This is what I originally said...
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I then clarified my statement with this...|
Originally Posted by Major_T
The other night I participated in a discussion in Jello Shooters about the utility of level shifts in iTrials. I stated that I felt some irritation when I see players bring flat 50s (non-level shifted toons) on BAF and Lambda.
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Originally Posted by Major_T
My biggest gripe with flat 50s are those players that do have the time and resources to have multiple level shifted toons, actually have multiple level shifted toons, and still choose to bring a flat 50 on advanced iTrials.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I can't really agree that flat 50s shouldn't be allowed to join Lambda/BAF/Keyes.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
By telling people they can't bring a straight 50 to a BAF or Lambda you are alienating a lot of players, thus completely circumventing the entire point of trials.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Getting ticked at someone for bringing a flat 50 to a BAF/Lambda?
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If you're going to react and respond to something you think I said, please make sure I said it.
"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
Here's a challenge for those who took issue with my comment on flat 50s on BAF/Lambda, put together a league of pure flat 50s and see how the experience differs from a league that is a mixed bag of 50+1s to 50+3s.
Scratch that, I'll do it.
I'll organize a league to run Lambda and BAF on Thursday @ 8 EST (7 Central, 6 Mountain, 5 Pacific) in Dark Astoria. Unslot all of your incarnate powers and let's see how it goes.
"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
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There's no need to do that as they were already done (ie when they first came out). They sucked but they were do-able.|
Originally Posted by Major_T
Here's a challenge for those who took issue with my comment on flat 50s on BAF/Lambda, put together a league of pure flat 50s and see how the experience differs from a league that is a mixed bag of 50+1s to 50+3s.
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Edit: see sig.
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It seems that those lessons have been forgotten.
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
There's no need to do that as they were already done (ie when they first came out).
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"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
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Actually, when they first came out, there were done by 50+1 characters, since the alpha slot had been out for long enough to have plenty of +1 characters available.
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
There's no need to do that as they were already done (ie when they first came out). They sucked but they were do-able.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Getting ticked at someone for bringing a flat 50 to a BAF/Lambda?
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Originally Posted by Major_T
Did I say I was "ticked"?
If you're going to react and respond to something you think I said, please make sure I said it. |
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Originally Posted by Major_T
The other night I participated in a discussion in Jello Shooters about the utility of level shifts in iTrials. I stated that I felt some irritation when I see players bring flat 50s (non-level shifted toons) on BAF and Lambda.
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The issue I was responding to--and I imagine others were as well--was that you found a problem with it enough to mention it in the first place. As if you felt it was wrong, and people shouldn't be doing it. And I can't agree with that, for the reasons I said. Of course, as long as your opinions don't color your actions, it really doesn't matter.
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Originally Posted by Major_T
I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed to join.
Did I say I was "ticked"? If you're going to react and respond to something you think I said, please make sure I said it. |
I'd just like to point out that the reason it's super easy to do those itrials like BAF and Lambda today is that a LOT of people are bringing +2 and +3s, etc so they can get threads to deck out their other toons. Of course a trial is going to seem easy if there's a whack of +3 incarnates on a trial with you.
I can totally get the irritation that T feels. I get it when I have to constantly rez the same person, or spend time and powers on that person because they keep dying because they're not incarnated up.
That being said, everyone HAS to start somewhere, but the Dev's cleverly put the Oro thread trade off mail extravanganza in there so you'd only have to do it on one toon, then you can still do the trial on a shifted toon AND get loot for your other toons too. I don't mind if I have to help carry one of your toons to incarnated greatness, but what gets irritating is being expected to carry them all.
Ticked and irritation are not the same thing to me.
Irritation is the initial sentiment, ticked is the end result.
When I'm irritated, I take mental note of something (I might even say something via a tell) and move on.
When I'm ticked I start kicking people.
"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
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Lessons? I imagine most of the problems people had in those days were learning how to play the content. Even today those trials can fail on mostly shifted leagues due to a lack of listening, or poor league composition.
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Originally Posted by Major_T
It seems that those lessons have been forgotten.
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That's nice, but I didn't use that word, so I don't know what you're trying to prove.
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Originally Posted by Major_T
Ticked and irritation are not the same thing to me.
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May I suggest we move past the whole "ticked vs irritated" thing?
T's one of my best friends... and I don't agree with him and I didn't like his choice of words.
But in the end, he was just expressing his personal opinion on the subject. He has never refused to bring a flat 50 on a BAF or Lambda, nor has any of the regular league leaders.
It was just an expression of his own opinion and reaction to it. It's not really relavent or important to spend time debating what word choice we should use to discuss Major T's personal opinion and reaction.
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I agree that there were problem learning the trials, and I have seen failures and near failures due to incompetence. However, I also believe that the difference between failures and a smooth and successful trial can be traced to the increased effectiveness of level shifts and the incarnate powers associated with them.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Lessons? I imagine most of the problems people had in those days were learning how to play the content. Even today those trials can fail on mostly shifted leagues due to a lack of listening, or poor league composition.
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That's why I want to test the theory that flat 50s doing a BAF/Lambda are at a serious disadvantage by arbitrarily taking away that advantage from all participants. Each participant will have to stand on their own without having the support of a level shifted league-mate to carry them.
I've put forward the challenge and I expect everyone here who disagrees with me to show up and see for themselves.
I'm willing to "eat" my words if I'm wrong, so prove me wrong.
"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
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I just to point out that Richter is one of several people who put themselves out there to organize and run trials. |
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
... Last I checked, Richter was doing nightly iTrial runs spanning most of them that he could. ...
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Huron most notably leads several times a week. Iron General and Major T lead them as well. BLA and Mage Black on occasion. I'm sure I've left someone out, and I'm sorry if I did.
I point this out just because that leading a trial is a very daunting task, and I want to make sure that those brave souls who do it with regularity are recognized for their effort.
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Sorry, but I don't have any new flat 50s that need the iXP, and I was never one to waste my time to prove a point about something. |
Originally Posted by Major_T
I've put forward the challenge and I expect everyone here who disagrees with me to show up and see for themselves.
I'm willing to "eat" my words if I'm wrong, so prove me wrong. |
Edit: Besides, such a challenge is a dead end. If it's successful, it's debatable how successful it was to each person. And one could say that it was only successful because this specific team was optimally configured, etc. If it's unsuccessful, that is also debatable (unless it's a failure, obviously), and the other side could say it only went so bad because we didn't have X, or X person wasn't listening. This kind of challenge generally doesn't prove anything.
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Originally Posted by Sooner
I just to point out that Richter is one of several people who put themselves out there to organize and run trials.
Huron most notably leads several times a week. Iron General and Major T lead them as well. BLA and Mage Black on occasion. I'm sure I've left someone out, and I'm sorry if I did. I point this out just because that leading a trial is a very daunting task, and I want to make sure that those brave souls who do it with regularity are recognized for their effort. |
Here is my suggestion.
There should be a core group of players that can scratch together the minimum assortment of AT’s to successfully complete Lambda and Bafs at the minimum number of players. I challenge those that read and post to the boards to step up and lead. Be willing to be one of the main people that can bring a specific AT that is 50+2 or 50+3 to help with the basics. And be willing to do at least one set of Lambda and Baf as often as possible. In a consolidated method of helping the rest of the server.
Tank, Dom, Debuff/Buff, DPS. These are what I feel are most often needed to be successful on these trials.
Specifically, I would call for the following recipe for survival and success.
Team 1:
Electric Tank
Rad Toggles
Perma-Dom
DPS
Team 2:
Electric Tank
Rad Toggles
Perma-Dom
DPS
On either trial, this should be the core of any league. Can it be done with other combinations? Certainly. And has been done often enough.
I am sure enough of us could be counted on to bring what was “needed”, and then also have the chance to bring toons that need to be worked on. Personally, I have enough 50+3s to choke a bison. So I would be willing to put my money where my mouth is. I will bring one of the Electric Tanks to every Lambda/Baf run for the next month.
I would also be willing to start up runs at 8 pm est as often as possible. Anyone willing to help me?
210 50s and still counting!
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Originally Posted by Ura Hero
I'll toss my two cents in here.
Incarnate content is gated way to long for people with limited play time. I still don't have but three 50's that have any incarnate progress. They have pretty much just the basics with shards since that is the time I had to step away from the game. With the amount of playtime that I have currently available and judging by my current progress, it is going to be sometime around 2020 when I get even one of them to any decent place with respect to progress. I just don't have time. If there needs to be a limiter with respect to what a person can bring to a trial or TF, Paragon Studios should put the barrier in the way and say; "Stop right there. You can't do this because you cannot make a significant contribution." However, this has not happened and likely won't happen. Steamrolling content is well and good. I love it. I enjoy it. It's not a lot of fun to start something and fail due to lack of DPS, buffage, etc. BTDT. This is one of the issues that I foresaw when they showed the massive tree that is the incarnate path. It's cool. It's meaningful (to some extent). It gives tons of progression for 50's. Unfortunately, it is also as slow as a snail to progress when you don't have time to play hard core. It would be nice to have an offline "build up" mode to move the bar a bit faster when you haven't been able to play as much with increased drop rates to match. So, the new stuff has lured another $15 out of my pocket, but I can't join in to the new trials since I have nothing to "help" out with. *shrugs* Perhaps it is disrespectful to join in with a "light weight", but then if no one is doing to older content how would I ever get my 50 to be incarnate in the first place? Just to put this in perspective, I ground out several 30 minute solo sessions (around 4 hours total) this last weekend to get two shards. Two freaking shards. I need about another 30 to finish my top tier Alpha slot. On one toon. I ran the new DA intro mission arc last week to get four threads to finish my second tier two judgement power. Again, it took me about three hours to get the four threads. Absolutely freaking nuts for a drop rate that needs so many to do anything useful with. My progress on the Lore and Interface XP is just as dismal. I understand the gating and why it is done, but all Paragon is doing is annoying the **** out of the folks who don't have time to sit down and spend 6 or 8 hours at a stretch playing. I've been there. You know I have. I used to sit for 12 hour stretches doing task forces and trials, for both days every weekend and 4 to 6 hours every night after work. I can do it, but I just don't have time. Real life demands some attention. So, I am punished for that lack of time. To be honest, the whole system doesn't engender me to plunk down another $15 for next month. My stable of 50's just sit there looking forelone knowing that they won't ever make it to be incarnates since I can't even get one to the current level. So the way it currently stands, I know I will still be in the same boat next year sitting out in my little corner of Northeast Talos wondering at all of the water around me but knowing I can't drink any of it. |
Not to call you a liar, but I dont think your trying to optimize your limited play time if your struggling to even get +1
You can get your tier one alpha running 3 short TFs, that is if 12 shards really seem that rare. I usually use threads for tier 2 alpha since a single WST notice can be converted into 40 easy threads. You can get shard drops from any lvl mob when exemped so run some for fun mid lvl tfs to help lowbie friends, such are packed with kill alls that can be plowed through. you play an hour a day, knocking out optimal content like TFs, Story Arcs, Tips and the like and you will rake in shards while doing other fun things.
Sound impossible? Its not. I have a character who hasnt run a single incarnate trial, has his tier 3 alpha, only left with Destiny to unlock, and tier 2s in the unlocked slots. His entire concept just doesnt fit incarnate as it is implimented so I outside of technically Assissting a fellow hero with his initial unlock arc, he hasnt done anything but convert shards as he finds them to threads, and earn notices every week if the WST is one he is fun for, and hey someday if he does have to be batman aiding the JLA against ol crater face so be it, least he wont be walking in without a plan.
For reference (Yay numbers!)
These are the values at which your debuffs values, mez durations, and damage will function at when fighting enemies a higher level than you:
+1 - 90%
+2 - 80%
+3 - 65%
+4 - 48%
+5 - 30%
+6 - 15%
+7 - 8%
You can find out what this will look like by moving the decimal place of the percentage value to the left 2 places and multiplying this number by your debuff value, mez duration or damage value.
So let's look at Blaster's Ice Bolt:
At 50, this will do 62.56 damage without basic SO slotting. With SO slotting, it will do roughly 123.24 damage. Let's assume they're attacking an enemy with no Cold or Smashing Resistances.
Against a +1, this will be reduced to: 110.92
Against a +2, this will be reduced to: 98.59
Against a +3, this will be reduced to: 80.12
Against a +4, this will be reduced to: 59.16
Against a +5, this will be reduced to: 36.97
Against a +6, this will be reduced to: 18.49
Against a +7, this will be reduced to: 9.86
Also, this is your base chance tohit against fighting enemies higher level than you:
+1 - 65%
+2 - 56%
+3 - 48%
+4 - 39%
+5 - 30%
+6 - 20%
+7 - 8%
To see how this would affect you in game, use this formula:
Final Hit Chance = (A power's inherent accuracy * (1.0 + A power's accuracy enhancements + global accuracy bonuses)) * (Base chance tohit + (ToHit buffs - ToHit debuffs) - (Target's Defense buffs - Defense debuffs on target))
So again, we'll look at a Blaster's Ice Bolt, and assume this Blaster has no IO bonuses, has slotted 1 Accuracy SO, and the target has no Defense.
Against a +1, their final chance to hit will be reduced to: 86.6%
Against a +2, their final chance to hit will be reduced to: 74.6%
Against a +3, their final chance to hit will be reduced to: 64%
Against a +4, their final chance to hit will be reduced to: 52%
Against a +5, their final chance to hit will be reduced to: 40%
Against a +6, their final chance to hit will be reduced to: 26.7%
Against a +7, their final chance to hit will be reduced to: 10.7%
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
Not to call you a liar, but I dont think your trying to optimize your limited play time if your struggling to even get +1
You can get your tier one alpha running 3 short TFs, that is if 12 shards really seem that rare. I usually use threads for tier 2 alpha since a single WST notice can be converted into 40 easy threads. You can get shard drops from any lvl mob when exemped so run some for fun mid lvl tfs to help lowbie friends, such are packed with kill alls that can be plowed through. you play an hour a day, knocking out optimal content like TFs, Story Arcs, Tips and the like and you will rake in shards while doing other fun things. Sound impossible? Its not. I have a character who hasnt run a single incarnate trial, has his tier 3 alpha, only left with Destiny to unlock, and tier 2s in the unlocked slots. His entire concept just doesnt fit incarnate as it is implimented so I outside of technically Assissting a fellow hero with his initial unlock arc, he hasnt done anything but convert shards as he finds them to threads, and earn notices every week if the WST is one he is fun for, and hey someday if he does have to be batman aiding the JLA against ol crater face so be it, least he wont be walking in without a plan. |
*sigh* I didn't say anything about optimizing play time or even trying to. Heck, I have been gone for over six months now, probably closer to nine. There is a ton to catch up on. I didn't even know about the mailables in Ouro till someone mentioned it in this thread. I hadn't even gotten to the point of knowing that the DA arc was repeatable. The patch notes could be a bit better written and make this stuff a bit clearer.
The point was, this game is pretty daunting to get your character incarnated. More so when you come back to the game and have missed a lot of content. The devs seem to think that everyone has an abundance of play time. I was attempting to point out that this was not the case. Apparently I failed.
Tech Support Rule #1 - They will lie to you. Usually intentionally.
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I am noticing that the DA arc's missions are HUGE. I mean the maps are ginormous! I have mine set to 1x1 and it takes me longer than I like to get them done. I did 2 missions today that took me all of my play time for the morning and I was expecting to get more done. I totally get what you're saying - it can take a long time!
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Originally Posted by Ura Hero
The devs seem to think that everyone has an abundance of play time.
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Thank you for posting this.
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
For reference (Yay numbers!)
These are the values at which your debuffs values, mez durations, and damage will function at when fighting enemies a higher level than you: +1 - 90% +2 - 80% +3 - 65% +4 - 48% +5 - 30% +6 - 15% +7 - 8% |
"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
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When we first beta tested BAF, Lambda, and Keyes we had no level shifts available and they were a complete pain. Once we learned the tricks we succeeded more and more often, but it involved a lot of zerging from the hospital for the tanks. The point is, it's doable, but I sure wouldn't want to go back to it personally.
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Originally Posted by Sooner
Actually, when they first came out, there were done by 50+1 characters, since the alpha slot had been out for long enough to have plenty of +1 characters available.
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Sure... in beta.|
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
When we first beta tested BAF, Lambda, and Keyes we had no level shifts available and they were a complete pain. Once we learned the tricks we succeeded more and more often, but it involved a lot of zerging from the hospital for the tanks. The point is, it's doable, but I sure wouldn't want to go back to it personally.
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On live, we had 50+1. But, yes... I understand. They can be done by flat 50s. And I agree... I wouldn't want to go back to it.
Thank you very much for that thread. So it isn't quite as bad as the RNG seemed to be making it last week. I'll drop a few more hours on it and see if it improves any.
Tech Support Rule #1 - They will lie to you. Usually intentionally.