A discussion: iTrials and level shifts

The purpose of this thread is to explore, analyze, discuss and have a civil debate on our perception of level shifts in iTrials.

As per general forum rules, please refrain from attacking a person.

I'll go first...

The other night I participated in a discussion in Jello Shooters about the utility of level shifts in iTrials. I stated that I felt some irritation when I see players bring flat 50s (non-level shifted toons) on BAF and Lambda.

Further, I feel it is very disrespectful to the league when a player brings a toon with less than 2 level shifts to any of the more advanced iTrials (such as Minds of Mayhem and Dilemma Diabolique).

Here are my reasons...

First: Accessibility
It is well within the players ability to unlock and acquire the first level shift from completing Mender Ramiel's arc and playing non-incarnate content. This is how the first generation of toons acquired their first level shift. Once Astral Merits became available: it is possible to have a toon with a surplus of Astals purchase Incarnate Shard email vouchers (39 astral to shard vouchers, plus 1 shard from the alpha unlock in Ramiel's arc, plus one Notice of the Well from the WST) to send to another toon to craft up to a tier 3 in alpha.

Second: Contribution
The contribution of a flat 50 is noticeably less than that of a 50+2 or 50+3. The latter two tiers of incarnate powers provide pets (Lore) for additional damage (and buffs/debuffs) and AoE buffs (Destiny) which increase survivability, etc. Further, the intermediate incarnate powers (Interface and Judgement) provide debuffs and additional damage. A flat 50 will always be facing enemies that are at least +4 in combat level (54s), and in the case of some of the later trials, enemies and AVs that are 54 with up to 3 additional level shifts. This places the flat 50 at a 4 to 7 combat level disadvantage. While a purely buffing toon may still provide benefit to a team (Force fields, Clear Mind, Forge, Heal Other and the like), all other types of toons are not so lucky. Any power that is directed toward the enemy will be substantially less effective due to the difference in combat level; the greater the difference, the less effective the power will be. Powers will miss more often, less damage will be delivered, taunts will last a shorter amount of time, debuffs will be less effective, etc.

Third: Liabilities
The first measureable impact of a non-level shifted toon is increasing the spawn size (in addition to the increased number of Lt and Boss level enemies) while either not providing any of the benefits or substantially lesser benefits that a level shifted toon can bring. It is entirely possible for a non-level shifted toon to be a distinct liability (MoM, DD, are prime examples) where number of league deaths plays a definitive role in determining the success of the iTrial. As previously mentioned, a flat 50 will always be facing enemies that are at least +4 and sometimes +7. Powers from the enemy directed at the flat 50 will be magnified in accuracy, damage dealt, duration and effectiveness. A flat 50 can also be a significant drain on league resources: the league will have to divert attention away from toons that contribute more to support a toon that cannot support themselves. For example, Revive and Heal type powers may need to be used on flat 50s that die often and won't be available for emergency situations when the RNG is unkind to the lead taunter and he/she falls in battle.

Conclusion
All players should strive to bring a toon that is incarnate level appropriate to the selected task and be considerate to the leader and league members; the success of the iTrial may be related directly to the choice you make on the character selection screen. Don't "bring a knife to a gunfight"... and don't bring a flat 50 to a Dilemma Diabolique.

I can't really agree that flat 50s shouldn't be allowed to join Lambda/BAF/Keyes. At +4, those aren't that much more difficult than some of the other content in the game (usually at max difficulty level, but still). By asking people to get their alpha shift first, you're asking them to sit out their new incarnate-to-be until they can scrape together the shards (or waste astrals converting them) to even begin to participate. Plus, those trials are still regularly ran by people who are experienced, and most will already have shifts themselves. Even a league of flat 50s can win, assuming they don't have people (un)intentionally griefing them through questionable actions.

That said, I agree that the newer trials--specifically DD and MoM--have significant penalties for deaths, and at -7 it's simply too much for most flat 50's to reasonably contribute on. Buff bots are the only ones unaffected by depreciating effects of powers from the level gap, and even they feel the harder hits of the enemies. And even then, their use in buffing is diminished when you consider all the destiny buffs flying around.

I'll toss my two cents in here.

Incarnate content is gated way to long for people with limited play time. I still don't have but three 50's that have any incarnate progress. They have pretty much just the basics with shards since that is the time I had to step away from the game.

With the amount of playtime that I have currently available and judging by my current progress, it is going to be sometime around 2020 when I get even one of them to any decent place with respect to progress. I just don't have time.

If there needs to be a limiter with respect to what a person can bring to a trial or TF, Paragon Studios should put the barrier in the way and say; "Stop right there. You can't do this because you cannot make a significant contribution." However, this has not happened and likely won't happen. Steamrolling content is well and good. I love it. I enjoy it. It's not a lot of fun to start something and fail due to lack of DPS, buffage, etc. BTDT.

This is one of the issues that I foresaw when they showed the massive tree that is the incarnate path. It's cool. It's meaningful (to some extent). It gives tons of progression for 50's.

Unfortunately, it is also as slow as a snail to progress when you don't have time to play hard core. It would be nice to have an offline "build up" mode to move the bar a bit faster when you haven't been able to play as much with increased drop rates to match.

So, the new stuff has lured another $15 out of my pocket, but I can't join in to the new trials since I have nothing to "help" out with. *shrugs*

Perhaps it is disrespectful to join in with a "light weight", but then if no one is doing to older content how would I ever get my 50 to be incarnate in the first place?

Just to put this in perspective, I ground out several 30 minute solo sessions (around 4 hours total) this last weekend to get two shards. Two freaking shards. I need about another 30 to finish my top tier Alpha slot. On one toon.

I ran the new DA intro mission arc last week to get four threads to finish my second tier two judgement power. Again, it took me about three hours to get the four threads. Absolutely freaking nuts for a drop rate that needs so many to do anything useful with.

My progress on the Lore and Interface XP is just as dismal. I understand the gating and why it is done, but all Paragon is doing is annoying the **** out of the folks who don't have time to sit down and spend 6 or 8 hours at a stretch playing. I've been there. You know I have. I used to sit for 12 hour stretches doing task forces and trials, for both days every weekend and 4 to 6 hours every night after work. I can do it, but I just don't have time. Real life demands some attention. So, I am punished for that lack of time. To be honest, the whole system doesn't engender me to plunk down another $15 for next month. My stable of 50's just sit there looking forelone knowing that they won't ever make it to be incarnates since I can't even get one to the current level.

So the way it currently stands, I know I will still be in the same boat next year sitting out in my little corner of Northeast Talos wondering at all of the water around me but knowing I can't drink any of it.

I'm not sure I can put in too much on the newer trials, since I kinda gave up keeping up with them after my first attempt at the Underground Trial-it's waaaay too long to be fun for me. I have to agree with Ura when it comes to the sheer amount of time and effort it takes to get level shifts on a toon, though. It's a little bit ridiculous. Yeah, we have to solo path now, and that's great, but it's still slower than frozen molasses to get anywhere on it unless you're popping Windfall every hour on the hour (and even then it's not that fast). I will say I don't mind if people bring flat 50s to the Lambda, BAF, or Keyes trials - it happened a lot when those trials first came out and we still succeeded.

What concerns me is that I've seen in different global channels people being a little rude about the level shifts vs. flat 50 characters. Does it really take so much extra time to say "Sorry, but without level shifts, all the enemies will be +4-+7 to your toon, and you're going to be a liability to the success of the trial"? I understand we're all in a hurry to spend as much of our ingame time gaming as possible, but there's no need to be hurtful over it. Take the time to explain and people will probably be more or less okay with it - after all, the Apex and Tin Mage Mk II require you to have the Alpha unlocked (and preferably slotted) or you're at a severe disadvantage, so people do understand the mechanic.

I've not seen anyone being rude or mean about it, perhaps that's happening earlier in the day or later at night. I have seen people take things personally that were neither intended to be personal nor directed at the people taken offense, and I have seen some spirited exchanges. But I haven't seen any deliberate rudeness about it.

I have seen attempts to explain the need for level shifts on higher level trials ignored or dismissed out of hand, however.

Read my stories!

I understand Ura Hero's position.

There are many people who simply do not have the time or the resources to acquire level shifts quickly across multiple toons. I can understand that the options for toon selection would be limited. In that case I'd highly recommend working on one toon at a time until it has all three level shifts. While it limits the selection, it guarantees that you'll have at least one toon with the level shifts necessary to contribute on all trials.

My biggest gripe with flat 50s are those players that do have the time and resources to have multiple level shifted toons, actually have multiple level shifted toons, and still choose to bring a flat 50 on advanced iTrials.

I don't think unlevelshifted characters should be able to do trials like MoM or DD. No matter what you are, no matter how good you are, no matter how expensive your build is, a lvl 50 is not going to be able to do /anything/ to a +6 or +7 AV. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I would support a dev action to hard lockout people from participating without sufficient level shifts for this reason. If a player isn't within 4-5 levels of the max level of the highest level shifted enemy on a trial, then there are plenty of other things they could be doing until they reach such a level.

This would mean:
+0 or +1 minimum for UG.
+1 or +2 minimum for MoM/TPN.
+2 or +3 minimum for DD.

As for Lam/BAF/Keyes that the OP mentioned, these are lvl 54 trials. Players are fully capable of fighting +4 enemies. Yes, it's not going to be as much of a steamroll as having a full league of +3s, but those trials are so easy already that it really doesn't matter. It's just when enemy exceeds +4 to your current level that the purple patch takes a dump all over your ability to do anything significant to said enemy.

If they continue increasing the enemy levels in future trials without hard locking out toons who don't have a level shift sufficient enough to be able to do anything to the enemies within the trial, then they should probably start looking into adjusting the purple patch so that the low-non level shifted characters can actually do something to the enemies in the trials that they are allowed to participate in.

Hi. Pretty sure none of you know me, but I felt like giving some insight and possibly some advice.

The most precious resource any gamer has is time. We can't accumulate it. When it's gone, hey, it's gone. If you're a trial leader, the needs of the league must be taken into consideration.

Part of the reason UGT is so lengthy is the time it takes some leagues with unshifted toons to defeat the many mobs along the way to the Avatar. The time difference between a league of mostly shifted toons and a league with more than 4 or 5 unshifted can differ by as much as 20 minutes. I've led the trial on my server countless times, so I think I have a good grasp of what goes on. Fortunately in UGT, Desdemona and her pets are really what win or lose this fight. You keep her unconfused, and you will likely win. If whoever has Desdemona does not lead Des in to fight, you're going to have an incredibly long fight. I would say Des does 80-90% of the damage to the Avatar. (but, I could be wrong)

Even more important than level shifts is player experience. I would rather have someone who has done several MoM trials successfully (on an alt) bring their unshifted scrapper than a +3 scrapper who's never done the trial.

Additionally, if you can solicit agreements that those who are unshifted continue to do the same trials while you bring your lowbies, it becomes far easier to stomach someone bringing the "lowbie 50". Because, eventually, those people will get their +3.

If you are going for an MoTrial, I don't think anyone can really hold a grudge for asking for level shifted toons. But, if it's just a regular trial, it is up to each leader, and player to weigh the percieved chances of success. If you stay on a team that looks weak, if it fails, it's just as much your fault as the folks who weren't shifted. You had a chance to voice your reservations before the queue. (most of the time, anyway)

As mentioned before, a lot of players don't have the time that an unemployed fellow like me might have. They play a few hours a week - and those hours are probably off-peak, so they don't get to take their 50's to the msr and get 4 or 5 shards every Friday and Sunday. (or whenever your fine server may have them) They can't run a Lambda, MoM, DD, Keyes, UGT, TPN and BAF all in the same session. They may not have the cash to get Super Packs with their zillions of windfall temp powers that increase shard drops. Heck, I suspect that half the playerbase still doesn't even know what a superpack is, or that you can't get to Dark Astoria through Talos anymore. The idea of telling a casual gamer that they can't come along on the one 45 minute play session they have is kind of unsavory.

Yet, what the other players? The ones that have put the time in - in my case, none of my 50's touch foot in a trial until they're +1. This is not because it's not allowed by my fellow players, but because I want to be as capable as I can be. Is it fair for me to expect others to think and feel and act the same way I do? If I'm not paying their sub, I'd say no.

Yet, as a leader, I have other players to consider. Suppose two players have only a 45 minute window to play in? One is shifted from converting a vast amount of notices into threads, when the eden trial was the weekly. (and don't we all know that trial can be done in 15 minutes? ) The other is just doing what they can when they can. Is it fair for the unshifted to put their wants/needs for incarnate salvage and iXP against the other player who also only has a limited time?

I think if you ask 100 different people, you'll get 100 different responses.

For me, the only true objection I have is to those players who, when they get +3, stop bringing that toon out and start bringing their unshifted toons again, but are unwilling to switch.


However, the idea of placing a progression throttle for those that can't log in isn't horrible. They have patrol xp, why not patrol iXP?

Just my opinions, I could be wrong.

Ura Hero, I understand your position and I wish you could play more, but I disagree with you.

The iXP requirement to unlock each slot is less than the requirement to get from level 49 to level 50.

Let me tell you a story about my experiences and ideas.

I got my Empath slotted up to the top level shift through lots of trials. At one point she was a flat 50 with the unlocked slot but no work done on it. As it was said earlier - a support toon is a little more able to contribute to the team than say a flat 50 blaster. I was able to heal, fort, RAx2 and when needed rez people, because those powers didn't need a level shift. I mashed a lot of buttons. Once River was done, I was able to work on another 2 toons, my rad/dark and my dark/dark defender, as even though they weren't fully slotted up, they still brought some debuff (although not massive) to the party. I collected threads on my rad/dark as she was the one I brought to the party most often.

I wanted to work on my tank so I could help more, and provide more characters I could change out, but I did not want to bring a (for all intents and purposes) useless toon and have them carry me. With I22, I was able to start working on decking my tank out without worrying about it. I admit, it was slow going when I started. REALLY slow. Then Major T told me the way to do it through Oro - get the threads changed over, then they get mailed to yourself, pick them on the toon you want, and you can get to tier 3 on your alpha without even DOING a trial.

I agree that you have to start somewhere, and everyone was flat level 50 once. I don't mind if you bring a flat 50 to the party (ideally a support toon because they're always useful), but not ALL the time for ALL your characters. Pick one, get them levelled up, then start hoarding the threads on that toon so you can get another toon to tier 3 Alpha.

It goes *really* fast once you do that. If I decide to take my scrapper through the incarnate trials, that's how I will do it (once that darn tank is completed!).

I'm going to bring up another point, and this is just my opinion, but don't bring a theme toon where you've picked the powers based on a concept. Don't bring a deliberately gimped character. Don't bring a stone tank with no tier 9 power. Don't bring an empath with no AB. Don't bring a controller with no pets (unless it's a Mind troller). Some of the trials are hard(ish) and require the best of you and your team to complete, and that means your best build as well. Again, that's my opinion. I'd rather a flat 50 be on the team that knows how to use their powers, than someone playing a concept toon that skipped important powers.

I'm thinking I should hold my tongue on this issue. Other people have said the points I would have better than I can.

I'm just going to say that the attitude of "You need this!" is really turning me off from I-Trials. Now, I'll agree with T that the Diabolique Trial needs high-end Incarnates... I'm not sure if everybody HAS to be +3, but I will join in with the doubt that flat 50s can complete it. I would like to see what a large number of force multipliers can do at Flat and +1, but I wouldn't hold out much hope for survival in any case.

But I wouldn't so much say the same about the rest of the trials. These are supposed to be a way for players to gather together and coordinate their efforts, utilizing their skills in something that's more than a Hamidon Raid.

Okay, my opinions on the sick little "Raid Your Brains Out" culture that's sprung up since the inception of BAF/Lambda have been made abundantly clear, multiple times prior to this.

That being said.

Getting ticked at someone for bringing a flat 50 to a BAF/Lambda?
Uh, WHAT?

That's what those two trials are FOR.

Even Keyes, as it stands now, doesn't really require a level shift.

As for the rest? Yeah, I can see not wanting to go into a DoD with straight 50's.
Or an Underground.
I also wouldn't want to have to run a MoM without sufficient anti-mez.
The TPN is "iffy", but the TPN is a mess of a trial anyhow.

A lot of it falls to having an active raid leader who pays attention to league balance.
I took an unshifted new Blaster on TPN with an excellent leader who knew what he was doing and was so heavily buffed that I had no problem hitting and killing stuff. So I contributed.

And while I'll alt if asked, I usually bring the toon I feel like playing on.

I'm so completely sick of raids that I only do them once in a blue moon. I don't give a damn HOW lucrative they are. So if whatever I'm bringing, when the mood strikes, isn't good enough and I'm not inclined to alt? Especially if it's someone talking out their [PANCAKE] about the new iteration of "We gotsta haz a h3@l0r!"

Frak that noise.

I'll go do something else.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

The whole point of trials is to encourage people to team and get to know a lot of other players, to encourage us to continue playing the game because we know a lot of other people and can find teams when we want to. By telling people they can't bring a straight 50 to a BAF or Lambda you are alienating a lot of players, thus completely circumventing the entire point of trials.

If the league in a BAF or Lambda won't have the right stuff to succeed, it's reasonable for the team leader to ask a couple of people to alt to a character that will help out more: for example, we ran a BAF tonight and I was on a stalker, but we were melee-heavy, so I alted to a Fire/Dark corruptor for better AT balance.

Having a +3 level shift is not a requirement for those two trials, not unless you're going for a specific badge. Vanilla runs on these trials are intended to be run by level 50 and 50+1 characters. A level shift is even less important when the player involved has already run these trials a zillion times and knows exactly what to do.

Keyes these days doesn't really require a level shift; knowing how to navigate its gimmicks is much more important than raw power. TPN doesn't require a +3 either, but being +1 or +2 is definitely a help.

However, I have no problem with people being picky and wanting level shifts for DD, or UG, or MoM, or if you're going for badges on any trial.

The whole reason people run these trials is to get iXP and salvage to get the level shifts. If you exclude people who don't already have level shifts, they won't be able to get those level shifts in any reasonable amount of time. Condemning non-elite players to the darkness of DA or converting shards or astrals to threads is selfish, and harmful to the long-term survival of the game.

Here's the scaling iTrial AVs use.

Anyway, I agree that turning away flat 50s from BAF/Lam isn't necessary. Now that everyone pretty much knows how to do those they're super easy, as long as EVERYONE isn't a flat 50. I wish the devs had put in minimum requirements for the rest from the beginning, then most people wouldn't have an issue with it. I see it the same way I see that I can't join a LRSF until I'm 45. If they removed that requirement it still wouldn't be as bad because on a team of 8 the leader can look over everyone's powersets and balance accordingly. You can't expect the leader of a league of 24 to do that.

Hey Zaloopa, get someone to let those poor guys outta that paper already! Sheesh, can't you see they're freaking out?