Downside to DoubleXP

I think I need to transfer one of my disposed of 50's to Triumph and get in on these "alternative" trials

Times like this I wish I was actually good at communication, because then I would know what you are referring to:

Are you referring to the DD/MoM/UG being harder when compared to other trials, or being harder when compared to multiple hostings of the same trial? I'm not sure if I was clear enough, but I was talking about multiple hostings of the same trial (DD/MoM/UG).

Anyway, it is the standard dilemma between who is at fault with something. It is one of those things where the trials themselves may alter player behavior, and yet player behavior can alter so the trials are no longer an issue. When you make things harder or have different tricks and systems, there will always be preferential treatment from the playerbase. On virtue I see BAF/Lam running almost constantly, and I have run them to monotony. I didn't even think those trials could be hard until after DXP weekend. But, dealing with those new players reminded me of what it was like when the TPN/MoM were first released. On release week, the TPN had a much higher failure rate than the MoM, which is I believe the reason that the 60 thread reward was added to the trial. Before we learned that an all-inside run could work, balancing the Telepathists, HD, Maelstrom, Taunters, and Terminals all at the same time was the most difficult thing I had ever done as a trial host. It took me 20 minutes before the trial just to explain everything while organizing the teams and answering questions. It was idiot prone, since it required everyone to be able to do their jobs without mistake. Now, it is run into the ground.

I get the feeling the same thing is happening with the MoM on virtue. As of late I've been on a few "speed MoMs", which skip explanations and just run right toward the phase with no waiting. I almost always join them late in the forming, but the last few I've been on hasn't broadcast any requirements. Usually the leader will handle some of the key aspects like Aurora and drawing voids, with the assistance of one or two other individuals. The rest of us just spank the AVs. Yeah... spank (roflpun). These MoMs are being done (ROFLPUN!!!) in well under 15 minutes (Core Tier 4 Lore had a few minutes to recharge after using at the beginning of the trial). Something unique about MoM is that there isn't anything other than the objective to do. If you have a team that knows what is going down well enough that they don't need instruction, these things can be conquered really quickly

As for the DD, I get the feeling that a lot of the difficulty in the trial comes from the lack of knowledge about it. Even I'm not sure exactly how everything works with the sentinel, and during the trial I have to still constantly yell instructions to the league who may or may not listen. Once everything gets figured out, levels will become even less of a requirement to stomp the trial. About the only one that can't get much better is the UG.



I'm trying to remedy this. I'm making video guides for the various I-trials with in-video text explaining what to do and how things work. So far the only one I have done is the beta version of the TPN... though I'd really like to record an MO run, but hosting that AND dealing with video editing at the same time is maddening.

I assume that that entire post comes with the caveat "which is specifically true on Triumph." On Virtue every trial, including UG, is run dozens of times every single day. There is no difficulty at all in filling any trial at any time, the exception being trying to start a large trial after another large trial just started at off hours. I find it hard to understand how players on Virtue could be so different from players on Triumph, apart from being more numerous.

I'm well aware of different server cultures. Virtue hardly runs TFs at all compared to Protector, per capita. What I was getting at is that if Triumph's culture is to spurn certain trials it's not because the players there are incapable of enjoying them. Rather it is the more correctable issue of the preferences of those who run them. Why don't I play on Triumph myself and change that? Because the whole reason I switched to Virtue in the first place was that I like being able to get teams outside of North American prime time. If that's what you're after, it's Virtue, Freedom ou peut-être Vigilance tant qu'il en reste des joueurs là, au moins.

As condescending as ever.

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe I'm referring to people's desire to do specific trials. If you want people to do multiple runs of the same trial you need the following: Speed. Underground fails miserably at this. MoM is in the middle. DD actually succeeds at this. Ease. Underground fails miserably at this. MoM fails miserably at this. DD without enough level shifts to compensate for the trial's level mechanics fails at this. Rewards enough to compensate for failure rate. Underground fails miserably at this on some servers. MoM fails miserably at this on some servers. DD without enough level shifts to compensate for the trial's level mechanics fails at this. Specifically, the trial is geared towards characters with more level shifts, but not enough to do with those rewards at that point. Basically what people in this thread are telling you is that you are drawing the wrong conclusion from what you are seeing. At the most basic level you are talking about a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. I really don't care that you think the most crucial matter is why players aren't running specific trials more than once (if that) a day. The core problem is that some trials are more liked than others. Until you discover why some trials are more popular you are going to continue to flail about trying to find answers that will not work.

This entire post is discussing what I call the "really enjoy the trials" aspect of running multiple trials. This doesn't truly change the limit of the playerbase as much as it may provide an additional factor which I believe I may have already mentioned. While this is all well and good, this doesn't change people still running the trial once a day, so it must not be hated that much. Though the difficulty and/or recruit length increases with each successive MoM and DD trial, I still see 2-3 of each of them being run in a single day on Virtue. The tendency to run the easy trials repeatedly reinforces the idea that players are attempting to go for maximized rewards more than they are attempting to entertain themselves or be charitable toward other players. The contrast would be that players continually run the Lam/BAF because they actually enjoy those trials, so much so that they are willing to run them multiple times a day every day while not becoming bored with them.

BTW, people aren't telling me that I am mistaken in explaining this phenomena. They are telling me that this phenomena doesn't exist. There is a big difference, since postulating alternate explanations for a phenomena requires the acceptance of such a phenomena as a premise. As long as the phenomena happens, I'm not really too concerned about the specifics as to what is leading toward a limited player pool. If it is because the community has the resources but lacks the will, this still means that the players are a limited commodity regarding forming those trials.

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe This is the core question that you, Blood Red Arachnid, are avoiding.

This doesn't make sense. One of the benefits toward running the trials with less stringent requirements is to show that they aren't as hard as people portray them to be. By doing so, it instructs players how to run the trials, lets players run them more often, and also makes them more enjoyable as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe You can't make a first impression twice. That is what is happening. Underground and MoM left a BAD impression. Underground with its high failure rate and length. MoM with its high failure rate, annoying AVs, and heavy-handed PSI damage. UG, MoM, and DD are extremely binary in nature. Either you have the requirements met before hand or you have the possibility of a high failure rate I'll repeat myself: I have yet to personally be on a TPN that has failed (though I've had to resort to designated terminal clickers). However, the 60 thread reward was added to beta on October 28, 2011, while the trial was released early December.

I have yet to be on a TPN that has failed *recently*. It is hard to pick out a failure in the past two months or so, and the TPN trial is now run about as often as Keyes, which are done so many times I can't keep count throughout the day. However... during the first two weeks or so the TPN on virtue was hell. The failure rate was through the roof, nobody had any idea what they were doing or how to go about doing it, and the entire league was still dealing with that whole "listening to instructions" problem that will occasionally plague other trials. But things have gotten a lot better through time, first impressions be damned.

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe No amount of "getting things figured out" will compare with the disparity of level shifts in the trial. The EU players tried and got curb stomped multiple times during beta for bringing less than +1 (and apparently some +1 trials too).

This I am not so sure of. The tricks that the Sentinel has aren't too damning, especially if you get a team that knows and cooperates to remedy the problems. The biggest obstical toward fighting the sentinel is his heal. Outside of that, the sentinel has very little to give me the notion that it is anything but a gigantic wall of HP that needs to be whittled away. I already know how teams can improve, too: most leaders don't have memorized all of the effects that the Sentinel gets from the three heroes it absorbs. It is very possible to tailor the sentinel to being a lot weaker than it ends up on MO runs (25% resistances + regen boost + self heal + AoE Hold), and likewise each of his powers has several weaknesses to them that currently are just DPSed through. For instance, his AoE Pulse damage is targeted around a specific player, so in theory if you have one tank that holds aggro you can pull a similar tactic to air-taunting with the WWs in the UG. I have yet to see a team try this, though, so it remains in theory only.

As far as any particular server goes with tactics, something Arcana said about replacing all of the players with clones reminded me of a video I saw once. It is 16 minutes long, but the gist of it is that population size is directly proportional to innovation via the exchange of materials and ideas and increasing specificity of individual components in the network. A particularly interesting example is from about 12:30 on when he explains how it is Tasmania encountered negative growth when cut off from the mainland. When we apply this to the servers in the game, we see that a smaller server is at a disadvantage over a bigger server based on the very fact that one server is smaller than another. It is not that any individual is smarter, or that any individual is more skilled, but that there lacks a certain substrate for experience to bud off from, and the resources for ideas to be put to the test. You mentioned earlier how you've been on 18 MoMs. I've been on far more than that. Hell, I think I've personally hosted more than 18 MoMs. The people on more populated servers, they too have been on a lot more MoMs than on servers that are scarce. The knowledge, the practice, the innovations between leaders, all of that gives the populated server an incredible advantage. The differences between them extend far beyond the trials, and this can make a community that is anemic when compared to others, not only in population but in skill as a whole. Due to their specifics, certain trials take longer to get used to than others. If you want to apply that outdated theory of unilinear social evolution to it, then a certain minimum number of trials needs to be run in order to foster enough comfort with the trials in order to create an environment in which someone is willing to go out of their comfort zone.

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe It doesn't matter. Most people: Won't bother watching video guides. Won't bother reading any of the numerous guides available for each trial. Won't CARE if you think that the trial is the greatest work of art since the concept of art began. I'm not guessing this, I know. Simply put, you aren't going to change people's opinion of the trials. The trials that players don't like will not be run.

My biggest influence over the server is when I actually host the trials, and I am getting the feeling that I am having a positive effect in that matter. The videos are mostly a side-project that deals with the issue of players not knowing what things like "voids" look like or how to tell when you're in the same realm as Aurora. A picture is worth a thousand words, and it conveys them in mere moments.

It is well done in the sense that the graphic is crisp and pretty. It is only so-so in that it doesn't include things like having to rush to the end of the maps and where telepathists show up. It isn't done well in the sense that I have to turn my head 50 degrees to read the logos and I have to continually backtrack to 2a and 3-outside to know what is going on. This may just be a limit of the graphic, since including everything on the map including different strategies that different leaders use makes it quite cluttered. You can do it with adding more images, but after enough images it is easier to just make a video.

The only trial I do not run on a regular basis is UG...why?? Because I find it boring and too long. I have no problem finding/creating leagues to run any trial though - even UG if I am bored.

I have ventured to the less populated servers on some of my alts (yay for way too many free server transfers) and have found that usually the population is there, but sadly the willingness to listen/follow directions is not. Great example of this:
I have not failed a BAF on Freedom/Exalted in months... and the one I did fail back in November 2011 was an ill fated attempt at a MoBAF. I went to a smaller server (not naming names here) and of the 4 BAFs I did in 2 days...half failed. BAF!@ Seriously!?!?! I thought for sure the one would be a success as we had a full league of 24 with only 3 non shifted players....but alas we failed. We failed at the escapees section because no one listened and was running around doing their own things. I give very simple directions for BAFs: Team 1 North and Teams 2 & 3 South: CHOKES. Do not sit at a door. So after the first escape I look on the map...people are scattered to every point on the map... seriously?? So I yelled repeatedly: Everyone gather at the Choke points! When we hit 10 prisoners.. I jumped to South side and yelled Team 2/3 gather on me... they still didn't comprehend that and about 1 minute later we failed.

After that - I transferred my toon back to Freedom as it was clear that if people can't listen to simple directions on a BAF - there was no way I was attempting another trial.

So yeah it irks me a little bit when I see people say this trial or that trial is too gimmicky/difficult etc... because no it truly is not. If you can follow simple instructions all of these trials are not difficult. and back to the ORIGINAL point of this thread - I see/saw no issues with the competency of players after double xp weekend. This game is not hard to figure out even if you blazed through the first 50 levels.

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Originally Posted by Paladiamors I love you, I Burnt the Toast!

Enjoyability often takes a secondary position to sheer ability to complete.

I have about twenty level 50's, fifteen of which are seriously chasing Incarnate rewards. I tend to stick to BAF, LAM, TPN every now and then and my personal favorite, UG. UG is an extremely profitable trial, even if it fails.

Why am I not running more MoM/DD etc? Because many of the people I am working toward +2 and +3 are not yet level-shifted enough to do well on those trials. [And I hate MoM especially, but that's a whole 'nother thread]. If you're +0 or +1, well I will speak for myself - If I am +0 or +1, I am sticking to BAF and LAM for a long time. Once I'm at least +1 I move up to UG.

I think the DD trial is a hoot. I just don't have that many +3s yet, trying to get there but its a lot of work, with the stable of alts I have.

So it shouldn't be "OMG BAF AND LAM ONLY!" Why are people running these? Is it because they loathe all new trial content? NO. Because they need threads and salvage for their alts in order to move up the food chain.