Give Scrappers a real inherent power
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-03-23 13:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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If damage meters existed at the beginning of time, everyone's damage would have almost certainly been normalized around average defender damage. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
But they are as close to a 'base' AT as there is in this game.
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| I would relish a serious look at how crazy this game is today. The AoE love fest has gotten rather boring. |
High recharge probably accounts for most of the offensive escalation since Issue 9. We build for more recharge than many MMOs are capable of giving to their operators even with admin codes.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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It's the entire thread and the premise therein that is the culprit.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Honestly I was just trying to make a stupid joke and at this point it is not only dead on arrival but is stinking up the place.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Aren't you the ray of sunshine. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
It's the entire thread and the premise therein that is the culprit.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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What blows my mind is how we turn our noses up at 'minor' damage boosts of 2.5% or so. One of my Scrappers, purely as a side effect of stacking recharge and defense, has a 15% damage bonus. Which is something people would kill for in most games. Never mind the 90% recharge boost! |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I have often heard it said that one of the things that's very hard to get out of the invention system is damage. But to me that's an incredible assertion to make, because the number one most popular optimization path through the invention system has always been to stack recharge specifically to increase damage. AoE always benefits from recharge, and single target always benefits from recharge as long as you have at least one or two high DPA attacks that you can preferentially use.
High recharge probably accounts for most of the offensive escalation since Issue 9. We build for more recharge than many MMOs are capable of giving to their operators even with admin codes. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
If the devs are going to change scrappers' inherent power (and I hope they don't), please don't do this. It's a bad suggestion.
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No it's a good suggestion. It takes nothing away, only adding a fluff ability. Honestly, you would think I was asking them to double Scrapper damage modifiers or something. |
Originally Posted by firespray
If the devs are going to change scrappers' inherent power (and I hope they don't), please don't do this. It's a bad suggestion.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I just don't like the 4 chan stir it up tactic or argument for something with no merit. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Aren't you the ray of sunshine.
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There are plenty of issues to promote the devs spend their time repairing, updating and adding without this frivolous drivel being rolled out the past few days and everyone here knows it.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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There are always plenty of issues. This is one of the more specious forms of attack used on these boards. The premise is that whatever the poster is complaining about or asking for is so minor as not to be worth the devs time. But then that's a statement of preference.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I just don't like the 4 chan stir it up tactic or argument for something with no merit.
There are plenty of issues to promote the devs spend their time repairing, updating and adding without this frivolous drivel being rolled out the past few days and everyone here knows it. |
You may not personally care about the Scrapper AT. You might think they are perfectly fine or better and would like your personal pet project looked at first. You are free to champion whatever grievance you feel you have.
I certainly appreciate your posts, as I did for all those people who have argued with me over the years. It keeps the issue alive. To paraphrase a cliche, "Well-behaved posters rarely get the changes they seek."
Thank you for the argument. Evil Lizards need to go to bed before they pass out. Should you be up for it, I will argue with you more tomorrow.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I was not arguing with you or anyone else, just stating the fact that scrappers are fine and need none of the suggested work that has sprung up only after stalkers were buffed.
There is nothing specious about calling people on their BS regarding this issue.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
As an aside, to whoever it may concern: Are you enjoying those criticals?
I know I am - that boss suddenly just dropping, oneshotting a minion, darn I wasted that crit on the guy who was almost down. And my first proper stalker is just coming up, but on a stalker the random criticals feel insignificant compared to the "generated" ones.
And I'm fine with stalkers out damaging scrappers. What's properly imbalanced in this game anyway? Übercrabs?
I have the perfect inherent for scrappers. Every time they defeat someone, rose petals get sprinkled at their feet...
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Don't bring us into this! We think this idea is silly too!
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
My Druid in EQ2 actually can do that. So don't assume I disagree!
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For the record, I had thought this may happen when first hearing about the Stalker changes. And I'm still perplexed because, even though I accepted the changes, that didn't change my stance on the subject. And here we are, rolling in the discourse I was talking about but still get scoffed at, like we're all just eventually going to sweep this under the rug.
Although I'm not accusing anyone of petitioning for changes, this shift isn't just a little phase that will stop in a couple of weeks...
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Just because it doesn't take anything away from scrappers doesn't automatically make it a good suggestion. It's a bad idea because it gives scrappers something they can easily get anyway but for the most part don't because no one cares. It's useless and useless = bad.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
No it's a good suggestion. It takes nothing away, only adding a fluff ability. Honestly, you would think I was asking them to double Scrapper damage modifiers or something.
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You're right, it isn't a little phase. It's been around for quite some time, actually, long before the Stalker changes. It's seeing a bit of a surge now that it's not just Brutes competing with Scrappers, but it is not new, it will probably not go away soon, and it will become no less absurd.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
For the record, I had thought this may happen when first hearing about the Stalker changes. And I'm still perplexed because, even though I accepted the changes, that didn't change my stance on the subject. And here we are, rolling in the discourse I was talking about but still get scoffed at, like we're all just eventually going to sweep this under the rug.
Although I'm not accusing anyone of petitioning for changes, this shift isn't just a little phase that will stop in a couple of weeks... |
Scrappers still get Titan Weapons, Stalkers don't.
Scrappers still get Shield Defense, Stalkers don't.
Stalkers should deal more up-front, no-support damage, which they do.
In a soloing scenario, with out Stalkers getting their team buffs going, it likely equalizes more. Soloing though, Stalkers do have less AoE (In most cases) And less Survivable (in all cases).
Just... ugh.
Scrappers fine.
Okay, first off... I'm not realy convinced and Scrapper change is necessary, given the solid nature of the AT. I can see an argument that there is nothing 'Unique' to Scrappers anymore, so... I came up with an actual honest idea.
There is a single power available to all Scrappers that just about none of them use, and for a good reason. Confront is a Single Target, half-strength version of Taunt, after all, on an AT which possesses the general attitude of 'If you want Aggro, stab something in the face.'
So, my proposal: Alter how Confront works. Instead of being a single target/half durration clone of the Tanker/Brute Taunt, make it stronger! Magnatude 6 (or higher), full durration instead of half of the Tanker/Brute version (or higher!), and a 90% Range debuff, instead of the standard 75%. This would ensure that, not only would High-rank targets be affected, but that they will concentrate on the Scrapper to the exclusion of everything else, and even be kind enough to walk right up to where the scrapper is most dagnerous.
In short - let Scrappers inflict an enemy target of their choice with a form of Scrapperlock! ^_^
Of course, this would probably be accompanied by a much-increased recharge time, and a chance to miss in PvE, so YMMV. But I think it would be something Scrappers could hold up as 'Unique' without being a real buff.
Then again, I'm probably overthinking things, so...
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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I was thinking this lol, but wasn't sure how to work it.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
let Scrappers inflict an enemy target of their choice with a form of Scrapperlock!
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You opinion, of course. But factually you're wrong. Having to continually craft a temp power is not something that even all players can't get because it's a finite resource. The fact that you don't see a use for it says more about your playstyle than anything.|
Originally Posted by firespray
Just because it doesn't take anything away from scrappers doesn't automatically make it a good suggestion. It's a bad idea because it gives scrappers something they can easily get anyway but for the most part don't because no one cares. It's useless and useless = bad.
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But thank you for your opinion.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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You kid, but that would be frikken awesome. |
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I have the perfect inherent for scrappers. Every time they defeat someone, rose petals get sprinkled at their feet...
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I have no problem whatsoever with Stalkers outdamaging Scrappers. I have a real problem with Stalkers having the Scrapper inherent + a crapload of stuff on the side.|
Originally Posted by Resolve
And I'm fine with stalkers out damaging scrappers. What's properly imbalanced in this game anyway? Übercrabs?
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Arcanaville tells this story a lot, and it's true. Inherent powers in pre-CoV were designed specifically to deal with problems with certain ATs. Defenders didn't get one for a long time because they really have no need of one. CoV turned that upside down since they designed all the ATs in that game to depend on their criticals mechanically.
Interestingly enough there is one AT who truly, honestly doesn't have an inherent. It's the SOAs. Their 'inherent' is just an icon and text description. They were always going to have slightly higher regen/recovery anyway. But SoA are tank mages in the classic sense of the term and one of the more unique play options in the game so who care?
Scrappers have half of that. They are tank mages, but hardly unique in that (this is something they share with Brutes, Stalkers, Controllers, SoAs, Warshades, a few Tankers combos, a few Defender combos, Dominators, Masterminds, a few Corruptor combos). Being 'fine' didn't stop the recent changes to several ATs.
But all of those other tank-mages in this game of tank-mages have something that the AT can claim is theirs. Scrappers must share their inherent. In fact, they witnessed not only the entirety of their inherent being given to another AT, but that AT getting a better version of that inherent. And having a half-dozen other unique tricks on the side.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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It's truly only in City of Heroes where people can think Hide and Placate have no effect on survivability. In most games, Placate would be the subject of multi-page whines about how OP it is. Here is a power that immediately stops a target from being able to target you and puts you into stealth. But that to hear people here tell it has no effect on survivability.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
And less Survivable (in all cases).
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Sigh...
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Placate has an effect on survivability, obviously. It just has LESS of an effect than, y'know, actually being tougher.
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Not really. It's a defensive cooldown to borrow a WoW term. And a darn good one. It can be used to gain breathing space to pop a heal, regen, escape, etc.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Placate has an effect on survivability, obviously. It just has LESS of an effect than, y'know, actually being tougher.
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I use it very similarly to MoG. If I'm fighting something that's really strong and the damage is getting to be too much, pop Placate and you have some free 100% mitigation. It's only in this game where people turn their noses up at Regeneration because you have to push a button once in awhile that people can't see how to use Placate to save their butts.
And folks act like the difference in survivability between Scrappers and Stalkers is the same as between Brutes and Scrappers. It is not. It is significantly less even taking Hide and Placate out of the picture. Scrappers and Stalkers share defensive and resistance modifiers and caps. The only difference is 138 Health at level 50 base and about 400 cap IIRC. With Brutes v. Scrappers the base difference is 161 health base at 50 and about 800 Health capped. AND Brutes have higher resistance caps, which several sets (e.g. Fire, Electric) can leverage.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
If sustained DPS wasn't their thing, and AoE damage wasn't their thing, and non-teamed damage wasn't their thing, it seems silly to claim they outdamaged scrappers without adding heavy qualifiers to such a statement. In certain situations, sure. In general, absolutely not.