Any way a Rogue can access Echo: DA and Galaxy?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-04-05 21:37 in Player Questions
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To quote Sylvester Stallone as Judge Dread:|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!
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"I knew you'd say that."
Laughter and ridicule are the actions of a weak mind. An intelligent person would either refute with fact or keep his mouth shut. A person who is learning will make mistakes and learn from them.
I consider myself intelligent, but also learning, which means my ideas and words may be wrong, but at least I try.
You just want to try to "laugh me away", as if ridicule was a proper defense of your ignorance and intolerance of other viewpoints and ideas.
By the way, have you seen the game's code?
Do you carefully observe people?
I haven't seen the code, but I can guess things from the visual output called "the game" that we play every day.
I always observe people, though, as I have learned to be careful to explain myself multiple ways to either avoid offense or calm a person down after mistaken offense.(not the best family life)
I've definitely learned how people are as a result of trial and error and a lot of bad situations.
I don't think you would be as quick to discount me if you were actually talking to me face to face, and you certainly would be a complete idiot if you did without even citing a single FACT to refute me.
Seriously, you don't know any better than I, so assuming I am wrong is like assuming that the world is flat without testing that fact and despite other facts that hint at the world being round.
The only way to know for sure is to actually try to find the truth, instead of laughing at the ones who have ideas.
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You also have to remember that Ouroboros several years old. A lot of the tools they have in place now didn't exist then. IIRC this was one of the main improvements just after they were sold to NC Soft. They would have been just coming up with new systems after quite a while on a fairly low-budge maintenance by Cryptic.
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
The Devs have said before that Ouroboros is a dirty dirty hack. I can't recall if it was something said in a uStream or at the Player Summit, but they did say that as the reason why they haven't combined them.
That's why the "simple" solutions proposed by so many players won't work. |
Ouroboros is a dirty hack. The same contact gives an arc to heroes, and gives a separate arc to villains. They do not have the functionality for a contact to give different alignments different arcs. Heck, they had to dirty hack the contact system to allow Positron to give two different task forces to the same alignment.
I cannot imagine the level of spaghetti code this game has. It kind of gives me the creepy crawlies.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I had already presented the facts in the post previous to yours. Generally, stooping to making insults such as you did are the actions of the weak mind.
No, I haven't seen the game's code, however I know enough about code and working from what several people that have seen the games code tell me, I can draw some decent inferences.
Do I observe people carefully? Yes. And I've had the several opportunities to directly observe several of the Developers in both a formal structured setting and settings that were rather informal and off the cuff. The latter gave a bit more insight as there were occasional slips of the tongue that revealed things that wouldn't have been revealed in a more structured setting and it also had them more relaxed and willing to discuss things in a rather vague manner that they wouldn't have been able to talk about at all in a structured setting.
You may have learned how the people you've observed are through direct observation, but I'm basing mine on direct observation of the Devs themselves, what they've said and how they've said it.
If I were talking to you face to face I'd say pretty much the same things I've said here, without reservation. There are several people on the forums that have met me and will tell you that what you get in person is pretty much what you get here. The only real difference is that in person I don't have to worry about someone else moderating what I've said.
Trying to base other people's thought processes and actions off of what you'd do or what some other people would do is nonsense.
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That is still the most laughable statement I've read on the forums all day.
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I don't need to know how the game works when I know how the human mind works because I know how my own mind works and have observed many other people's actions and words. |
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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This was said either at the Player Summit in November or in one of the uStreams that they've done since Freedom launched.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
You also have to remember that Ouroboros several years old. A lot of the tools they have in place now didn't exist then. IIRC this was one of the main improvements just after they were sold to NC Soft. They would have been just coming up with new systems after quite a while on a fairly low-budge maintenance by Cryptic.
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The comments were made in reference to the tools they have now, not the tools they had several years ago.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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I'd really love this but they said it be a nightmare to recode... But I'm sure if they sat down and recoded it they could do it!
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Honestly, they really need to just combine the two Ouroboros zones into one, rather than have the contacts in two places at once(which are still the same place and time outside of time; time travel makes the brain hurt).
They have the code in place in the game already necessary to sort the arcs int he pillar by alignment so that you can't do opposite alignment stuff(though it would actually make sense to allow everyone to do all alignment content through flashbacks regardless of alignment as some sort of "alternate past" as flashbacks already use as an explanation). They just haven't done it already for the same reason that stops them from fixing bugs that don't completely break an important part of the game...."it doesn't make us more money, so it isn't high priority". That is what is going to bite them in the end with every part of this game. They neglect things in favor of new things for more money. |
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Something for ppl to use
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I recall a statement by Benjamin Bernanke, along the lines of: If my comments seem particularly clear to you, then you have probably misunderstood me.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
It seems pretty obvious to me why they have not fixed a lot of issues, especially ones they claim are "low priority", given the nature of humans.
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It seems "obvious" to you because you have no actual knowledge of the systems you're discussing.
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Then I suggest you follow your own advice. You keep making blind assertions, with nothing even coming close to facts.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
An intelligent person would either refute with fact or keep his mouth shut.
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You're making claims about "oh, it would be easy to do this", when you have ZERO IDEA of the code. You don't have a history of writing code, and you don't know how to write code now (did you do a touch of VB6 years ago and that was it?). Because of all that, you will not appreciate how complicated a modern game engine is (or even an old one). To gain any sort of performance, they have to be a very interconnected beast, which makes changes much harder, as they can (and will) have unforeseen ramifications on any other part of the code base. Modern game engines are filled with dirty hacks to actually be able to perform on current systems (to say nothing of older systems).
Each time anyone tells you "it's not that simple", you simply ignore it, and then repeat what you said again in another thread. That isn't learning, that's spouting.
You also claim you don't need to see the code, because you can see the output... So you're claiming that you can discern how the system works internally via black-box testing... But you're not doing full black-box testing, because you're not actually manipulating the input (you know, all those pigg files... or the network protocol), and only see a limited subset of the output. And, as well, you lack the experience to draw any meaningful conclusions from whatever data you gather. You leap without looking.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Here's a question.
Why can't they make it one zone and stick the ouro mission crystals behind alignment based instanced doors? Like they've got the alignment lounges in Atlas/Cap and Praetoria. Then you've got a single ouro with single functionality for all the stuff you need it to, but the stuff that can't work mixing alignments can't be touched.
Everything else falls into place. At least, that seems to be the core problem, the mission crystals. We know they've got the tech to make the contacts and portals tweaked based on alignment.
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Durakken may be gone, but his logic is still with us.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I don't need to know how the game works when I know how the human mind works because I know how my own mind works and have observed many other people's actions and words.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Here's a question.
Why can't they make it one zone and stick the ouro mission crystals behind alignment based instanced doors? |
Obviously they can. The question is: which zone update/content release would you like to give up so that they can have Issue 24: Fixed Ouroboros? It's all time and money, and no one has unlimited amounts of either.
And assuming that you would rather have a modestly changed Ouroboros with almost no new functionality except for a few rogue corner-cases, do you really think even 10% of the player base would agree with you? I'd guess it's about 5% or less who would actually want to give up a content release just so Rogues can access GC and DA?
In all honesty, I think just adding a quick rift or gate in the existing villain Ouro for Rogues to access GC and DA would be the quickest and easiest, but then I don't know that for a fact either. *shrug*
The moral of this thread: Standard Code Rant.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Actually why don't they put a door in a hero zone say in Talos or something. There is probably code reasons why the did it in ouro. Or put it in Pocket D?
Oh and recoding Ouro would be a nightmare. They have said it also more then once on Ustream that it is a dirty hack+changing alinements is a dirty hack too.
Oh that would be kind of fun if they put the door somewhere as a easter egg.
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They put it in Ouro because you are time traveling backwards, essentially, to a time before those two zones were destroyed.
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Originally Posted by OmnipotentMerlin
Actually why don't they put a door in a hero zone say in Talos or something. There is probably code reasons why the did it in ouro. Or put it in Pocket D?
Oh and recoding Ouro would be a nightmare. They have said it also more then once on Ustream that it is a dirty hack+changing alinements is a dirty hack too. Oh that would be kind of fun if they put the door somewhere as a easter egg. |
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If it really were that simple, they'd have done it already. Given that they haven't done it already means that it is far more complex than you are stating.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
They, and you, are WAY over-thinking the problem.
They have the code in place in other parts of the game to make it very very simple. 1) How do they prevent hero/villain alignments from having access to opposite alignment zones? They have the active object, a door in this case, check the alignment of the character before allowing them through. They could simply put all missions on the same Ouroboros pillar under "if, then" statements that show only the proper list for their specific alignment. It's really that simple. |
Additionally, a pile of IF-THEN statements (or even "CASE" statements) could degrade performance, which is something the developers (and players) would like to avoid.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
2) How do they get contacts to recognize when a player is a rogue/vigilante and thus allow or disallow missions?
They have code in place to check alignment for that as well. |
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I think number 1 is likely the simplest and least time-consuming. It would definitely work.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
It would not take a major rewrite of anything, let alone the entire game.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
This is a bit of example code, though I am unsure of the syntax and actual functions as it has been years since I did any coding.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
My memory of specific coding structure is fuzzy, but I believe that is close to how it would be, aside from the fact that it wouldn't be a simple "cout" function and would instead be the code that shows the list of missions available.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
if (alignment == hero)
. cout>HeroMissionList . cout>NeutralMissionList elseif (alignment == vigilante) . cout>HeroMissionList . cout>NeutralMissionList elseif (alignment == villain) . cout>VillainMissionList . cout>NeutralMissionList elseif (alignment == rogue) . cout>RogueMissionList . cout>NeutralMissionList endif |
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More qualified? No, just "open to ideas" because I haven't been "doing things a certain way for 8 years".|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Oh, I see... Your out of date programming knowledge (which likely didn't get past the amateur level) makes you more qualified than those who have seen the code (the developers) or those with more recent applied programming backgrounds.
This has got to be the most resource heavy way to do it. It would cause more problems than it would solve. |
There is a very good reason for the expression "a fresh set of eyes".
Often, a "complete moron" will say something like "is that jumper cable supposed to be attached to that connector on the battery?" and save the "experienced mechanic" from frying both batteries.(FYI, my dad is an experienced mechanic, after 40 years working at it, and he did that to the lawnmower battery last week, all because he "knew what he was doing" so much that he forgot to check the obvious.)
So don't tell me "you can't possibly have a good idea", especially because "it's so obvious that they wold have done it if it was right", because they "miss the obvious" more than you think, simply because "we're all human".
By the way, how is it "the most resource intensive way to do it" with code that is that short and just does a function call to show the lists they already have programmed to show?
It seems pretty simple, as far as code goes, to me. It doesn't require any nested "if/then" statements or copying and pasting the list every time. It just calls up the list as a function that is likely already programmed.
FYI, you don't know the code either so how do you know it would be "the most resource intensive way"????
Cat got your fingers?
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The old "you don't know what you're talking about" argument made by "another person who knows just as little" is the most common "ignorant hypocritical argument" in the world.
It's like the golden rule, "treat others as you would like to be treated", where a person calls you a name and then is "shocked" that you fire one back and says something like "ooh, big man calling me a name" and doesn't apply the same reasoning to themselves.
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If they were so "concerned about maximizing performance" then they would be getting rid of a lot of the piled up crap we have in the game already. They could have also coded the game a lot more simply and still had it be just as fun in the first place.
They're not concerned with performance until it becomes "unplayable" for too many customers.
If they were concerned with performance then why the hell do we even have SOs anymore or all the different IO sets? Or why the hell do we still have two checks for Ouroboros? Or why do we have instances that create a whole set of NPCs to track for each and every solo player when a world full of open world enemies and content(as the zones already are) that people could share and do together more easily would be less resource intensive?
Performance isn't even their 5th priority. Making more things to ask money for is much more important.
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More like: "standard code excuse....because the people refuting ideas have no more knowledge about the actual code than the people who have ideas yet they act like they are all-knowing and shoot down the idea using supposed facts that they can't possibly know".|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
The moral of this thread: Standard Code Rant.
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It's the most common ignorant "come-back" in the world. A person says something, an insult in this case, and receives an insult back and then says "ooh, such a big man insulting me", as if the rebuke was uncalled for due to them having never said anything.
"Playing innocent when you're really more guilty than the other person" is another phrase for that.
So yeah, shoot down my ideas with your "facts" and excuses, but I know that none of you know any more about how the game works than I do. At least, I have ideas and try to figure it out while you just hand-wave it away as "standard code rant".
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Let me just emphasize this for ya, since you seem to have completely skipped it in your tirade.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Ouroboros is a dirty hack. The same contact gives an arc to heroes, and gives a separate arc to villains. They do not have the functionality for a contact to give different alignments different arcs. Heck, they had to dirty hack the contact system to allow Positron to give two different task forces to the same alignment.
I cannot imagine the level of spaghetti code this game has. It kind of gives me the creepy crawlies. |
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I started programming in 1982. Started. I've probably programmed in a larger variety of languages (ranging from machine language to common modern scripting languages) than you likely have heard about, let alone used. I've probably forgotten more languages than you have used. So while I haven't seen the code itself, I do know coding construction in a variety of programming languages. I am more than qualified to give a general opinion of coding practices even if I can't comment directly on this code.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
FYI, you don't know the code either so how do you know it would be "the most resource intensive way"????
Cat got your fingers? Edit: The old "you don't know what you're talking about" argument made by "another person who knows just as little" is the most common "ignorant hypocritical argument" in the world. It's like the golden rule, "treat others as you would like to be treated", where a person calls you a name and then is "shocked" that you fire one back and says something like "ooh, big man calling me a name" and doesn't apply the same reasoning to themselves. |
The IF-THEN-ELSEIF-ELSEIF-ELSEIF-ELSEIF-ELSEIF-ELSEIF-ELSEIF statement uses more processes than a single IF-THEN statement. If I were someone that gambles, I'd put money on the fact that how the Flashback list is made by a single database query, which would be even faster than an IF-THEN statement would be.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
They're not concerned with performance until it becomes "unplayable" for too many customers.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
If they were concerned with performance then why the hell do we even have SOs anymore or all the different IO sets?
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Or why the hell do we still have two checks for Ouroboros?
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Or why do we have instances that create a whole set of NPCs to track for each and every solo player when a world full of open world enemies and content(as the zones already are) that people could share and do together more easily would be less resource intensive?
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Performance isn't even their 5th priority. Making more things to ask money for is much more important.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
More like: "standard code excuse....because the people refuting ideas have no more knowledge about the actual code than the people who have ideas yet they act like they are all-knowing and shoot down the idea using supposed facts that they can't possibly know".
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
So yeah, shoot down my ideas with your "facts" and excuses, but I know that none of you know any more about how the game works than I do. At least, I have ideas and try to figure it out while you just hand-wave it away as "standard code rant".
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No one is saying you can't have a good idea. But when you start drawing conclusions about why something was done a certain way, or telling us how easy it is to change, then you are spouting pure drivel.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
So don't tell me "you can't possibly have a good idea", especially because "it's so obvious that they wold have done it if it was right", because they "miss the obvious" more than you think, simply because "we're all human".
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| At least, I have ideas and try to figure it out while you just hand-wave it away as "standard code rant". |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
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Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.