PS>SR>PS>SS is the best attack chain. This is what I used on my staff/da brute on beta and got ~198 dps. That is with t4 reactive. Didn't need to self heal, but did use barrier about 4 times during the run. Build was IO'd to the gills. Fully purpled including pvp ios. Brutes Fury in Sky splitter, hecatombs in PS for double purple proc in the chain, apocs in SR.
Sadly, Staff is just a bunch of Average Attacks, made up slightly by having larger-than-average AoEs. However, Titan Weapons really blows it out of the water in every single field, hands down. It's a shame the Beta Testing for Staff was also more focused on the visuals (or sounds, in this case) and did not point out Staff was missing a general Melee Power Set Rule of having one supremely powerful attack if the set is designed around average.
Not really sure what Staff's niche is, if it even has one. Doesn't seem like it does. Titan Weapons AoEs better, and so does ELM. Titan Weapons, StJ, Dual Blades, MA, and KM ST better.
I guess it's 'average'. Not good for this day and age of power creep.
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Given what Reppu is saying above, and that your purpled-out time is above and only yielded 198dps, I think there is a huge issue here. My purpled out TW/SR brute was getting 300+ dps.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
PS>SR>PS>SS is the best attack chain. This is what I used on my staff/da brute on beta and got ~198 dps. That is with t4 reactive. Didn't need to self heal, but did use barrier about 4 times during the run. Build was IO'd to the gills. Fully purpled including pvp ios. Brutes Fury in Sky splitter, hecatombs in PS for double purple proc in the chain, apocs in SR.
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Maybe the only answer is go stalker to get the new AS into the ST chain. (in place of one of the PS, perhaps)
Unless your dps calculation was wrong?
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This is similar to my findings as well. What staff really needed was a strong "superior" "t8" damage scale attack. It's only hard hitting attack is sky splitter, no attack in the set even comes close to sky splitter. Instead of getting that strong attack on the way to getting sky splitter it gets utility power after utility power after utility power, and misses out on good damage powers until you reach sky splitter, but one attack can't carry the entire powerset unless that attack is named Blaze.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Sadly, Staff is just a bunch of Average Attacks, made up slightly by having larger-than-average AoEs
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TW coming out relatively recently prior to Staff also really stole it's thunder of Staff having any hope at becoming the premier weapon set.
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| Not really sure what Staff's niche is, if it even has one. |
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I agree, I think it is a big issue. It's also very irritating to me as staff fighting was one of my personal highest requested powersets for pretty much my entire time playing CoH and they butchered it because it didn't get proper testing in beta. Which is even worse than it sounds considering the MASSIVE amount of time that staff has been idly sitting in beta. It literally had so much time and so many opportunities to have the set improved, but people were too focused on the sfx and look of the set. Powerset flashiness/style/looks needs to stop being an excuse for poor numbers, the two need to be able to co-exist.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Given what Reppu is saying above, and that your purpled-out time is above and only yielded 198dps, I think there is a huge issue here. My purpled out TW/SR brute was getting 300+ dps.
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| Maybe the only answer is go stalker to get the new AS into the ST chain. |
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| Unless your dps calculation was wrong? |
Of course this was on a brute, and as I said earlier the set will most likely work much better as a stalker as the stalker will have the one big thing that staff lacks on other ATs, which is another hard hitting attack to go along with sky splitter.
This doesn't make Staff good, mind. Although it'll have AoE Each most stalker Primaries lack, it won't be anywhere near KM, DB, or StJ's ST. Arguably ELM's ST either, since ELM has actually Above Average ST attacks, and then AS.
Yeah. I think Staff Fighting may be a skip for me the more I think about it. Once again, Open Beta screwed a power set over. Much like Beast Mastery, all people cared about was the flashiness, not the performance.
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So you're saying you would prefer that they actively design things to have power creep then?
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I guess it's 'average'. Not good for this day and age of power creep.
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MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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Yes. As unfortunate as it is, they're never going to nerf Titan Weapons or Street Justice. Our only alternative is to push toward that as, the unfortunate, new balance point. At the very least 'competitive'.|
Originally Posted by Oliin
So you're saying you would prefer that they actively design things to have power creep then?
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When you have a power creep, the level of 'average' shifts. A set like Katana, which use to be considered Good to Great, fell to Average. This? Is a problem, but you can't fix it easily. Do you nerf Titan Weapons and Street Justice? Do you buff EVERYTHING else?
If Paragon wants to sell sets, with the power creep THEY made, they need to acknowledge that. Staff Fighting, even if it's design was to be average, it fails to keep up with core melee set design. It's not offering a single powerful attack.
A set like Mace is Heavy AoE, with Average ST, and then has Clobber as a 'carry power'. We can compare Staff to this.
Staff has Heavy AoE, Average ST... and then no Clobber. What does it get? Some secondary effects that are kind of 'there'? It's Fire Blast Syndrome. Secondary Effects are rarely worth damage.
So, what do you do? What would YOU do?
I'm just saying, even when power creep exists, there's no really good reason to just barrel on into more power creep until eventually Titan Weapons ans Street Justics are just average.
I'd much rather they add power-sets into the game, shoot for average and then nerf or buff outliers as needed. It's not going to provide people with an endless cycle of FOTM powersets, but it's also not going to fall into a cycle of endless power creep either.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
You're hitting people with a stick.
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To be honest, as long as I got to hit things with a stick while looking even vaguely like some of those kung fu demonstration forms I was going to be happy.
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
You're hitting people with a stick.
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MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
This really a shame.
So I guess for stalkers you'd have either PS>SR>PS>AS, or PS>SR>AS>SS? Probably the latter assuming AS with ATO proc causes SS to crit (does it crit fully?). While the latter chain would pick up AS's crit on SS, and extra form damage on SS, it seems to lack anywhere to slot -RES procs.
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PS>SR>AS>SS should be the best the stalker staff chain.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
This really a shame.
So I guess for stalkers you'd have either PS>SR>PS>AS, or PS>SR>AS>SS? Probably the latter assuming AS with ATO proc causes SS to crit (does it crit fully?). |
Sky splitter does fully crit, uh... well, the info states:
----------------------------------------------------
2 Ticks of 76.74 smashing damage over 1.90s on target
30.70 smashing damage on target after 1.80s delay
Specialsmashing damage on target
153.48 smashing damage on target
Only if hidden or target placated
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It double's the base damage, but does not double the perfection of body damage. I'm not sure what the special damage is though.
City of Data + Stalkers = Confusing?
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I don't use CoD.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
City of Data + Stalkers = Confusing?
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Fair enough.
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Katana may perhaps have "fallen to average" in the esteem of some players, or even many players for all I know, but it still does everything that it ever has. It still has strong ST damage and excellent AOE plus a powerful defense buff as well as tons of -def which allows you to slot as many Achilles heels as you want. I can't stop you from regarding that as bad but I can deem you to be wrong.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Yes. As unfortunate as it is, they're never going to nerf Titan Weapons or Street Justice. Our only alternative is to push toward that as, the unfortunate, new balance point. At the very least 'competitive'.
When you have a power creep, the level of 'average' shifts. A set like Katana, which use to be considered Good to Great, fell to Average. This? Is a problem, but you can't fix it easily. Do you nerf Titan Weapons and Street Justice? Do you buff EVERYTHING else? |
I was pretty worried that street justice and particularly titan weapons were too strong. Titan weapons probably is too strong. My concerns have mostly been allayed by reality: where's the overwhelming TW majority? It lasted for the same amount of time that any new set craze does and now we're back to the status quo: most brutes are SS, TW is in there with "the rest." Does it matter if it's unbalanced if it isn't overrepresented?
Since we're on the subject, I feel that there are two major factors limiting the use of TW. The first is that it is conceptually very narrow. How many CoH players knew they wanted to make a character with a comically oversized hammer before that option was made available to them? The second issue is that the momentum mechanic is kind of annoying in my opinion. In reality it is the set's strength: even the slow versions of the attacks are very good, with momentum the set is ridiculous. In spite of that, it feels to me roughly equivalent to a set where I had no choice but to redraw every other attack. Assuming I'm even right about these flaws, does that mean it's fine that the set is numerically broken? That's a question that datamining can answer.
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If Paragon wants to sell sets, with the power creep THEY made, they need to acknowledge that. Staff Fighting, even if it's design was to be average, it fails to keep up with core melee set design. It's not offering a single powerful attack. A set like Mace is Heavy AoE, with Average ST, and then has Clobber as a 'carry power'. We can compare Staff to this. Staff has Heavy AoE, Average ST... and then no Clobber. What does it get? Some secondary effects that are kind of 'there'? It's Fire Blast Syndrome. Secondary Effects are rarely worth damage. So, what do you do? What would YOU do? |
Speaking of reliable secondary effects, let's look at katana and TW again. "TW makes katana look like junk," you may say, "it even appropriates its previously special trick of having a defense buff!" Yes and no. Defensive sweep is less plausible to fit into a good attack chain than divine avalanche. It has abysmal DPA if you use it to build momentum, but if you use it when you have momentum you're basically wasting a big chunk of your momentum. It is not desirable. Assuming the GC-GD-GC-SD chain, just replace one of the GCs with DA: the chain is fine, no annoyance incurred. More tellingly, though, DS simply has a much smaller defense buff than DA does. What that says to me is that the devs actually spent quite a bit of time working on the balance of a set that raised the eyebrows of many, myself included, with respect to the fact that it was pay-for.
Now, take staff. Does it have a "heavy hitter?" That depends on what you mean. Sky splitter hits plenty hard, but it does so relatively slowly. It's comparable to eviscerate. Rather than being a cone it has a slew of potential other effects tied to it. A good trade? I don't think it can be considered a trade. The set already contains a very good cone and pbaoe, plus a defensive cone that's closer to DA than it is to DS in terms of real utility.
The trade, if there is one, is losing build up in exchange for the forms. That's a trade I'd make any day of the week: I know how to get more damage on my scrappers. Starts with M, ends with usculature. The forms seem tailor-made to shore up the same kind of weaknesses as the alpha slot. You may be tempted to cry foul here; if you can build sets with BU to be fine with musculature, staff gains nothing at all! I don't think that's true.
First I will note that once you factor in the up-time and the animation time, BU isn't actually that much better than just running assault. At the high end the tohit bonus is its more unique trick, yet as we know that is often extraneous. For evidence that the devs agree, see recent sets: SJ an TW both get BUs that have token nerfs to their damage buff in exchange for something much more useful than that. Even if you like BU though, what are you getting instead?
Quite a lot! You have, at any time, the option of choosing an assault-style damage buff, a quickness-style recharge buff or far and away the most powerful, a global endurance discount. That effect is huge. It's huge while leveling, but it can also be huge at the high end depending on what you choose to do with it. The thing to note is that the level 3 buff is basically as powerful as cardiac or vigor. Try and sneeze at that.
Of course, those buffs aren't perma, are they. You cash them in by using one of the key powers in your single target chain or your best aoe. Again, yes and no. You only cash in your perfection if you're already at level 3. If you're already at level 3 then not only do those key powers benefit from the level 3 buff, they also gain additional damage and additional buffs or debuffs. If you're any lower they themselves build perfection and you can then fire the finisher that you hadn't just used as a builder, or you can continue with your chain and enjoy the full strength buff for its duration. That right there is staff's best trick and it is completely opaque unless you dig through the guts of the powers. It has versatility unlike any previous melee set in the game in a way that unfortunately means most people will probably never really understand it.
tl;dr: TW is overrated, staff is destined to forever be underrated. Those in the know will find a lot to like about it.
Versatility is good, and I won't deny it. The Endurance Discount is pretty good, although there's not many reasons not to run the Damage Increase, especially on a Scrapper.
But you may need to sometimes. Versatility is good.
You said this..
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I can answer this: TW/Fire is only a bit better than SS/Fire in terms of speed. It's not ENOUGH to warrant the re-leveling, re-trialing, and re-IOing. That is why you do not see it as often. IS there a difference? Very much so! Is it enough to bother with? Not to most people who are comfortable.| I was pretty worried that street justice and particularly titan weapons were too strong. Titan weapons probably is too strong. My concerns have mostly been allayed by reality: where's the overwhelming TW majority? It lasted for the same amount of time that any new set craze does and now we're back to the status quo: most brutes are SS, TW is in there with "the rest." Does it matter if it's unbalanced if it isn't overrepresented? |
You said this...
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| Speaking of reliable secondary effects, let's look at katana and TW again. "TW makes katana look like junk," you may say, "it even appropriates its previously special trick of having a defense buff!" Yes and no. Defensive sweep is less plausible to fit into a good attack chain than divine avalanche. It has abysmal DPA if you use it to build momentum, but if you use it when you have momentum you're basically wasting a big chunk of your momentum. It is not desirable. Assuming the GC-GD-GC-SD chain, just replace one of the GCs with DA: the chain is fine, no annoyance incurred. More tellingly, though, DS simply has a much smaller defense buff than DA does. What that says to me is that the devs actually spent quite a bit of time working on the balance of a set that raised the eyebrows of many, myself included, with respect to the fact that it was pay-for. |
The same for DS. Same thing.
All in All, Staff has it's versatility, but is that a 'good' thing for what it trades? I don't agree off the bat, truth be told. But time will tell.
... and we all know Stalkers got the better version. Form of the Body PLUS Build Up!
Actually when I said I see less TW than SS, I meant in terms of non-50s. Maybe it's just my luck or something but they seem kind of rare anymore. I do play non-50s a lot more than I play 50s, though.
On DA and suboptimal choices, I think it's a matter of one's outlook on the game. I don't need my staff scrapper to be as good at damage as my TW scrapper because if I want the best damage I'll just play my TW scrapper, you know? I don't even see them as competing in that area: my staff scrapper will have quite good damage for my purposes, which will be different as they will take advantage of the things that staff can do that other sets cannot. In practical terms that all gets fuzzy. There's only so much content in the game and I don't actually perform a detailed evaluation of which of my characters would be optimal for the next thing I'm going to do before I do each thing. Once doing the thing, it gets even worse: how much is my endurance discount contributing on this particular full STF? Hell if I know, the system is too complex for real time statistical analysis off the top of my head in the first place. It all comes down to feel.
How does one know the right time to add DA to one's attack chain, sacrificing however much DPS for survivability at the right time? Through their diverse experiences of myriad scenarios in the game, it'll pretty much just feel right. They could be wrong and end up with more defense than necessary and not enough damage to whittle down that last bit of AV health before running out of endurance. They could be right that the defense is necessary but still get unlucky and die anyway. The important thing is having the options available to you that you want to have to maximize your ability to do what you'd like to be able to do. I'm not trying to tell you anything you don't already know, just articulating why I value more than just damage. I'm getting flashbacks of Werner arguing for cardiac and rebirth instead of musculature and ageless for edge case survival on DA scrappers that one time. But that's different, he's a total survivability weirdo, not like me.
No amount of damage is going to keep the Clockwork King from pounding a TW/FA brute into the ground if said brute eats the alpha on a +2 LGTF. Does that come up that often? No. Are there other things the brute can do about it? Sure. It's just what you choose to prioritize. Staff lets you put your eggs in a lot of different baskets while arguably shorting the single basket that people tend to like the most. Or not. It depends.
Suggesting Staff/Fiery Aura could take that any better?
No, suggesting that the top damage farmer is going to run into a lot of situations in the game that overwhelm its weaknesses. I'm not saying staff itself gets you through any given situation, I'm saying staff contributes to your ability to make build choices that make that character more well-rounded. Good luck finding a well-rounded TW/FA, anyone who makes one of those is going to be building for damage and s/l defense because that's the entire reason they made the character in the first place.
Titan Weapons has one major advantage in that regard; it's VERY reliable knockdown. It is actually, from personal experience, able to 100-0 Lockdown Knockdown spawns. I've done it multiple times, to the point... I got sick and tired of how cheesy the set was. I'm not sure if you've had the same experience (be it level 50 TW or knowing how to do that?), but it's insane.
Titan Weapons versatility could arguably be how reliable it's knockdown can be. And it makes /Fiery Aura a lot more survivable and reliable as a result.
This... is suggesting Fiery Aura is a weak survivability set, which alone I've argued. Great Resistances, one of the best heals in the game? It's quite durable, more so then people say.
All things said, don't underestimate Titan Weapons 'secondary' effect, which is very reliable and it sacrifices no damage for.
Right, but that's one trick. It's a good one, except when it isn't. Fire armor is a great set but you have to spend considerable resources just shoring up its defensive holes for normal play. -KBs aren't expensive but the slots they occupy are. Having zero debuff resistance and bare minimum status protection is questionable in modern content. In exchange for that you get tons of damage, good resists and a good heal. Worth it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That's all I'm saying here. Saying "average damage, set sucks" is painting with a brush just as broad as the one that comes up with "bad against IDF, set sucks" for FA. They're actually pretty cool sets, but they are what they are.
So, in that regard, every other Resistance set not Invulnerability is also weak and needs have it's weaknesses shored up?
Dark Armor has a KB Hole, but has the best heal in the game... and is extremely endurance inefficient with SOs.
Electric Armor's heal has a massive cooldown, but otherwise has no status holes. Just, it IS technically less survivable at SO levels.
Invuln's heal is an even longer cooldown, but it has no status holes + invincibility.
I don't get how people can talk down FA as a paper-thin set, when in reality it's S/L is right up there with Dark and Elec, and has arguably the better heal of the group at SO levels.
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...Staff_Fighting
So judging by the Staff data at City of Data, and make some assumptions about DPA as damage/activation-time, doesn't it seem like the highest DPA attacks (single-target hit) are:
1) Precise Strikes (1.32dmg/1.13cast = 1.17 dpa
2) Serpent's Reach (1.8dmg/1.7cast) = 1.01 dpa
3) Sky Splitter (2.76dmg/2.83cast) = 0.97 dpa *
4) Mercurial Blow (.84dmg/1cast) =0.84 dpa
* Does not include bonus damage from 3 stacks of form
If the above is correct -- and it may not be, because of Aracnatime, or enhanced damage, I really have no idea -- then wouldn't the best attack chain be to set up 3 stacks of form and release with Skysplitter?
SkySplitter has 15 recharge which probably can be taken down to 3.5-3.9 with enough recharge. That's enough time to chain Mercurial (include -RES proc), Serpent's Reach, Precise (3.9 secs total), then Sky Splitter for bonus form damage?
Anyway, open to ideas here.