The fate of Praetorian Earth in Dark Astoria? (spoilers)

I misspoke. You're right about the Furies, in that we don't know enough about that. What I meant to say is I don't like the TALONS as a concept. The Furies may well have their own personalities and motivations, but the Talons, as presented in storyline, are just one step removed from zombies. They have something they have to do and they're gonna' do it. And if they can't do it, they'll up and die. That's actually a plot point in Dark Astoria.

I guess I could see this for the grunts on the front lines since, like that Knives woman says "I kill five and ten more appear," so it's easy to assume the grunts are expendable, but at least the Mother Keres could have shown some potential intelligence. No, it's the same indoctrinated drivel as the rest of them. It just seems like a wasted opportunity, honestly.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'm not sure what wasted opportunity you're looking for in antiquity's version of The Terminator.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much it. You're looking for depth in a very shallow pond. The 'of Vengeance' group is pretty much a one trick pony, which is supposed to be scary I guess? But really it just makes for some very flat antagonists. They don't come off as some immovable force, they just come off as completely generic villains you can toss into any situation. They're cardboard cutouts more than anything.

Which is precisely what I don't like. And I'm not a big fan of the Terminator, either. I mean, it's a good horror movie, but I'm much more a fan of Terminator 2, because that adds a lot more depth to the plot, between skynet, the cyborg duels, the questions of changing the future and so forth. Even Sky Net is presented as less of a one-dimensional monster since it's at least cunning to some extent.

If this were just about a killing machine killing people, it would be considerably less interesting, and that's exactly what the Talons are. They're generic villains with a generic reason to be villains. They're a missed opportunity in the sense that much more interesting villains could have been used, instead.

See, one of the things I really liked about the original City of Heroes mythos is that - say what you will about the execution - everything had depth to it. Circle of Thorns: Evil demon-worshipping cult of evil mages. Turns out they have a LONG backstory. Rikti: Evil dogmatic aliens. Turns out they have their own unique culture and society. Hell, even something as simple as the Hellions turns out to be patsies for a larger crime ring.

To make the Talons just card-carrying villains who want nothing but to essentially kill everyone for any reason they can come up with seems like a missed opportunity. They could have been actual characters. Instead, they're just NPC critters.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Like I said, the Talons came from Praetorian Earth chasing Diabolique, they may not be tied to Primal Earth's Furies in any way. Possibly so, but I really don't think so. Though I consider it odd they aren't addressed at all in this storyline, seeing as how last we heard, they're staying in Kings Row...

In any event, the Talons are creations of Praetoria's Furies who went insane after Cole broke the balance of power in the world. The Talons are insane as well, driven by rage. They're supposed to be two dimensional like that. Intellegent beings having their rage amplified until it becomes an unthinking frenzy that the Talons then direct.

I'm willing to bet if there's any more to be said about the Talons on Primal Earth (though it seems in the storyline we drive them off) I'm really hoping Primal's Furies get brought into the picture. As growing incarnates, I'm sure they're as interested in us as we them anyway.

Well, Tyrant is certainly the Leader the stiff armers deserve - but now that they've been routed and the evil loyalist empire has been smashed, the Praetorian people are finally getting the heroes they deserve

I think Marchand will still play a part in the post-loyalist world - he features in an anti-loyalist role in the new Belladonna arc - but now that the Resistance have liberated Praetoria, I think it might be better if the government was made up of a council rather than having a single leader, as the Praetorians are probably sick of that style of government

That's where I was in First Ward, as well. This isn't helped that they're introduced in the 11th hour and all of a sudden take on the role of major baddies. It is like Tami Baker says: "Oh, it was random person A who was behind it all along." All of a sudden *BOOM!* Character I've never seen walks in, dumps a load of "you should know this already" exposition and unleashes the Talons. They look like winged women, I kick their *****, go finish my arc and "O noes! The Talons are so scary! We are all doomed!" Why? They're winged women with bows and swords. How is that scary?

Now it's only towards the end of the whole story that I start to get an idea about WHY they're scary... And it's the T virus, essentially. The monsters aren't all that bad (unless they have rocket launchers grafted to their arms), but they infect you with madness cooties. Which is dangerous, I guess, but these women are treated like a military threat to be defeated by military means. No-one at any point makes any effort to strengthen the MINDS of himself and his compatriots, because clearly that's where the Talons are the most dangerous. Because they sure as **** ain't dangerous in combat. They don't look the part, they don't act the part and they don't feel like a major threat. Hell, the way the whole story of First Ward is set up, I find the Apparitions to be the much bigger threat because those are consistently show to wipe out entire facilities AND they have a plausible reason about how they're doing it - they're immaterial.

The Talons are badly presented, and I feel their general idea is misused. There used to be a time when City of Heroes had no mindless monsters. Everything which looked like a cliche mindless monster - Clockwork, Devouring Earth, etc. - proved to have a deeper, personal story. Even the seemingly card-carrying villains like the Circle of Thonrs and the Rikti had backstory and depth. The Talons have neither. They're boogiemen... Boogie women, whatever. Just try and think what story you would tell that's ABOUT the Talons of Vengeance. Mind you, not someone else's story that just happens to involve them, I mean a story ABOUT the Knives of Vengeance. It's like trying to write a story about the the air. It's there, and we can examine what it's made of, but it doesn't make for a very good story. Yeah, I know the History Channel has this awesome series about "How the Earth was made," but the Talons don't have enough material for even that, as they don't have a story to speak of.

They just exist, and they're bad, yo.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

That sounds about as entertaining as watching them do it on the forums.

Who said anything about watching?

If you're not going to watch then what's the point?

I don't know, because clearly you missed it!

Good catch, but this conversation as well as others seem much more focused on the aspect of oath breaking rather than the Furies as judges of morality. As Sam said, they seem more primordial and amoral. They've certainly aligned themselves with factions that lack moral fortitude, i.e. the Cimeroran traitors. The only thing that seems consistent in their depiction is their association with revenge.

Coming from the perspective tying the Talons to oath breaking, I can see some association with the KoA. The KoA, after all, form a close sisterhood and severely punish those that attempt to defect. As the Knives swiftly punish those who break their oath to the sisterhood so do the Talons.

You make it sound like they couldn't stop any time they wanted.

You're mistaken.

No, you're missing the point: to the Furies and the Talons, the upholding of 'the oaths' is the essence of morality and virtue. Their sense of morality prompted the rest of mankind to create laws that governed how their societies operated with the purpose of avoiding the Wrath of the Furies. Our sense of morality, what we call morals, may have diverged from the Furies' sense since then.

Locking up people for telling the truth? Tyrant's heil brigade have been doing that for years

You're emphasizing "the oaths", but to what exactly are you referring? I need some clarification on what you perceive is the difference between "oaths" and "the oaths".

From what I have seen, the Furies as they've been depicted are virtually amoral with the exception of two virtues which seem to be central to their motives: avenging trespasses and punishing oathbreakers. It's easy to see how morality, in the common sense, could evolve from this. If you anger your neighbor to the point they'll want retribution then you'll be struck down by the Furies (or your neighbor who has been empowered by them). In order to not anger your neighbor you don't sleep with his wife, kill his family, take or destroy his belongings, or lie to him about things you have done or will do.

That's not my perception. I'm emphasizing 'the oaths' because that's the term the Talons use as if it were a reference to an actual list in their possession, such as when they're screaming at Max when you find him in Mu'Vorkhan's arc. We don't actually know what such a possible list contains yet.

Not having to watch it is precisely the point.

Personally, I think they picked the Knives because they're all women. I don't know if we can attribute this to the Talons or on the WRITERS, but there really isn't much that's specific to the Knives of Artemis which the Talons would care about above and beyond, say, the Carnival of Shadows or Crey. I guess their being a cult or their being somehow related to Artemis might offer a tangential relationship, but no explanation is given in the actual game.

That's kind of what bugs me about a lot of stories, and not just in this game - the question of motivation just isn't given a lot of thought. I just threw my hands in the air and gave up on Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet, for instance, and one of the reasons is I had no idea why the **** I was doing any of the stuff I was doing. I was just following the map marker and going where game mechanics would let me.

Why are the Talons of Vengeance recruiting the Knives? We don't know, and we're not supposed to wonder. They just are. Possibly so we can have a "Destroy the X of Vengeance" mission twice in a row. Because, say what you will about the Talons being sideways of the plot, but at least they're part of the plot. The Knives really aren't. They're just extras, more NPCs in what is essentially the same villain group. They're padding. We could have had more about the Circle of Thorns, but no. They're all gone. We could have had more to do with the Legacy Chain, for instance, or more to do with the Midnight Club. No, they aren't involved. Hell, I could have accepted the Knives of Vengeance if at least their involvement brought Malta into the zone, with some kind of super-advanced new mechs and magitech enhanced soldiers. No. There's one guy with an inexplicable mohawk and he has four missions total, of which I only needed to run one. In essence, the Knives don't bring in Malta, but rather Malta is just mentioned to get rid of the Knives.

Honestly, I'd have been happier if the Knives were swapped for something else. Again - Incarnate Circle of Thorns would have been AWESOME, even if they were just recoloured Ice Thorn Casters and suchforth. Maybe stick them with a few Blade Princes as bosses, Death Mages as lieutenants and maybe Behemoths as minions.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I share this sentiment. I have three Vahzilok inspired characters, one recovered Devoured Earth victim and a Rikti character. Nothing recent has inspired me to roll something tied to the lore. A shame.

Yeah, I will say that I was a little disappointed that with all the other updates the Banished Pantheon, Tsoo, Talons and Knives got, the 'incarnate' Circle of Thorns were just the standard Peregrine mobs only they went from levels 50-54 instead of the standard 50-51 and lacked the Possessed Scientists.

I will say though, for style points I have to give the Knives of Vengeance credit. They were at least flashier than any other mob and kind of entertaining to fight.

Though I still wonder if we'll ever be getting Autumnal Control/Assault >>