Trial - there's new text for each one.

And aside from that, and Arachnos trying to blow stuff up for no reason (well, because they're bad guys, obviously), Longbow was making trans-dimensional incursions into Praetoria, sending large groups armed with lethal weaponry.

No different than they do in the Rogue Isles, but still, all of this was long before the events of the Sutter or Apex TFs.

Of course trying to make GG see reason is like arguing with a brick wall, so good luck with that

They need to be free to choose freedom

The Trials are the logical conclusion of the storyline started in GR - a crazed fascist and his stiff armed thugs will always get a massive beatdown in a comicbook setting

As a word of warning, Prometheus' complete dialogue tree is not only incomplete, but what's there is redundant and badly in need of organization. Most of what you're seeing is a repetition of explanations of BAF, Lambda, and Keyes.

All the backstory says is that Mother Mayhem and Tyrant initially didn't know where Maelstrom and Melee were from.

...but after Maria Jenkins' pre-GR arcs. You'll also note that the creation of Cole's invasion plans had to occur before the Warwork army was being built, which occurred at about the same time Arachnos and Longbow show up.

Primal Earth also investigated Axis Earth before Reichsman was aware of Primal Earth - Nazi Coles are always going to be a security risk, so it's the sensible thing to do to keep an eye on what they're up to.

Except that if Webb hadn't gone to Axis Earth in the first place, Reichsman wouldn't have captured him and thus invaded Primal Earth.

Rats... OK, do you know of some place I can see the complete dialogue tree, or at least the parts I can't read as a non-iTrial-goer?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

So the mass-murder, torture, brain-washing, drugged water supply, thought police, lack of democracy, personality cult, forced membership of the Powers Division, faked history taught in schools and general fascist police state vibe of the loyalists dictatorship doesn't stink?