Downside to DoubleXP

Plus the fact that you've mentioned you are more than willing to help others "level up" via the lower trials, which you run constantly. I once paid a visit to Triumph and know you are not making that up.

I'm not sure what's so difficult to grasp about not wanting your playtime wasted. SOME poeople act like we are getting paid to lead trials and herd 15 or more other players.

Let me put it in a simpler way: When I lead the ******* trials I run them my ******* way. If you think the way I'm running them is wrong, quit and form you ******* own.

Easy to get now?



EDIT: Sorry to get heated but this telling others how to play the game (when i don't pay their sub) has ALWAYS been a pet peeve of mine in this game community. It's just rearing is ugly head AGAIN for the 1000th time in this thread.

Originally by Arcanaville: Everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules.

As long as we can agree that he has the ability to run trials he leads the way he wants there really is no further point for discussion.

/shrug.

My thoughts exactly.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

A single Widow can grant 30% psionic resist, 15% Defense, 5% To-hit to the whole league while giving an extra 10% To-hit, 7.5% more defense, and 15% damage boost with 5 additional confuse/terror protoection and 60% confuse resist. These bonuses far outweight any detriments via level shifts that they may not have. This is just an example of that is provided. When we look at what other sets can provide, like Sonic's 60% resist boost or Cold's 30% defense boost or Rad's heals and damage boosts. I've even seen unshifted tanks hold the aggro of AVs just fine. With all of that data, I find the idea that a single 53 is 6-8 times better than a 50 to be an inaccurate oversimplification. Also, there is such a thing as a player with incarnate abilities that is not fully level shifted, due to the randomness of salvage drops capable of not granting those players rares/VRs. There is a road between 50 and 53, and it includes 51 and 52 players.

Of course, this isn't what my issue is.


If you host a MoM/DD/UG with only 53s, then you have removed those 53s from any other league being formed for the next 20 hours. Simultaneous hosting is far from the issue. Of course, I'm not talking exclusively about Triumph, either.


Good info to know, but regardless this doesn't actually debate the point. Also, this isn't always specific to Triumph.



Standard not-triumph rant. The UG gives a guaranteed rared/VR, which is often the hurdle that a player needs to climb in order to get a level shift. MoM gives 2 Emps and if run with a knowledgeable league can go quite fast. The ease of which DD gets it's MO badge, which grants a rare upon reward, makes it rewarding enough, let alone it's higher chance to give better rewards. The solo incarnate path is so slow that it is practically an insult to players who want a solo run.

But you are saying that it isn't your fault, and that you need to host these with those requirements. If you want to go back on that, I'll understand. Level shifts themselves serve as a tool to increase the durability and danger of an AV without having to resort to massive resists and ridiculous damage output. Because of this, it is quite possible that AVs are built with level shifts while not requiring them. And finally, whenever someone hosts a non-required trial, it is undoubtedly a benefit to have a mix of 53s along with everyone else, mostly for the primary damage dealers. So if I want to host a non-limited trial, then this means that whomever hosted the limited trial has taken away from my leagues performance.



Your definition of leeching is that they don't have the levels that you are requiring, so lets not surgar coat it. Now, I am aware that it is my problem, and my way to resolve this problem is to argue with you to convince you and the others that these requirements are not necessary and thus it will be beneficial for everyone.

Now, let me explain this "everyone" part. Lets assume for this example that there are 32 players, 16 fully shifted and 16 not fully shifted. If a team that is half and half between the groups can easily succeed at a trial (DD or MoM for this example), then running the trial with the 16 +3s makes it so the 16 other players won't be able to succeed at the trial should someone take their volition to host another one. However, running it at half and half makes it so all 32 players get to go on those trials, to the benefit of everyone. This is also part of the reason why it is I am asking for justification: the level requirement is excluding other players, and the normal justification for this is that the trial cannot succeed without those requirements. But if it isn't necessary to succeed and the level requirement is just a personal preference, then this means that the personal preference is just malicious toward the rest of the player base.


Probably not. I'm using "elitist" as a means of saying that peak conditions for success are a requirement, and as a way to continually convey the same message without it getting stale through repetitive vocabulary.


I ran a successful no-limit UG after DXP weekend that succeeded with only one clarion. That seems like a pretty easy requirement to fulfill.


I said just the opposite when I stated " Though this isn't about all people not being able to do the trials with 50s".



The whole case I've been building is that this does infringe on other people's playstyle. This goes far beyond just how you play the game. Work and playtime are antonyms, and if you don't enjoy playing the game for the game's sake then this is a problem in itself. A big problem with elitism is this demonstrated "It's all about ME ME ME" attitude. It is detrimental, no fun to be around, and creates a shield that prevents someone from seeing how their actions affect others. Justifying your actions only by saying you are free to do them is along the same lines of saying that you are free to do any evil action if it is allowed by the system. Ultimately it is selfish, malicious, and a detriment to the community.


For most players I play with, it is an issue. Players tend to want to improve the characters that need improving and will neglect the ones that don't need improving unless they are acting for the benefit of others that do need improving. It is the just net flow of things in the game. Now, the RNG itself is a cruel mistress that you eventually discover is a mister; I leveled two toons to 50 on the weekend, and it took me over twice as long to get one to 53 than it did the other just because of RNG hate. Now, my schedule right now is pretty open, so I can do the whole "run every trial on those toons once a day" thing. I pity those who don't have the time allotment.



It would probably be a lot more time saving if you didn't take every single mention of the conclusion of my argument out of context just to go "NO!". BTW yeah I would call that elitist. I have also seen worse, though. I've seen people request 53s, specific ATs/Powers, and IOed out only. It is kind of funny because sometimes these things take long enough to run the trial twice, so the net effect is that you can get two shots to succeed in the trial where the other one gets only one. As long as your success rate is higher than 50% this is a net gain over the requirements.

Frankly, I'm surprised that few other people realize that the player base is a limited commodity. I figured this out forming Ice Mistrals redside a year ago.

I can't run trials the way I want to because of the way they run trials!

I know SnowGlobe can be a bit pedantic, but I've never seen one of his trials last more than fourteen, fifteen hours max including instructions.

BRA: maybe you should go to Triumph and form a rival league to Snow Globes.

Not to mention the overhanging "Des-rez" time penalty. The last trial I was on failed for exactly that reason by two players taking the rez at the same time when we had 35 seconds left. The final AV.... was at 1/100 health when the timer ran out. So I quit. No more trials, no more stress.

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

That applies to teams in general

That assumes several factors:

• That the player only has one level 53 character.
  
  Like I said, I've got at least 10 of my own at +3. I know several other players with more.
• That the player isn't willing to do a trial more than once on the same character in the same day.
  
  I've done this plenty of times. I know several other players that do the same. Even in your post you mention that players you team with do so.
• That the player is not interested in the reward table instead of Empyrean Merits.
  
  For some players the reward table means more to them than the Empyrean Merits.

Oh, and Arcanaville's comments about a 14-15 hour trial... I'd quit at hour 4 in disgust. I'm not talking about the trial. I mean the game for at least a week.

So does Keyes and TPN. TPN also gives a Emp merit for each run after the first in one day, just like MoM (which doesn't give 2 Emps after the first run in one day). TPN also gives a bonus reward of 60 threads mid-trial, just like Underground, which is MORE than a MoM trial. I've been running regular TPN/Keyes trials. Your point that I'm limiting growth for other players is therefore bogus.

Oh, and after seeing several failed DD trials, my opinion of that matches Underground: It doesn't matter what the potential reward is when the trial fails. Trial failure means no rewards, therefore no progress.

And you say that I'm selfish? Give me a break. This is all about you, not me. At least I'm more honest about my requirements.

Wing_Leader put it more succinctly:
I've been saying this for as long as I've been able to play them.

The developers putting level shifts on the later trials is a blatant crutch that compounds trial gimmicks to the point where failure due to a few players is more certain. To combat that chance of failure, I ask for higher level shifts.

You don't have a snowball's hope in hell of convincing me of that. You are wasting both your time and my time continuing this fruitless point.

As I've pointed out, that isn't likely to happen on the server I frequent. Even if it were to happen, the second group could still do a BAF (few as 12), Lambda (few as 8), Keyes (few as 12), or TPN (few as 12). Keyes is about as rewarding than DD, and TPN has greater rewards than DD. So your justification isn't valid because the characters I don't see as qualified for the level shifts and gimmicks that a trial have an equal chance at a rewarding trial.

Yup, and I don't see asking for level shifts on harder trials as asking for peak conditions for success. I see asking for X, Y, and Z ATs, with specific powers to be asking for peak conditions.

You got lucky. I prefer to minimize luck, thank you very much.

The moment you, or another player tells me who I should or should not invite to a league I am forming, it becomes work for me.

This is why I ask for people to bring characters worthy of the trial they are facing. What a shock. The fallacy that you are putting forth is that I don't enjoy playing the game. Far from it. What I don't enjoy is players bringing characters to content that they are not suited which in turns wastes my play time.

You know, I can say the same for your posts in this thread. They aren't about my play style, what I ask for in the leagues I run, or even about the trials themselves. You are complaining how I'm ruining YOUR play (despite the fact that we're not even on the same server), by asking for some standards.

The same attitude you describe in this quote applies equally to players that want on any trial without restriction. It is ultimately selfish, malicious, and a detriment to the community to give into their selfish demands that they join a league where they aren't willing to put forth enough effort (despite being given the opportunity to gain those level shifts) to meet some

Funny you should mention that. With mixed-shifted MoM trials I have a 100% failure rate. After I started asking for +3s, that has dropped to 27% failure rate. I don't know, but with that much of an improvement, I'm going to stick with what works.

I'm entirely glad that I know you are joking. I'd find a way to get back at every single player responsible for that kind of travesty.

I've also been saying this.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

So you want to selfishly insist that I change how I run trials so that you run them the way that you want.

You want to ignore the fact that I help to get people to my requirements so you can selfishly run them the way that you want.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Well, thanks for doing your part to bring the WOW mentality to this game!

Funny, sounds exactly like elitism to anyone who's not flat-out deluding themselves....

Top-teir requirements? CHECK!
Patronizing those who don't meet said requirements? CHECK!
Belittling anyone who doesn't like said requirements? CHECK!

Yup. Elitism by the book.

Mind you, I'm not saying it makes him automatically a bad person. Nor am I saying it isn't very much his right to set those standards. However, let's be honest about what it is.

If I wanted to bring the WoW mentality to this game I'd demand that each player to bring a specific Archetype, level shift, and specific Incarnate powers.

As to your other post, I'm not requiring "top tier requirements. If I was, I'd ask everyone to bring fully Tier 4'd characters to all incarnate trials.

So put a sock in it.

Edit:
Oh, yeah... If people want me to invite 50+0s to any trial, then they'd have better luck getting the developers to drop the level shifts on the trials themselves.

If Underground were +0 (and had a few other changes), I'd not ask for level shifts.

If MoM were +0 (and had a few other changes), I'd not ask for level shifts.

If DD were +0, I'd not ask for level shifts.

I don't know if the developers will budge, but they are more likely to than I am over this subject.

Yeah... Helping others to get level shifts to meet my requirements is patronizing...

No, that is a free service I provide to those that engage in posting without thinking.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

I myself have personally spoken out frequently and often about players getting excluded from teams for all kinds of reasons. In my opinion, you should play whatever you want and if the team is any good, most of the time whatever you want is going to be good enough. The team has to be pretty shaky to begin with if one scrapper without mez protection or a petless mastermind brings the whole thing down.

But I do make an exception for tasks which have a proven track record of failing when certain power levels are not met. If you want to attempt a four player Eden trial, and you find three other daredevils, that's cool. But by the same token if those four players decide that isn't going to work so its not worth the effort, that's cool also.

Asking for lots of level shifts and incarnate powers in BAF, or Lambda, or even Keyes is probably overkill. I've seen them succeed many times without them. But MoM, TPN, and Underground all have aspects to them that can make them impossible to complete with leagues below a certain power level. And in some cases, you won't know until you've spent a long time getting to that point. Given that, if league leaders decide to only lead leagues that satisfy certain minimum requirements, I don't consider it elitism if they feel they are severely impacting the odds of success by not adhering to those standards.

You can run Apex with a team full of non-incarnates, but you're going to lose. Its not elitist to ask for players to be at least Alpha slotted. For Underground, MoM, TPN, and DD I don't think its as bad, but I do think its a judgment call on the league leaders.

Steps down the road.

...You seem to think this is a black and white thing... Just because you don't require EVERYTHING top-tier doesn't mean you don't meet the description.

Trying to demand that those who disagree with your stance be silent? CHECK!

Actually, it does mean that I don't meet the description. For me to meet the description, I have to meet all the description.

No, just you at this point. I treat people with equal respect to the respect that they treat me with. In your case, I'm actually treating you better than you are treating me.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

I speak only for myself, but I want you to consider being only slightly less stringent in your requirements for your trials. If, as you say, you are one of your server's foremost trial runners, that could materially improve the fun level of a lot of people, yourself included, without having an impact on your success rate. Reminder: I'm not saying you should run all-50 DDs. I'm saying you should relax your +3 requirement when it's clear that a little bit of slack is available in the league assembled thus far.

Uhh, whatever. When you get over this delusion that the matter is black and white, get back to me. Until then, I see no need to engage in a battle of wits with a foe who refuses to arm himself ( and I know you're capable of it ).

Pffft!

BWAHAHAHA! Really, you should do standup. This is hilarious stuff.

...what, you're serious? You think the above is true?

......

Okay, now I'm just depressed. Maybe I was wrong before about your capability of arming yourself.

I'm so sorry you can't handle being told that you're being elitist ( which is damn true. Setting unnecessarily high tier requirements and patronizing anyone who doesn't like it is textbook elitist behavior, period ). However, every reply you've made to me thus far has only reinforced that assessment of you. See, the self-delusion that you're somehow the exception to the "elitist" template is another big red-flag elitist characteristic.....

Note that I said this elitist behavior doesn't make you a bad person and that you have every right to set whatever requirements you want. No, what makes you a "bad person" is the knee-jerk patronizing of everyone who dares disagree with you.