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Simple The average DPA of each attack varies between 'equal to ranged pets', 'below ranged pets', or 'slightly above ranged pets'. Add in the the critical hit chance, and it's a bit higher in each respect. Beyond that, if you're lucky, your beasts will have 15 seconds, out of 60 seconds, of steroided damage (+100% or so odd damage, but with their base damage this is a deceptive number. Don't be fooled.)|
Originally Posted by Crysys
Wow....Beast damage is that poor? Hyperbole aside, please describe this further?
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They are capable of 'impressive for a mastermind pet' burst damage. Now, this may seem good on paper, but again; pets have horrible base damage, 100% or so bonus damage is NOT that much on them, but it is good! However, you have to fact in the following.
1) Almost no AoE
2) Literally no ranged.
3) Did I mention they have BARELY ANY ATTACKS?
You may be asking about that third one. Let me explain.
Wolves and Lions: A single attack with out an upgrade. Gain a single second attack with the first upgrade. Gain a single third attack at the second upgrade.
These attacks? 3/6/9 cooldowns. This means, after the first attack rotation, your pets will now be having 'dead period' of 2-3 seconds for the rest of combat. Do you know how many other Mastermind pets have this issue?
The Protector Bots by design, and the Ember Demon, because the Hellfire Demon MORE than makes up for this.
Which Beast Mastery pets make up for this? NONE. They ALL have this flaw. But it gets worse.
The Alpha Wolf, the unique third Wolf pet for the first summon? TWO. ATTACKS. 3/6 cooldown.
The Dire Wolf? 3/6/14/14/60.
So, in retrospective?
You have barely any AoE.
You have literally no ranged.
If your pet AI is smart, your pets will have 100% odd something bonus damage for 15 seconds roughly every minute... but half of that time is wasted because they have so few attacks and the cooldowns are horrible.
Outside of those 15 seconds, you're doing even LESS damage, your pets are idling with their tails up their ***** because of their poor attack numbers, and your Boss Pet is the second most guilty of standing there with his tail up his *** (the Alpha Wolf being the biggest sinner).
So, yeah. They didn't learn anything. 3 attacks maximum on four of your pets. Two attacks on one of them and it's not even worth the trade of (It gets a lame heal in exchange, which the Lionesses do better), and the Dire Wolf? A damn joke.
They have low dmg?and that dmg is lethal? the most resited and useless type of dmg for a pet...
HELLO DARK DOM!
I want /Fire stalker. Because nothing says stealth like dumping a can of gasoline on yourself and lighting a match. -Morac
Two questions: did you play one to at least level 26? and did you take, and spam, your primary attacks?
I ask this because once you get all 6 pets out, and spam your primary attacks, they start spending most of their time with 6-10 stacks of Pack Mentality, which does pretty remarkable things to their +crit chance. Once I got to that point, mobs were disintegrating as fast as they were for my same-level demon summoner.
I also ask this because the "no ranged attacks" thing starts to matter a lot less once you start hitting mobs with -fly and -spd debuffs, which the mastermind primary attacks have.
With robotics, ninja summoning, thugs, and mercs, the mastermind primary attacks are things you take very, very late if at all. For demons, you take the first primary attack early, maybe, for the ranged pull and the lovely debuff, and probably skip the rest. Beast Mastery is designed to all-but require you to take all 9 powers to get the full benefit out of it.
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If 10-20% Critical Hit( and Damage) chance means so much to damage, why did Stalkers need a buff, and why are Scrappers not the KINGS OF EVERYTHING EVER?|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Two questions: did you play one to at least level 26? and did you take, and spam, your primary attacks?
I ask this because once you get all 6 pets out, and spam your primary attacks, they start spending most of their time with 6-10 stacks of Pack Mentality, which does pretty remarkable things to their +crit chance. Once I got to that point, mobs were disintegrating as fast as they were for my same-level demon summoner. I also ask this because the "no ranged attacks" thing starts to matter a lot less once you start hitting mobs with -fly and -spd debuffs, which the mastermind primary attacks have. With robotics, ninja summoning, thugs, and mercs, the mastermind primary attacks are things you take very, very late if at all. For demons, you take the first primary attack early, maybe, for the ranged pull and the lovely debuff, and probably skip the rest. Beast Mastery is designed to all-but require you to take all 9 powers to get the full benefit out of it. |
Again, it will probably be a "your mileage may vary" thing, but math doesn't lie. I never noticed it. Maybe I did something wrong. But, math doesn't lie.
Also, willing to bet against a BM/X beating a DS/X, same secondaries, in killspeed. Demons sheer -RES stacking + Exotic Typing + AoE makes me question this and I would love some testing.
Claiming is one thing, proving is another.
I'd say Beast/Thermal, but I don't want to make my pets be some crazy bad flaming spectacle. I'm terrible with traps, i'm sick of dark powers, shields seems out of canon with beasts, storms seem a bit too grand for a pack of animals, and people will just demand too much focus from pain...
Truth be told though, there's not much in the MM 2ndary that fits too well with beasts, especially when you got four dogs and two cats... personally I'd go for all wolves, easier to RP in virtue when you have a specific animal pack.
Dunno, guess I can go traps... Play with the MM attacks for once.
There's 4 kinds of smarts. Street smarts, brain smarts, survival smarts, profession smarts, and Me.
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I tried beast/thermal on test up to 32 or so. It was not terrible... /therm is probably my least liked mm secondary, so that's saying a bit. I'd choose almost anything else over /therm... (except maybe /pain for /beast), but that's me. I found it a little weaker than general, but completely playable - as long as you don't *need* to be a bad$$#. Definitely won't be playing it live though. traps, time & dark for me to start. Storm is tempting so you can slot the extra 2 pet procs.
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Originally Posted by Sharpshooter_III
I'd say Beast/Thermal, but I don't want to make my pets be some crazy bad flaming spectacle. I'm terrible with traps, i'm sick of dark powers, shields seems out of canon with beasts, storms seem a bit too grand for a pack of animals, and people will just demand too much focus from pain...
Truth be told though, there's not much in the MM 2ndary that fits too well with beasts, especially when you got four dogs and two cats... personally I'd go for all wolves, easier to RP in virtue when you have a specific animal pack. Dunno, guess I can go traps... Play with the MM attacks for once. |
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
I went with Sonic due to having too much /Time and not wanting to do /Dark. Besides, Sonic let me use the name Calls of the Wild.
So the beats actually have a fair amount of resistance, which I was not expecting. Paired with /Sonic they are fairly tough, and it provides plenty of res debuffs, to help them kill stuff faster. Level 16 so far, put Sonic Dispersion on lioness, bubble them, and then spam my attacks for pack mentality.
I am going with /Time only because I have not tried /Time and I think /Time pairs quite well with squishy all-melee pets.
When I tested Beast, I was using Beast/FF because I needed a set that doesn't occupy me too much. I was testing to see how many Pack Mentality I can gain by spamming my Swarm and Hawk attacks. I did take Raven but I was drawing more aggro than I wanted and the endurance cost was kinda high at lvl 15.
Anyway, I didn't gain as much PM with my personal attacks as I wanted to. And I didn't know one of pet's attacks did not gain PM (it was fixed in the most recent patch note I think).
I also wanted to compare my Ninja/FF with Beast/FF.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Wow, someone mentioned /sonic in a not entirely disparaging way, and here's Reppu to rant! Though admittedly not about the /sonic as such this time.
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They did increase beast's S/L resistance but they still lack fire, energy and psionic. |
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
I went with Sonic due to having too much /Time and not wanting to do /Dark. Besides, Sonic let me use the name Calls of the Wild.
So the beats actually have a fair amount of resistance, which I was not expecting. Paired with /Sonic they are fairly tough, and it provides plenty of res debuffs, to help them kill stuff faster. Level 16 so far, put Sonic Dispersion on lioness, bubble them, and then spam my attacks for pack mentality. |
I never like /sonic on its own. I think /sonic is ok if you have other team members with a complimentary secondary (like /FF).
I do see how it is easier with beast/sonic because all pets are melee. You don't need to worry about the anchor not going in.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Dark Miasma: Hard to go wrong with Dark. A great heal, Tar Pit, Fearsome Gaze, Dark Servant, Shadow Fall. Dark still remains easily one of the best MM secondaries. Hard to go wrong here.
Force Field: Forcefields is also pretty much the same easy mode as it's always been. Fire and forget powers, half the set is skippable, and combined with the Beast's naturally impressive Defense it's ridiculously easy to softcap. Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb help negate alphas and juggle.
Pain Domination: Pain offers a LOT of heals, and Suppress Pain offers a significant boost to their Regen (which means you don't always need to pop Fortify Pack). World of Pain boosts their resistance as well. But I'm not sure the Beast's resistances are necessarily high enough for it. Beasts have good resists, but they aren't Demons, nor do they have Ember Shield.
Poison: As a MM secondary I honestly couldn't recommend poison. It's got a decent heal and the mezz protection, but even with the "splash" it's debuffs are still too ST-focused for me. But it's just my personal opinion, I could never get into Poison enough to see where it might go.
Sonic Resonance: I could definitely see Sonic being an option. Disruption Field on a Lioness or the Dire Wolf, bubble your pets, and sic 'em. Beasts definitely have good enough resists that Sonic makes them better, without specializing their resists the way Thermal does. It's the resist form of FF.
Storm Summoning: Despite Reppu's opinion of Beast, I asked about a secondary, and got this as a recommendation. Storm definitely brings LOTS of options to the field. And I do mean a lot. So much so the MM personal attacks essentially get reduced to "Use them for procs and secondary effects". Steamy Mist gives the pets a modest boost to defense and boosts their existing resists. Freezing Rain is still a ridiculously good debuff. And you've got O2 Boost for a heal.
Thermal Radiation: Thermal has a lot to offer. Good resist shields, AoE and ST heals. Forge is a good +Dmg buff as well. Melt Armor and Heat exhaustion are good debuffs as well. However, the shields are pretty specific (S/L/Fire/Energy, with a hint of Toxic and Cold), and the debuffs are mostly ST related. Thermal is amazing on Demons because of their robust resists. Not completely sure how Thermal stacks up. Also a lack of mez resistance.
Time Manipulation: Time definitely works with Beasts because it's focus is on close-range work. Time's Juncture and Temporal Mending both require you to be fairly close to your pets. Farsight gives them a good Defense boost, and you've got plenty of options to debuff your enemies with. I'd definitely consider Time a viable option.
Traps: Traps definitely requires a semi-aggressive playstyle, but I could see it working well. Soak the alpha with Seekers, toe-drop a Poison Trap, drop a Mortar and go to town. FFG offers mez protection and good defense. Caltrops are amazing as always too. And with Web Grenade you've got that -Fly.
Trick Arrow: TA and I have had a fickle relationship. I love TA as a concept, and you can layer the debuffs down in seconds. Problem is you'll be firing those debuffs a LOT which means a lot of redraw with the personal attacks.
Overall, the fact Beasts wants you to take the Personal attacks (for Pack Mentality) means you need a set that doesn't keep you constantly busy. Traps, Forcefield, and Sonic definitely help. Time and Storm give you flexibility and options, but you're going to be busy as hell. Dark is (as usual) an incredibly solid option.
I'm seeing 25% recharge resistance in the tier 1 pets' resist power. I've not been paying attention for a while, but aren't all pets inherently immune to recharge debuffs anyway? I thought that was a side effect of also making them immune to recharge buffs.
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Sure it's not movement slow protection too?|
Originally Posted by Biowraith
I'm seeing 25% recharge resistance in the tier 1 pets' resist power. I've not been paying attention for a while, but aren't all pets inherently immune to recharge debuffs anyway? I thought that was a side effect of also making them immune to recharge buffs.
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I usually see slow protection come with recharge protection. Not sure if they can separate the two.
Culex's resistance guide
I think anyone purchasing Beast that has not play tested it on BETA should have a link to Reppu's review of the set. Caveat Emptor.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I've seen Reppu's review. I'm still going to buy it anyway. Better to have it now and start on it, than wait until they "fix" it and THEN buy it.
I am used to playing Ninja, Merc and Necro so my expectation of Beast was never that high. I knew that being 99% melee is a bad thing because they are very susceptible to massive aoe attacks. However, being 99% melee has its advantage. Their AI is predictable. You no longer have to deal with range pets running in or melee pets using weak range attacks (Jounin for example). You know all your pets will run in so your gameplan will need to be adjusted accordingly.
I'll review it more once I level my new Beast/Time higher. I have A LOT of experience with Ninja. I think Ninja is probably the best comparison for Beast. We'll see how it goes. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Plz don't explode teh puppehz.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
/Traps, Well, you can never really go wrong with /Traps. Yes, it does require a certain playstyle, but it has quite a bit of help to give your beasts. The Force Field Generator, while it does move slow, it recharges quick enough that you can just resummon it at whichever spot you moved to. You will be restricted to being in melee range with your pets, or you miss out on most of the power, so you will have to build up some self protection... Debuffs galore, some controlling ability when you give Poison Trap the Lockdown proc, One of the best alpha absorbers in the game, and the possibilty of exploding wolves. What's not to love?
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The Bacon Compels You.
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Good testing Reppu |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Simple The average DPA of each attack varies between 'equal to ranged pets', 'below ranged pets', or 'slightly above ranged pets'. Add in the the critical hit chance, and it's a bit higher in each respect. Beyond that, if you're lucky, your beasts will have 15 seconds, out of 60 seconds, of steroided damage (+100% or so odd damage, but with their base damage this is a deceptive number. Don't be fooled.)
They are capable of 'impressive for a mastermind pet' burst damage. Now, this may seem good on paper, but again; pets have horrible base damage, 100% or so bonus damage is NOT that much on them, but it is good! However, you have to fact in the following. 1) Almost no AoE 2) Literally no ranged. 3) Did I mention they have BARELY ANY ATTACKS? You may be asking about that third one. Let me explain. Wolves and Lions: A single attack with out an upgrade. Gain a single second attack with the first upgrade. Gain a single third attack at the second upgrade. These attacks? 3/6/9 cooldowns. This means, after the first attack rotation, your pets will now be having 'dead period' of 2-3 seconds for the rest of combat. Do you know how many other Mastermind pets have this issue? The Protector Bots by design, and the Ember Demon, because the Hellfire Demon MORE than makes up for this. Which Beast Mastery pets make up for this? NONE. They ALL have this flaw. But it gets worse. The Alpha Wolf, the unique third Wolf pet for the first summon? TWO. ATTACKS. 3/6 cooldown. The Dire Wolf? 3/6/14/14/60. So, in retrospective? You have barely any AoE. You have literally no ranged. If your pet AI is smart, your pets will have 100% odd something bonus damage for 15 seconds roughly every minute... but half of that time is wasted because they have so few attacks and the cooldowns are horrible. Outside of those 15 seconds, you're doing even LESS damage, your pets are idling with their tails up their ***** because of their poor attack numbers, and your Boss Pet is the second most guilty of standing there with his tail up his *** (the Alpha Wolf being the biggest sinner). So, yeah. They didn't learn anything. 3 attacks maximum on four of your pets. Two attacks on one of them and it's not even worth the trade of (It gets a lame heal in exchange, which the Lionesses do better), and the Dire Wolf? A damn joke. |
I'll just wait until a final fixed version is live. Until then I'll just hold onto my 800pp. If they don't fix it, that's 800 points saved. I suspect they will because if it doesn't sell, that's development money wasted.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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I read that flame war and bought the set anyways. I play heroes and villains, not spreadsheets.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I think anyone purchasing Beast that has not play tested it on BETA should have a link to Reppu's review of the set. Caveat Emptor.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
I just finished today's session with the /Time I made. I simply solod Mercy and PO arcs, papers and banks so far (no DFB) and it's been a very smooth ride to 11 with only 1 pet death. Yeah that's super lowbie, but historically I've always found I'd run into something troublesome to a MM by that point.
I'm really optimistic about the future. If all pets are meleers then /Time looks to be awesome.
So far no complaints. Next up - the lion pet.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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I have some not yet complete goods I would like to sell to you any interest? |
Originally Posted by Issen
I've seen Reppu's review. I'm still going to buy it anyway. Better to have it now and start on it, than wait until they "fix" it and THEN buy it.
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J/k don't get mad.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Then you would most likely qualify as an informed buyer which is all I encouraged.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
I read that flame war and bought the set anyways. I play heroes and villains, not spreadsheets.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Really it hardly matters if this set is the worst MM set by a mile, it will still be better than any other AT by a mile. In my opinion of course. Which, as I've stated, is incredibly biased.
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And the truth!|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Really it hardly matters if this set is the worst MM set by a mile, it will still be better than any other AT by a mile. In my opinion of course. Which, as I've stated, is incredibly biased.
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*releases the flaming wolves*
Attack, my minions! Devour them and I might put the fire out!
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
I sure hope Synapse really takes the time to rework all of the powers. The animations and pet designs are fine, but low survivability melee pets with worthwhile powers on long timers so the pets can use them at the worst time possible? And the only way to beef up survivability is to gimp damage? It's like they've never heard the years of complaints levied against Mercs and Ninjas, and they are determined to make the same mistakes again. *Puts hands over ears* "La-la-la-la-la!"