A discussion: iTrials and level shifts

You're right. Nothing will get proven. Nothing will change.

The players with level shifted toons but choose to bring flat 50s will keep doing so. And I will continue to bring my +1 or more level shifted toons and allow them to ride on my coattails.

Such is life.

Furthermore, this is a part of the challenge that has been bugging me:

By what measure is a flat 50? A character can still be a flat 50 and have Incarnate abilities. In fact, you could conceivably have ALL of the Incarnate powers and still be a flat 50. You don't need to have the Alpha Level Shift to utilize the Lore pet. Nor do you need to have an Alpha slotted to launch a Judgement attack.

As has been stated before, we've already been through this series of events. We've already struggled with the Lambda and BAF when they were first implemented and we only had +1s and more than a few players bringing their flat 50s to the Trials. Heck, we even battled our way through the Keyes when it was set to melt players, regardless of level shifts.

Those challenges can be done. We've done them. They were designed to be done with flat 50s.

Which is pretty much why it's eyeboggling when a player says he would prefer players bring level shifted characters to the Trials and that he feels he's carrying them if they don't. Since we've endured the +4 enemies issue plenty of times before, it's more than a little insulting to players who have demonstrated proficiency and discouraging for new players who have only just reached level 50 and are curious about the Incarnate system.

Now, let's be careful lumping the trials all together.

BAF, Lambda, and Keyes are a whole other world from TPN, MoM, and DD.

I don't have a problem with non-level shifted toons on the former. To keep it from being arduous, I'd prefer more level shifts than non-shifted... but either way, it's doable. And even Major T only said he didn't like it, not that he thought it shouldn't be allowed.

On the higher level trials, it IS a problem. It is inconsiderate to the other players, and, as I said before, the BEST I can hope for is that you don't understand the negative impact you're having - ESPECIALLY on MoM and DD where you can quite directly and literally be the reason the trial fails.

And for underground - I'm simply going to blame the devs for creating this problem. It's a massively rich source of iXP. You can go from nothing unlocked to fully unlocked in just a few runs. So of COURSE everyone wants to bring lowbies on an UG. However, too many lowbies is a near guaranteed failure.

So many problems would be solved here if the devs would have added levels gates to the trials so the people trying to lead the trials don't have to police it - and end up the bad guy for doing it.

Read my stories!

Sorry, Major, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major_T How many people will step up and show me how useful their flat 50 can be? How many will step up and prove to me that their flat 50 can contribute as significantly as one with level shifts? How many will step up and prove to me that their toons don't need to be "carried" by someone with level shifts? How many will step up and make me eat my words?

How many will not step up because they don't give a fig about Incarnate trials and believe level shifts are unnecessary for 98% of this game's content?

* raises hand *

If you can't get enough people to "step up", it might be simply because they enjoy playing the level 1 - 49.9 content a lot more...

On the plus side, I won't be riding your coattails anytime soon !

Edit: and this is all I'll say on this thread. Carry on.

I have a question for Major T regarding this.

Which of these is the bigger 'bad thing' in your eyes:

1) Someone bringing their main character who hasn't been incarnated at all and is a flat 50 (but has alpha unlocked)
or
2) Someone who has several incarnated 50+ characters but brings a flat 50 instead to work on that toon

A flat 50 on a BAF or Lamda doesn't bother me too much as they can pretty much be done in a few minutes unless there's too many flat 50s Everyone was a flat 50 once... and BAF and Lamda are prety quick but it's when you venture into the other trials with flat 50s that it gets dicey.

What I don't understand is why someone who has a level shifted character would bring a flat 50 toon to the trials when they could get them to 50+1 first. I collected threads on one of my other 50+ then did the Oro thing. I got my tank to 50+1 without setting foot in a trial with her.You can swap and move threads around through Oroboros, so you can play on your 50+ and STILL get work done on your other toons. Do Lamdas and BAFs and you collect threads pretty quick. Swap them over to shards, get them mailed to your account and redeem them on your toon you want to incarnate to +1. Shazaaam!

I totally agree that there should be an incarnate level requirement for certain trials.

I can't speak for anyone else (like you, Stone Daemon) who brings a 50+3, I can only declare how I feel on the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverdancer Which of these is the bigger 'bad thing' in your eyes: 1) Someone bringing their main character who hasn't been incarnated at all and is a flat 50 (but has alpha unlocked) or 2) Someone who has several incarnated 50+ characters but brings a flat 50 instead to work on that toon

The second is worse, assuming that the person in option #1 has no other incarnates. As I mentioned earlier (and as you mentioned in your post) there is more than one way to get that first Alpha shift and I see no reason why not to take advantage of those options. That one level difference increases the effectiveness by 17 percentage points across the board (if you want to get into the numbers side of the game as Trickshooter posted earlier). A flat 50 toon goes from having it's base values being slightly less than 50% effective, to a substantial amount more than 60% at 50+1 against level 54 enemies (a 17 percentage point or 35% increase in effectiveness fro 48% to 65%). For comparison, a 50+3 is operating at 90% (a 42 percentage point or 87% increase versus a flat 50) effectiveness against 54 enemies.

To provide a little more perspective, a level 50+3 Defender would be able to do damage to a level 54 enemy at a rate only slightly lower (6 percentage points) than that of a flat 50 Blaster (and the Defender would still bring all of the benefits that their primary).

Trick, please check my math on the above statement.

What I have seen is an uptick in completely flat 50s trying to do trials. And last night I was one of them. But I was on a fully IO slotted Electric Armor/ Ice Melee tank I finished leveling on Tuesday and slotting right before the trials started.

Richter started with a Lambda/Baf combo of runs. I survived running the warehouse for pac grenades, and on the BAF was tasked with Taunting the AVs to the rally point.

Due to my level shift gap, I was not able to maintain aggro control over the AVs, but Huron was on a Brute that could. So whenever he got double ringed or sequestered I would do my best to spam taunt. My damage output was saddening, but my ability to survive, off-tank taunt and dropping ice patch to popcorn the Ambush mobs made me feel useful.

The 3rd trial I did was a Keyes. My first reaction was to swap out for one of my 50+3 Electric tanks so I would be able to taunt Anti-Matter. But Huron had switched to his and Richter said I should be ok on my flat 50. So I re-logged in my flat 50 Electric Tank. Huron asked me if wanted to do Top or Bottom Tier for the mob clearing. I figured that with my level shifts and a full tray of Inspirations I could handle the Top Tiers of each reactor. When we had final done all the reactors and gotten to the Final Phase I did my best to back Huron up as often as I could. I died once, bought more green inspirations and jumped back in.

My 4th trial for the night was another BAF. Again, my lack of level shifts made it tough, especially during the prisoner escape phase, as I just could not do enough to them, and lack of Lore Pets made it more so. I again tried to keep the Ambush spawns popping up and down on Ice Patch, and taunting the AVs as often as possible. Was getting frustrated at what little I could do by this point.

The 5th trial of the night was a successful TPN. This time I switched to one of my 50+3 Electric Tanks. Helped clear Terminals. Inkat’ed around to help at other Terminals when the Tech at my Terminal was done and I could help. Having Lore Pets, Destinies and all my level shifts made me feel useful again. But the rewards are going to a Toon that is already t4 across the board, with at least 3 t4 destinies. I just rather run something helpful on a trial like this one.

The 6th trial of the night was a successful UG. This time I switched to my 50+3 Plant/Rad Controller, as we already had two solid tanks, and I figured Debuff would be more helpful. This was fun, with most everyone level shifted at least twice.

The 7th and final trial for me last night was a Lambda. That I switched out for my flat 50 Electric Tank for. We succeed in good fashion, with only a few hiccups. At the end of which I got the rare I needed to be T3 in my Alpha and being 50+1 after 5 trials.

My point is that I worked on a new flat 50, switched when something else was needed, and still got a level shift in one evenings’ 3 hours of play. Is that normal for me? No. I was using my wifes’ account which has never had a incarnate before. So I had no excess store of Astrals or Emps. I had to do it a more measured and slower pace. Normally 5 trials completed and I would be 50+3 if I was in a hurry.

I understand I am not a usual case. I get that my play style is not like most other peoples’ on Protector. What is usual is the folks I team with the most, all try our best to make trials a success for ourselves and everyone we team with. That for all our snark, we want to have fun, and succeed.

It boils down to this:

Either you're too incompetent to obtain the alpha shift, which means you're probably too incompetent to be effective in trials,

OR

You're too self-centered to care that obtaining the alpha shift increases the chances for success for everyone on an iTrial league, in which case you probably shouldn't be in a multiplayer environment.

Whine and moan all you want, but someone who is leading a trial can request, or even demand, what ever parameters suits his/her fancy. The most egregious whiners when it comes to the level shift issue never step up to lead their own (flat-fiftyfest) trials, and thus never have to bear the responsibility of a failed trial, even though they're probably the largest reason trials fail. These arguments all boil down to one thing: People who bawl and cry about player-created level-gating are only doing so to divert attention from the actual problem, themselves. "Look, I'm a useless tard, but if I scream enough at Major T, people won't notice!"

Keep throwing your temper tantrums people. It just makes you easier to pick out and put on /gignore. When the dust settles, we can finally leave the dead weight where it belongs.

Can we move away from Lambda, BAF, and Keyes?

I don't think anyone is really arguing that you HAVE to have a +3 for those trials. A few people have expressed that they don't like flat 50s on the lower level trials... but no one is saying they're not allowed. m'kay?

The real discussion here should be about flat 50s on the upper level trials: TPN, MoM, DD... arguably UG.

Read my stories!

For a person who thinks this:

Quote:

And as I've said earlier, this is pointless.

You seem to keep showing up a lot to argue the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone Daemon *snickers* Yes, because that one person's lack of a +1 is the vital difference needed for the league to succeed on that Lambda.

One person, maybe not. But if everyone had your attitude, it wouldn't just be one person showing up at -4, -5, -6, or -7.

Here's a question to everyone:

What if you just like to use your Astral merits to cash in for vendor stuff (recipes, costume pieces, etc)? And the people that think the Astral exchange rate is just bad for shards? Or don't want to waste the shards that they've already started stockpiling?

Once you get to UG and up, you should at least be +1. Otherwise you won't really be contributing anything but becoming a dead weight. Unless you're a defender or something.