Downside to DoubleXP

Maybe I didn't put a fine enough point on my posts. You can take your opinion and do this:



You clearly demonstrate the elitism that Blood Red Arachnid is complaining about.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

That discussion is over. Quit trying to pick a fight.


Wrong. Quit trying to pick a fight.


Wrong Quit trying to pick a fight.


Wrong Quit trying to pick a fight.


Wrong. That discussion is over. Quit trying to pick a fight. It doesn't make sense.

Wrong. Sports teams go with the bet because they are heading against other teams where they are going for the best bet, and in this case one team must lose to another. Trials run independently of each other, so there is absolutely no reason for one trial to hoard all of the higher levels. BTW, that discussion is over.


Teams win against other teams, where one's success necessitates the other's failure. Trials don't do that, or at least they don't need to do that. However I digress: that discussion is over.


So elitism isn't elitism if the elitist doesn't think they are elitist...


Then don't look at it that way.


All leagues but MoM and DD: Everyone is welcome.
MoM and DD: +1 required. DD not set in stone yet.


Seriously. You don't get it, do you? That discussion is over. So cry moar, even though it doesn't help anything.

Especially Undergrounds. That Preservation Specialist badge isn't going to just miracle itself into my badge tray, you know.

I think Snow Globe should practice first on some easier content, like Master of Lady Grey and Master of Fifth Column. And I will go along to observe and make sure he makes significant improvement before going back to lead trials.

And if that's not enough, then I think he should lead, hmm, twenty-four consecutive weekly strike forces and I will demorecord them to ensure there is a record of perfect execution of the content.

I can assure you that I will not rest until Snow Globe becomes the perfect league leading machine even if I he has to acquire every last badge I'm missing. And if even that's not enough, I have alts.

I guess we'll just have to disagree here. Elitism is practiced under the perceived need.


I never said it makes a slippery slope to increasingly higher restrictions. That was Tyger42. As for people who are saying that they should run trials the way Snowglobe does, that is Wing_Leader (at least I think that was what he was saying in a roundabout way). That is the whole "incarnate trials are unfair and need these" argument I've had. I also am not talking about people emulating snowglobe in any sense. The idea of having stringent requirements for particular trials isn't anything new as much as it is a reoccurring trend that has a habit of self-reinforcing. If people keep going around saying, and not just specifically in this topic, that you need +3s only and then only host with +3, it makes it so forming mixed teams is a whole lot harder. Not just because the 53s get eaten up by the other trials, but because people won't bring anything else to the trial other than a 53, compounding the effect.



EDIT: Oh yeah, the UG. I actually find that to be the trial with the highest failure rate, mostly because the UG trial is one of the few cases where you can try to do everything right and still not do well. The effects of the AVs can't be "negated" as much as they can be lessened. Even while air-taunting you get those stray targets. The avatar is nasty on all accounts, with possibly the most detrimental effect I've seen any AV ever have.

I'm following along. But you also suggested that how SnowGlobe runs trials has some relevance to how they are run on other servers:

As far as I know, SnowGlobe doesn't run trials on other servers, so if you're implying that what he does has relevance for other servers, that also implies you also believe there exists the possibility that what he does can degrade trial running on other servers by perpetuating a philosophy that degenerates over time. That's a slippery slope suggestion. He does it, so other people will do it, and that will get worse over time.


Which is *another* slippery slope argument. Except while that could happen on other servers, it basically can't happen on Triumph because the trial running population is too small for that to happen, and because of the way trials are run on Triumph. If you were on Triumph, you'd know the "other trials" you are worried about don't exist. Except for the first few weeks of I19 release, do you know how many times I've had to choose which trial to run of more than one being run? Probably less than ten. Out of hundreds. Its been even less often that I've heard of a trial being formed while I was actually on a trial. I'm not on as often as some people, so perhaps it happens more often than that. But it doesn't happen often in any case.


What happens on Triumph is that Lambda, BAF, and Keyes are run far more often than any other trial, and on those trials everyone is basically free to bring anything. Its those trials that *create* +2s and +3s. Requiring people to bring +3s to MoM, Underground, and DD doesn't self-reinforce only bringing +3s, because running them isn't necessary to create a +3 on Triumph. +3s are created elsewhere: in Lambdas and BAFs especially. So long as those trials are being run far more often than the other trials, there is no positive reinforcing cycle that can lock people into only playing +3s. The most commonly run trials don't require +3s, and they ultimately create +3s.

I am pretty sure that I have been clear that the stringent requirements isn't all somehow all Snowglobe's fault. I mention about how it isn't exclusively about triumph to emphasize that this isn't all about Snowglobe. It never has been all about Snowglobe. The mentality exists, and it is self-perpetuating, but it is not degenerating. This never was a problem about what might happen in the future. It is an issue now, not later. Even my assumption as to how the requirements form indicates stasis.


I must iterate the imminency the issue. Could it better? Of course. Could it get worse? Of course. I experienced the issue just 5 hours ago, so if anything the problem is in stasis rather than any slippery slope. Now, if the whole case against the limited player commodity is that certain servers are scarce enough that no one would host another relevant trial within 20 hours, this isn't actually debating my case. It is trying to find an exception to my case. This would imply that the conditions I outlined are correct, but not ubiquitously absolutely applicable.

Somehow this aspect has been lost, but when I was talking about bringing +3s to the trials, the "particular trials" were MoM, DD, and UG. This doesn't have an effect of causing other trials to limit players, nor have I said that it would.

Finally, stating the slippery slope and ending it at that is something known as the fallacy fallacy: Characterizing an argument based on flawed premises doesn't immediately mean that the argument is incorrect. I.E. if I say "2 + 2 = 4 because my uncle steve said so", the statement itself isn't incorrect while the reasoning for it is. Likewise, I am not saying that the issue is self-perpetuating because things that are bad get worse. I never actually gave a full explanation that the problem would be self perpetuating since I didn't think it would actually be an issue. But alas here I go: The reason why the stringent requirements are self perpetuating is ultimately due to the tendency of people in general to stay in the comfort zone. A team of all +3s does have an improved chance of succeeding at a trial, and if this succeeds then there must be an outside motive that would cause players to stray away from that guarantee. People who join these trials that succeed and see these trials that succeed and talk about these trials that succeed perceive the obvious difference between successful runs and failed runs and then assume it to be the determining factor. It is just simple pattern recognition. When this ideology became widespread it became a norm, and thus people both consciously and subconsciously abide by the normal standard.

It was a very weird sight today when I formed a MoM -> DD run to get all of the AV resists. I said my normal requirement of "51+" and left it at that. And yet, all the players who wanted to join up would say things like "I'm 52. Is that O.K.?", and "Can I join? I'm a blaster." or "Do you want me to try and see if I can get myself up to 53?". My response was always "just bring what you want". I never told them that you have to be 53 to or have specific ATs to join up, and yet they all acted as if I was broadcasting the common "53s, widows/dark manipulation preferred, have your IO sets" that I see on the server every day. It took half an hour to get 15 more people together, and this happened at 5:00 PM EST.

I think I need to rest up... This sounds like a grueling schedule you have planned. Though I can think of a group of players that could help with MoLGTF, but the developers have to fix Khan before I run that again.

Then stop telling me how to make my teams. Stop complaining that I'm somehow taking away incarnate candy from players and that I'm blocking other player's incarnate progress when I'm not.

Yeah... I'm getting that you don't get that you are coming across as telling people how to play.

You don't know much about sports, huh? Take mountain climbing, for instance. That is a sport. Just like mountain climbing, the "opponent" in the trials is the trail itself.

No, I'm saying that your actions in this thread are just as much elitist as you are claiming that others are elitist by asking for more level shifts. But go ahead, keep your blinders on.

Oh, and I'm amused that you've accused Arcanaville of a logical fallacy that you are committing.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

It just happens to be an exception that covers the entirety of the specifics of what's being discussed.

Can't have it both ways. If you believe SnowGlobe's actions have consequences outside of Triumph, I can respond to your statements within that context. If you believe SnowGlobe's actions have no consequences outside of Triumph, then mentioning other servers is irrelevant to SnowGlobe's conduct. You have to pick one or the other, but at the moment you are attempting to use both and deny both.

You should probably make it snappy, because SnowGlobe's going to be pretty busy soon, and he gets cranky when my badge count gets within a dozen of his.

Trying to pin this all about whether or not snowglobe's is particularly crucial to the matter is like trying to blame any one drop of water for a flood. There exists a degree inbetween in which personal contribution and group contribution overlap to create the situation present. Though Snowglobe isn't someone who is wholly responsible for all the problems that I personally encounter, it isn't accurate to say that he is wholly irresponsible either. The servers in the game are undoubtedly linked, through the forums, global channels, global friends, in-game e-mail, and other media that I may have not mentioned. It is quite accurate to say that Snowglobe does have an effect, even though it isn't a direct one.

Since trial leaders are quite rare, it isn't an unsafe assumption that their actions have quite an impact on their server. Impact on the server translates to a lesser impact on the game as a whole. For example, I myself am not a social person in the game. But I lead trials, and as time went on I now have people who address me personally and recognize my global, going all "It's a trap!", paying compliments and asking me to host their trial for them while I am still wondering who they are and how they know about that whole Ackbar thing. I don't know many other players that get that kind of recognition without even trying. I'm getting more and more famous just because I don't want to sit around and wait for someone to start forming a trial. I'm certain that I have an impact on the server and the game as a whole, albeit a small one. Just another droplet of water.

Now, as for trying to find the exception, this whole thing about no one running other trials for the rest of the day reminds me of something that I was taught pertaining to affirmative action in the real world. I don't know if this has a particular name, so I'm going to have to spend awhile explaining it. There is form of "soft discrimination" is a case where discrimination becomes such a widespread and recognized that society just develops a status to it and ceases trying to fight it. The example I was given was about how some town's police force was all white. When investigated, the police force showed all of the resumés to... whomever was investigation (damn I wish I didn't have the memory of a 60 year old man), saying "Look, the only people who apply here are white. We can't hire minorities if they don't apply". This, of course, didn't prove that discrimination wasn't occurring. There had to have been a reason why it was like that. It turns out that the oppressive nature of the police force had made it so minorities in the town wouldn't even try to apply to the police force. After enough minorities being turned away, they got the message and just stopped trying.

Now take this "soft discrimination" applied to the game. If we consider this phenomena, then the lack of people trying to form alternate hard trials without the requirement isn't a clean bill of health for the server. It could be that the server population's will to do otherwise is broken. Too timid from the scorn of failure to take risks, too unsure or insecure to host the trial, not knowedgeable enough to adapt to different situations, not enough free time to take a shot, and no one there to encourage them. If the stringent requirements would be a detriment to whom hosts the trials a different way, then those stringent requirements would be discouraging people from trying. It isn't widely considered that the playerbase is a finite commodity, and if the phenomena I described happens, then the player who hosted the mixed league isn't likely to attribute their failure to the league that came before them. They're likely to go with the level shifts, because it is easy to see and it does have an effect. This would just be a way that the problem would perpetuate itself...


It's kind of funny, but I actually did this to myself today. I hosted a MoM -> DD earlier today with one of my toons. We thrashed them, hard. Got all of the badges sans nightmare on MoM without even trying, marched through the MoDD without so much as a hiccup. I barely had to do anything in those leagues. I just got done hosting these two trials again, and on what was arguably a more capable toon. The MoM was a lot harder, took longer, and we didn't get the badges. Funny thing, I had to tank it with a peacebringer. The DD that formed immediately after that got team wiped by the Sentinel at 55% HP, and we failed it. I had to try it again consecutively, where only 5 players stuck around with me. This second run, same requirements with a very underdog team (4 blasters, 5 scrappers, a stalker, 2 brutes, two trollers, corruptor, PB, and a Warshade) managed to get through, but we didn't get all of the Mo badges, and a few players abruptly quit in the middle. I was worried we were going to fail it when people kept dying at Diabolique, but regardless we pulled through. I feel kind of sorry for the guy who started forming a MoM trial immediately after my MoM trial queued up.

It's not that bad

oh shi-!

To my knowledge he only plays on Tri, but I am sure he will speak up here soon. I keep trying to get him and the rest of HUB to come Vir and meet new people, but they are stubborn. I love the people on Tri, they are like this community that lives in the great location. They just don't see how all of the surrounding neighborhoods being Gang Land is a bad thing, so they are not leaving!

Also, I run on Virtue, and I have yet to be told I can't bring anything to any trial I want to run.

Ever wonder if they speak this way in person. I don't mean the rude portion, I mean the use of a large vocabulary.

I take your point that people are what they are, but when someone comes out and says "Yes! I fail more than fifty percent of MoMs!" there's a case to be made that they could do slightly better than that, you dig?

You know, you could lead trials on Triumph.

I think the point is that once a toon runs a trial they arent going to want to run that trial again till the next day.

So this actually creates two problems.

THe player is out of trial use for the next 30-60 minutes depending on trial.

The toon is not out of use till the next day.

There NEEDS to be some revamp of the trial system, because right now.. its not working well.


I Blew a conniption a few weeks ago because I had a new 50 trying to start a baf, and the DD trial forming at the same time kept stealing all the players from my trial that was starting. Especially all the experianced ones.

Running the game the way you want to stops at the point where you interfere with other peoples enjoyment.

Trials NEED to go cross server.

I understood the point: the problem with it is that it doesn't actually translate to a real depletion of characters for trials on Triumph. Heavy trial runners have more alts than actual trials get run. The people will less are also less likely to have highly shifted characters and thus can't contribute to shift depletion. This would only be a real problem if a trial were to tie up the actual players and not just characters for 20 hours.

I could, but I don't. There's a number of reasons why, but its specifically because I don't that I'm also generally less critical of those that do.

Also the only way I could significantly improve on Snow Globe's trial record would be to shoot all the bad players that show up, and clone the rest. And believe, me, to get Preservation Specialist the thought has crossed my mind, although it seems far easier to kill Synapse in his sleep and replace him with an imposter that lowers the badge requirements.

Hmm ... that actually might explain a lot. I was honestly surprised yesterday when I participated in three BAFs (not on Triumph and not with my normal go-to character for participating in trials), only to have two of the three fail.

They literally failed in the final stage; it was as though the melee characters with high potential to draw aggro kept totally forgetting to move 'out of the wad' on their second warning, resulting in league wipes caused by much of the league getting sequestered ... particularly at the worst possible time (like right as one of the AVs went down and we needed to finish off the other one).

Maybe they really just flat out didn't know?

Corrected for accuracy. Yes, because that kicks my need to help people I like to get badges into overdrive.

I go to other servers for day trips... Rarely.

Actually, my natural tendancy is to be wordier the more upset or relaxed I am.

Well said. I don't really have anything to add to your post.

If I had a larger pool of quality players, perhaps.

You know what? YOU could also come to Triumph and lead trials... There is absolutely nothing stopping you. Personally though, I would recommend that you have attitude looked at. Your post typifies elitism far more than my trial requirements do.

I would think that given NCsoft's and Paragon Studio's security that you could have bypassed either group's security to rectify the problem yourself.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Unfortunately, professional ethics prevents me from wizarding myself game rewards.

I'm not a veterinarian, so a tranquilizer gun is perfectly fine.


You know what, nine separate attempts to get that badge all failed, and I haven't killed anyone yet. In the absence of a badge called Anger Manager I think that deserves a badge called "preservation specialist" right there.

Late to the thread, but I found this a really strange expectation. People re-run the same trials all the time. Yes, people like their Empyreans, and sometimes will change characters. But many, many more people will accept whatever trial is being run, because what they really want is more reward tables, and possibly iXP.