A discussion: iTrials and level shifts

Working together is great. I've seen trials that have been superawesomefantastic because of the good levels of teamwork. Everyone is helping everyone else, there's synergy, and there's cohesion. Those teams are awesome.

When there are too many non-level shifted toons on a trial, I (and other buffers) end up having to take single target buffs, most specifically AB and fort away from level shifted toons and put them on the flat 50s to help them can stay up. There are times when the main tank(s) has faceplanted because I wasn't able to heal him fast enough because my power hadn't recharged from keeping the flat 50 up.

It's not fair to the rest of the team to potentially let the tank go down and possibly cause a team wipe because a non level shifted toon is taking the bulk of my attention and buffs.

Think of it as a giant tug of war. Sure, that 98 lb weakling on the team is helping, but everyone else on the team is getting more rope burn on their hands than necessary because they have to pull harder to make up for the lack of strength. A better scenario would be the 98 lb weakling realizesthis, and allows his 200 lb weight lifting cousin to substitute in on the team. The war goes more smoothly and there's less rope burn.

You know, I recognize you guys are aggravated because I disagreed with you that you need only level-shifted characters on the TPN. In fact, TPN is the only one I'm willing to offer up contention on.

In the early days of TPN, when nobody noticed that Maelstrom was level 54+(whatever), I had seen PLENTY of mixed up teams. Nobody was making any sorts of demands that you "had" to have a level shift. We had teams designated to specific roles, teams with jobs to do that they did WELL, regardless of level shift. Hell, the biggest concern then was that you didn't Judgement the civilians.

Then about a month or so later, when the grind was setting in, I started seeing the demand pop up once or twice. Now we're at this point.

I suppose I could step up and try to lead a few Trials. I just have bad experiences with trying to cobble stuff together, so I'm a little antsy about it. The only Trial I've tried to lead thus far has been an Underground Trial that failed.

For those of you who joined me on that one, I appreciate your help on that first, and thus far only go. We made it all the way to Hamidon, which was actually better than I was expecting at the time. Not enough Clarion at the end of it, though, so when we just let Desdemona get curbstomped, things got a little, well, IMPOSSIBLE.

Then there's the behavior I see when other people are leading PUG Trials... And the leader explicitly says one thing, only to have one of the experienced players go off on a speed grind strategy anyway. Oh, I'm looking forward to having to deal with that...

Anyway...

As for your angry, insulting comments, I'm going to try to let that roll off my back. I understand that I have insulted you with my choice of words, and I apologize. I am apparently kicking in the passive aggressive attitude into overdrive, and there's no call for it.

Now, here's why I'm justifying my behavior...

I don't grind the trials out. I don't run them every night, multiple times a night. I have all sorts of characters that I'm working on, trying to find their niches and strategies. I'm trying to level them up, trying to improve their builds, trying to improve my capabilities as a player (so you can imagine how mad I must be when you're still talking like you're "babysitting" me; especially when we almost never play together anymore, I've had to learn plenty enough on my own, without your "guidance"). I'm trying to improve my availability to be able to support you all for these events, regardless of what you would need me to switch to.

It sounds like some of you guys are really resentful at being "forced" to bring the same guys because nobody else will step up...

So why do you continue to enable the attitude? If it's such a problem for you, bring what you want to bring, or take a break from the grind. Don't bend over backwards for them, and then complain about it.

The server won't grind to a halt because some of the normal people are playing other characters. Other people will see a need that has to be filled, and will step in--or it just won't happen. Either way, you no longer have a reason to complain.

I know, right?

Whenever I see a group of people putting themselves out there, putting aside what they want to do because someone else wants to do it instead, driving themselves nuts trying to make things work out for everyone....

...I always point to that group and say "See there... THAT'S the problem."

Read my stories!

I've been wanting to chime in on this thread for a while. Both sides do have their points and I thought I'd add my perspective.

1) I try to be as inclusive as I can when leading iTrials. We are a smaller population here but we have plenty of capable and willing leadership for all game content. I have a great deal of respect for all who try to lead the iTrials, organize events, or lead task forces. It's often a thankless job that results in criticism when things don't go well.

2) I am far more tolerant of lesser shifted/tiered alts running iTrials with players I'm not familiar with (or those that run all the time carrying the load). I say "not familiar with" because I automatically assume they are more limited in their ability to participate in iTrials.

3) Being inclusive is more difficult with the harder iTrials. It is hard for me to judge where that minimum bar is for a viable league on a DD, TPN or a MoM. No one has called me on it, but I have led iTrials that failed because I was inclusive of lower or unshifted alts. For those runs I still feel guilty for letting the league down. For myself I'm almost always going to be inclusive even at the risk of reducing our margin of error.

I want to point out that I have led iTrials that have succeeded only because the league was well shifted also. Of particular note were Underground Trials when it was newer. Things went awry against the War Walkers on a couple occasions and against the Avatar in others. As time ran out, it was only because the league had the firepower to completely reverse the tide that such runs did not fail.

4) I am admittedly fortunate when leading though. People that I play with bring the +3s without being asked and they tend to listen to my instructions; for that I'm very grateful. It's a luxury. When it comes to mainly Lambda and to a lesser degree BAF I tell everyone to bring whatever they want. We can carry a league if I and a couple others are on a +3 with Tier 4 Lore, (Flat 50s are always welcome). BAF and Keyes are a bit trickier imo, but flat 50s are okay assuming we have the firepower/balance to get it done which may or may not be easy to judge.

5) Although there is the new DA to level in, I'm less of the mind that people should level there before joining in the harder iTrials. They should be able to do so through the easier iTrials. If they are limited on time/access, then by all means join in even the harder iTrials. We'll do our best to bring enough firepower to succeed but it will harder with a greater risk of failure.

6) "Blame Impyre" is there for two purposes. I don't like finger pointing and it helps people relax/have more fun if they know they won't be blamed. It's a bit of a joke, but I started using it on MSTF runs because it made some laugh and reduced stress for others.

TL, DR: everyone just needs to respect the other side's views and concerns. Bring stronger alts to the harder iTrials if available. I can't speak for other leads, but with me DON'T exclude yourself from the harder iTrials if you're limited by time or opportunity.

After some conversations I had last night and seeing some of the commentary here, I think I should clarify why I've been so disparaging of grinding out the Trials.

I don't like grinding. I don't like the mentality it puts players in. Myself included. You get to grinding something out, you start to feel like it's something everybody should be able to do, all the time, regardless of build, team composition or whatever...

Except that's not the truth. Thought still needs to go into your team design, no matter how familiar you are with the material you're engaging in.

But when you're in the "Grinding Groove" or whatever you want to call it, you usually don't think about it that way. When things go wrong, you usually start going into the rant, looking for the "weak link" that is slowing you down or messing things up. The conversations that result, well... Well, look at this thread for a few examples.

Last time I saw behavior like this, we had players who were grinding out the late-game content. Sometimes they would grind out earlier content. I would tag along if I could, especially if I was trying to level up a character and it was in the range.

Then the usual leader of those TFs, Kidengineer, started sending me "pointers" and direction when I was teamed with his crew. It was getting to a point where he was obsessed with only the maximums of efficiency, that if we weren't all on the most optimized builds, we may as well sit aside and soak up experience points, because, apparently, we were only slowing him and his optimized crew down. It started feeling like he just needed the extra bodies to get started on the Task Force.

Being treated like that made me feel sick. Watching a player turn into that sort of person, after initially enjoying his cleverness and intelligence, was just as disheartening.

Then I find myself missing these players. I miss how fun or funny or friendly they were. Now they just seem to be the sorts of players obsessed with the reward at the end of the task, because they say so little that has to do with anything else.

I agree with you, grinding has a negative connotation.

However, I want to clearly understand why you chose to join the term to the iTrials. Is it because you associate grinding with the desire of the leaders and potentially many of the participants (myself included) to complete the trial with a minimum of difficulty and time? Is it because they are usually played through in a specific sequence, just about nightly?

Please explain.

I don't have a problem with calling it grinding. It IS grinding. I don't even know how many trials you have to do to get one character to tier three on everything, but you have to do about twice that many to get one character to tier four on everything... and then you start over on the next character... and the next... You have to do the same thing over and over and over again to gain reward. That's grinding.


And the problem with grinding is that it stops being fun. The days are long done when I look at a BAF map and say, “Oh, hey... this is cooool!” or even get excited because we got Synchronized again on a Lambda. You do the exact same content for the 10th, 50th, or 100th time... you're not doing it for fun. You are doing it for that shiny at the end.


Add in the complication that you're trying to manage not just 8 people, but potentially 24 people... add in the complication that just one person can – in many cases – cause the efforts of the other 23 to fail and, yes... there is a very real reason to develop a fast, simple, and efficient strategy.


If there are still people out there doing Lambdas or BAFs because they're fun... I salute you... I really do.


But honestly... at this point, most of us are doing trials because we need that component, we need that empyrean, we need that last thread.... not because we're “enjoying the content” the 100th or 300th time we've seen it.


You say we're racing through them as fast as possible to get to the shiny at the end.... well.. yeah. We are. And yes, there is crankiness when something messes that up. Because it's not just causing a problem for one person... it's causing a problem for as many as 23 people. And when you're hoping that tonight you'll finally get that very rare... something slowing things down or even causing a fail... Yes, it's frustrating. And we can see right here in this thread what happens when people get frustrated.

So... I hate grinding. But I like having incarnates. So.. I grind iTrials. I hate crafting. But I love having toons with IOs. So I do crafting. I hate PvP. But I love badges, and I love having shivens and nukes. So I go into PvP zones for badges, shivens, and nukes. And in each of those cases... believe me, I find the fastest and most efficient way to do that thing I hate so that it can be done with it faster.

Read my stories!

I understand what you're talking about: the discovery and exploratory portion of the iTrial experience has concluded, all that's left to do is to do it.

There isn't need for too much discussion of strategy, there is only the need to define who's doing what and when. There is only chatter when things go wrong. The iTrials, due to being timed, don't allow for much idle chatter as there isn't much idle time. So the chatter must take place before or after the trial, rarely during.

However, did you notice that the problem you're describing has nothing to do with bringing a level shifted toon to an iTrial (which is an decision event that takes place before the trial begins)? The problem you're describing is the mindset that takes effect as soon as an iTrial is advertised and during it's execution.

That very mindset, however, is the problem...

(I'm going to use myself and Sooner as the subject in the following internal monologue)

Sooner is advertising for a Lambda, she knows how to lead the Lambda, so I'll go with her.

Hmm, which toon to play? I'll bring this flat 50, it can use the iXP.

I'll be able to contribute to the trial because I know what my toon can do for the league. Sooner and the rest of the people on the league know what they're doing, and I know what I'm doing, so there won't be a problem. With all of the buff/debuffs flying around we'll just stomp right through this thing like we always do.

Here are the problems with this line of thinking:
1. My choice to bring the flat 50, knowing that the toon is going to be at a significant numerical disadvantage (at -4, the baseline is just less than 50% effective).
2. My assumption that the league leader, and the rest of the league are going to bring capable and complimentary toons.
3. My assumption that the league is going to know the iTrial (and what needs to be done to succeed), and we won't run into any problems.

However, the biggest mistake with that line of thinking is the incorrect belief that my choice at the character select screen has little to no bearing on the outcome of the trial: we're going to win like we always do. And that just isn't true. Failure is always a possibility. And the fact that I've brought a toon that is at a significant numerical disadvantage puts the entire league at that much more of a disadvantage and makes failure that much more of a possibility.

Alright. I concede that point.

It makes sense that you would want players to bring the best they can to the Trials.

Still... I have a lot of characters I would like to get up to those levels, too, so I can increase the options I can provide should I find the League/Team makeup lacking in certain areas. I don't have the time to rely on the exchange rate or the alternative path to get any real progress with them.

Playing my +3 characters constantly would be doing very little to help my other characters. Even when I participate in the grind, I'm not grinding enough for that kind of benefit.

So we're back to the initial disagreement and how it leaves me with a real sour taste in my mouth that I'm being told I should only be bringing a shifted character to a Trial that was designed for flat 50s to be able to accomplish. How am I supposed to improve the rest of my roster when I'm being barred out of hand because I didn't bring the Grinder?

Note, I know I'm not actually barred from anything (I think; I don't think we have a blacklist running anymore). Again, exaggeration for effect. It's the attitude that's perceived, though, which is again leading to sour reactions.

Just to be clear, no one has said that 50s can't go on iTrials. To reiterate, *I* have a very strong preference to see toons with at least one level shift on the easier trials (BAF & Lambda) for reasons that can be found throughout this thread. I have yet to see anyone barred from them for playing a flat 50 (on a BAF or Lambda).

Although the easier of the trials (BAF & Lambda) can probably be accomplished by flat 50s, the amount of effort and the potential for failure would be substantially higher than one featuring toons with additional level shifts. Assuming adequate skill levels and team composition equal on both comparative leagues, the group more level shifts will have a significantly easier time (fewer death, quicker time to completion, etc). As has been mentioned by others earlier in the thread, although it is doable, why would a league subject itself to that trouble by bringing all flat 50s?

But none of this addresses your question: "How am I supposed to improve the rest of my roster<snip>?"

My response to that is: use the non-incarnate path to get that first level shift. Currently, the weekly strike target (Sutter and Kal) are being run by both 50s looking for the Notice of the Well, and by sub-50s seeking the bonus XP. This should be one of the easier TFs to recruit for: players with toons from 20 right on up to 50+ should be interested for various reasons; and the larger the level range of the TF/SF, the more toons people can choose from, the more that should choose to attend.

I want to make one additional point about the "grind": If you've played the game long enough, you've probably done nearly all (if not absolutely all) of the content at least once (probably with different toons). At the point you've done any mission/task once, every time afterward could be considered a grind. This includes iTrials and any other set of missions.

I suspect that my understanding of "grind" is different from other people's definitions. What is yours?

T does not speak for everyone. And NO ONE is advocating barring flat 50's from BAF or Lambda.

However, to answer your question, if you have 50+3s running trials, it's extremely easy to get that first level shift. Run the Ramiel arc**, and/or buy an Alpha unlock with your 50+3. 40 astrals (not hard to accumulate if you're running your 50+3) converted in the mail to 40 shards, plus one WST gets a tier 3 alpha.

Just like that, you're not a flat 50 anymore.

**people, most definitely including myself, are always willing to help run that arc if you need help on a less survivable toon.

Read my stories!

Well, I don't really have much ground left to stand on as far as bringing flat 50s to the I Trials. Almost all of my 50s are +1s at least.

Still, you should keep in mind that not everybody bringing a flat 50 is aware of the methods you've illustrated. I don't have that excuse, I'm a veteran, I should know what's available. If I'm not speaking up to pull a team together for all of that stuff, that's on me.

But we still have newbies (which, frankly, is awesome, even if they're a bit crude at first). As they're getting to 50 for the first time, they're probably eager to get in on all the I-Trials they've been seeing form up. They probably don't have a clue as to the other methods to unlock and level up their Alpha Slot. Heck, a lot of them probably climbed the ranks through the AE, wondering at those weird little pop-ups telling them another contact wants to talk to them.