I22 Stalkers make me smile wide!

I'm not sure if I find these statements extremely hilarious because of how hypocritical they are or just really annoyed because I had been saying similar before the changes happened but probably the same people would say the exact opposite. Using AS from hide hasn't changed...and yet, it's somehow no longer a waste of endurance to try to use it despite the seemingly impossible feat of not being interrupted? Or when trying to point out the reason to use the tactic, only *NOW* is demoralize worth considering despite it not being changed either? Wow, you guys must be conveniently hand waving all those old arguments away now because nothing has come about to make those arguments any different.

I wouldn't go suggesting to new/returning Stalkers to use hidden AS anymore unless they just want to...only in the low lvls when it's your highest fastest hitting ST attack and/or if you wanted to make *sure* the target is hit. To tell someone to use outdated tactics to preserve some unanimously unfavorable aberration is just spreading more false information.

Because you have an AoE attack that can soften up a larger group. Or you have a faster animating high-tier power that will do quite a bit of damage while building up 1 shot of focus practically guaranteed...and AS will be sure to be recharged when you first get 3.

Yeah, same specialness as my fully slotted snipe being used to finish off the last runner with a high powered ranged critical...it's a novelty. The old Stalker always was just a novelty, and new Stalker is just a Scrapper

I don't. Let's see, they...

• Have higher base damage.
• Have higher self-damage buff scale (for things like Build Up).
• Have things other than Build Up.
• Don't need to pay any attention to something like Assassin's Focus.
• Have more HP.
• Have access to often desirable powers in powersets that Stalkers lost to make room for AS and Hide.

Are Scrappers unambiguously superior to Stalkers? Heck no. That's why this change is so wonderful, because before it, I think most people would have answered "yes, Scrappers are superior". Now, they are comparable but different. That's a good thing, not something to feel sorry for them over.

Oh no! Still bad (imo) to use AS from hidden if you'll easily be interrupted. I was thinking more from a normal minion, high enough defenses, find yourself hidden again as you go into a group.

Also, there are of course exceptions, like KM's Burst! I like to open up with the 100% crit. That however looks to one day get changed. And personally I never cared for the 50% crit chance of AOE attacks, so I like to open with ST attacks in that case anyways.

I am definitely not a fan of scrapper lock, but on my melee toons I usually try to have a default combo(s) to go for because that can take my attention away from staring at my powers icons and put it on to my environment and the people within it. When it becomes about leading trials and I have to monitor more stuff than when I'm driving, those intricate mechanics become hard to maintain. I get a headache sometimes.


Because everything must be an argument... Look, the pros of AS from hide have always been present, whether or not the information was readily available (for example, I had no idea that the to-hit debuff was un-resisted until I played around with Power Analyzer on AVs very recently). For the longest time, the problem with stalkers was that they were dependent on this situational power which was itself dependent on the effectiveness of placate, and this made the whole Stalker AT too situational. The cons of AS from hide become the cons of the AT.

Things change as time goes on. The ATO proc was a big one, since it allowed some great combos. Prior to I22 I had a setup that let me fire off AS from hide every time AS was charged without needing placate, and this brought with it a whole lot more versatility to the table. That was the first time that it ever truly felt like the stalker was the single-target king. The new assassin focus system shifted stalkers away from needing AS from hide at all. Without being dependent on the gimmick, the stalker becomes less situational and thus the cons of AS from hide quit being nearly as pivotal as they once were.

The fact still remains that AS from hide is a situational power still. If it is being used for anything other than part of the alpha strike then it is risky, inefficient, ineffective, and the cons do not outweigh the pros. If you are facing against enemies that have various attacks that will break hide automatically or have increased perception, it is still not worth the use. It isn't a problem anymore because now the players aren't being shoehorned into the "AS from hide or an inferior scrapper" dichotomy.


The ATO proc makes this a non-issue. With auto re-hiding you can have your cake and eat it, too.

I'd settle for it being a targeted AoE kinda like a reverse Taunt.

Don't forget that the -ToHit does not stack with other casters and it only lasts 8 seconds.

Which is namely my point and the evidence of which is within the posts of those in this very thread.

The faults of the AT were the situational burst damage being countered by systematic problems of the game. But rather than tend to those issues, they go ignored. Worse yet, they altered the AT from its original intent and then label it as fixed. Even worse yet, many are so blind by elitism and storms of comparative analysis that they actually believe their views were to help the AT when in fact, they simply destroyed it. And the worst, posters are still advising to use this unsupported strategy in light of the changes for whatever reason...soothe their conscience, novelty...can't be nostalgia...

But rather than gathering all those points you mentioned that make Hide, Placate and AS unwieldy and situational together then *fix* them to run more smoothly...they're instead shattered, separated and/or forgotten instead.

Right, because now there is no dichotomy...or choice. There is no difference between the two ATs. We're all now Scrappers with scarcely an element apart except one may have an AoE while the other has Energy Transfer.

And for what? Because Scrappers puff out their chests and made you feel inferior. It long stopped being about 'Fixing Stalkers' and became 'Making Stalkers as good or better than Scrappers'.



Speculation: with the old version of Stalkers, had they had the new IO, I feel they'd have been a lot better. Had they addressed Hidden AS, placate and Stalker burst damage rather than focusing on DPS and plain button mashing, I believe it'd have helped the AT all the same while keeping the ATs distinctive.

At least we don't have to pretend what I was saying before the beta was some sort of exaggeration. We all admit it; Stalkers are just Scrappers with Energy Transfer. I know, so far, I've been forgoing hidden AS for AoE burst from Spines, seamlessly into AS then clean up with recharged AoE. I'm sure when I get around to my Elec and Kin stalkers, it'll be the same...and I don't have any ATOs to slot on them either.

What secondary are you running with your Kinetic Melee toon? I am intrigued to roll up a Stalker. Never really gave one a serious look.

When I have a target that can survive it, I actually have an attack chain on my Dual Blades Stalker:

Sweep -> Attack Vitals -> Assassin's Strike -> Ablative Strike -> Attack Vitals -> Repeat the last three steps as necessary

I could probably do more damage, currently I tend not to notice when build-up is recharged, but the moves all flow together well. I find it aesthetically pleasing.

What the hell are you talking about? At what point did anyone ever suggest that using Assassin's Strike from hide was "bad?" The argument has always been that it's INCONVENIENT, with a side order of "what do I do next?" I, personally, have never had a problem with Assassin's Strike being used to open a battle. That has always worked just fine, in the same way as using a Snipe to open a battle has never been a problem. The actual problem was that Assassin's Strike becomes essentially useless after that initial strike, and your Stalker is left fighting as a gimped Scrapper, even with elevated critical chances. THAT is the issues this change fixes.

At no point has opening with Assassin's Strike from hide been a problem and the only time the Demoralise effect was ever scoffed at was when it plain wouldn't trigger if you killed an enemy with your Assassination critical. There's nothing wrong with Demoralise now that it triggers every time, ESPECIALLY since it makes landing the follow-up Placate critical that little bit easier. I used Assassin's Strike to open with before, and I use it in exactly the same way again, because at no point was there ever anything wrong with it. That was never the problem. The problem has always been what to do afterwards, and now we have a very good answer.

So why not use an AoE that would "soften up" the enemies more? Because AoEs have only a 60% chance to score a hidden critical, and because enemies are never close enough together to be affected by one before you start a fight. Not unless you're talking about Lightning Rod, but that doesn't score criticals as far as I'm aware, thus it doesn't benefit from Hide. Moreover, the Demoralisation effect has a VERY wide radius, much wider than most AoEs Stalkers have access to. And, really... What do I lose if I delay my AoE until AFTER I've attacked with Assassin's Strike and half the people clutching at their heads? The 60% chance for a critical hit? I can live with that.

So why not just attack with something that fills up one level of Assassin's Focus? Because one level of it doesn't mean jack squat, and it's incredibly easy to achieve, anyway. For Dual Blades, Sweeping Strike and One Thousand Cuts have a 100% chance to give an Assassin's Focus buff and Vengeful Strike has a 90% chance. Big deal. And again - why would I waste my hide on one level of Assassin's Focus only to deliver a weaker Focus Critical later when when I can take out a dangerous target instantly AND STILL get a Focus critical later?

Please, be a little bit more conservative with charges of hypocrisy.

Or it could be that you have a one-track mind which cannot accept more than one strategy being used by a single player. No, players must either only use Assassin's Strike from Hide or never use Assassin's Strike from Hide, and if they do both, they're hypocrites. What you continuously fail to realise is what this change is addressing, and it's not that Assassin's Strike from hide has a bad effect. What it's addressing is what a Stalker does when he CAN'T use Assassin's Strike from Hide. Your old suggestion of making Assassin's Strike from Hide faster or more damaging does not fix the problem, because it does not fix the problem of attaining Hide, which is not fixable lest you make either Hide or Placate overpowered, and the power still remains interruptible.

What I find ironic is you used to be the guy who would constantly argue that Stalkers shouldn't try to play like in a Splinter Cell game, constantly trying to rehide and hope for more Hidden Criticals, and should instead stand and fight like their AT permitted. It's strange that I have to be the guy to remind you that no change to the Hidden Assassination Critical mechanic or circumstances can ever change one single, very simple fact - Stalkers spend most of their fights outside of Hide. It doesn't matter what you do to Hidden Assassin's Strike because that's only going to matter once or twice per fight. What they did was the smart solution. What they did was relaise that Stalkers, as originally designed, were garbage and essentially broken within a game system which does not permit them to hide and stay hidden. You insist that they should have simply "fixed" Stalker hiding, completely ignoring that what breaks it is core to the game's AI and combat system. "Stealth" does not exist in combat, and the only reason Placate even works is because it exploits an outright cheat, and one that is incredibly dangerous if used with any consistency. The real failure of Stalkers was that they were an attempt at a character type that could simply never work within this system.

Your argument is, essentially, the same one we kept hearing about Defiance 2.0 after it came out, about how it changed the AT and how that's not what Blasters should be like and how this is a change for the unskilled player and so forth. The bottom line is that the AT is MUCH stronger now especially offensively. It may no longer play precisely how you'd want it to play, but it plays provably better, and it plays in a way that's uniquely its own. You may not see it, but I do, and I couldn't be happier with the change. This isn't an issue that you're going to be able to ruin for me.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

For some reason this stuck in my head:

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

From the many, MANY arguments we've had on the subject, I don't believe Leo has a chip on his shoulder so much as he has a very specific vision of what he wants Stalkers to be. It's a lot like what I used to have for Blasters once upon a time, until I learned to let it go. And to be honest, I don't really have a problem with alternate interpretations of what an AT should stand for. Specifically, he has a very strong opinion on the usefulness of AoEs out of hide and their 60% chance to score Hidden criticals.

However, I feel that this was a direct and very necessary change to Stalkers, and I feel it made them not just stronger numerically, but also significantly more fun to play. As I said in my original post, they don't strike me as playing like Scrappers at all. I still make extensive use of Hide, I still make extensive use of Placate and the Assassination Criticals, exactly like I did before. That part hasn't changed because that part wasn't broken. It's what Stalkers did when NOT hidden that was the sore spot, and that's the area the fix has targeted.

I guess the fear is that out-of-hide combat now sucks so little that in-hide combat will become neglected. And it will, if you're cynical. But really, in-Hide combat is still superior to out-of-hide Combat and the surprise attack of an Assassin's Strike is still a very powerful tool. There's no reason to not use it if you're already hidden at the start of the fight. Unlike Blaster Snipes that can only pump out 2.72 scale damage for their 4+ second activation time, Assassination Criticals can pump out 9.0 scale damage for their 2-3 second animation times. That, to me, is still a win.

The bottom line, really, is that Stalkers are better and more fun now than they have ever been since they came out in I6. Whether it's the precise kind of fun everyone was expecting, I can't say, but in no way, under no spin, can they be claimed to have become worse.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Actually it sounds like once again the devs said something was going to take more time and resources than they had available so it wasn't going to be done, and then later time and resources became available and the devs decided to revisit it. I doubt that datamining had anything to do with the Stalker changes. I think its simply the case that Castle's priorities and the resources available to him were different than Black Scorpion's priorities and the resources available to him.

Elec Armor. It works pretty well with Kin Melee, since the -damage from the primary and the damage resist of the secondary stack with each other to make it more durable. Also it can easily be IOed out for soft-capped defenses (though I haven't done so, due to the expensiveness of doing so). Probably the bigger thing to set it apart from other sets is Lightning Reflexes, which I believe the only set that has an equivalent is Super Reflexes. A +20% global recharge is nice.

Huh, just realized with the changes Elec Armor having problems staying hidden doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things anymore as after an Alpha Hide/Rehide is less important.

Hows the survivability feel on your /Elec?

Energy Aura also has the Recharge bonus.

That's part of what makes me smile, as well. Ganking one person at a time has always worked, and it has always worked just fine, but what killed my enjoyment and fast was that anything ASIDE from ganking one person at a time felt underpowered and lacking. Now, Stalkers can gank one person and then keep on fighting without feeling like they're fighting at a disadvantage. Not only has this made 90% of the AT's gameplay considerably less disappointing, but it has made the ganking process more fun, too, just because the entire AT is better and more welcoming for it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Shouldn't you be busy with school work since you can't post in the RP thread? I mean, a brain-dead post there is about as good as a brain-dead post here, amirite?

If you build a Scrapper with aggro management tools and focus on mitigation, yes you can make a Scrapper into an inferior Tanker.

And if you build a Tanker focused on purely damage such as a solo build, you can make a Tanker that does good damage but most likely not as good as a damage focused Scrapper.

But then none of that is relevant to the subject at hand, now is it? Stalkers were altered to enhance their DPS performance. Scrappers fill the exact same role. All you have to do is sum up what the changes did and it shouldn't be too difficult to connect the dots even if you're brain dead.

I'm not even going to bother with a point by point commentary on that rant. Because you're tempered, it'd only add fuel and make it even more difficult for you to understand the changes.


Note: Do not be mistaken. I haven't nor ever said the new changes to stalkers make them worse or did not improve them.

Soliloquy: When hearing about the changes initially, I was sure it'd be too powerful outright to give AS a 1sec uninterruptible critical hit 100% of the time by just fulfilling 3 attacks. That'd be rather ridiculous and would near unhidden AS very close to hidden AS. Requiring more hits or simply making it not a guarantee would help fulfill balance of the power. A chance for building Assassin's Focus was another option, but how they implemented it was, again, backwards. They issued guaranteed focus for harder hitting (and by definition, longer recharging) attacks. If it had used the smaller, weaker ones, opening with the tier 9 wouldn't put you so close to 3 stacks and you'd have to throw out 3 weak hits to set the foe up. But opening with hard hitters lopsides the damage in favor of non-hidden AS since it's faster, safer, and you get additional effects from your attack. It never was that hidden-AS was 'bad', but unhidden-AS is better...markedly better if the high powered attack used is also good. Using hidden AS is only favorable in low lvls (when you don't have other high powered attacks), if the target has enough HP to absorb the full attack and if you do not mind lower DPS for the bonus of Demoralize...which, itself isn't amazing but helps.

Collary: Assassin's Strike was never meant to be used in combat unless proper measures were taken. That these changes addresses a problem that only existed when you forced it on yourself is tangential. Yes, it allows you to use AS without hide easily which addresses the problem of trying to use it improperly...but the proposition I made also makes it easier to use since it'd not only be *the* attack from hide to use, but also *the* attack to use with placate, increasing your chances for your inherent, Assassination, to affect the power.

Tangent: I'm certain Stalkers have an entire primary besides Assassin's Strike. That easily solves what a Stalker should do after using Assassin's Strike.

Reformation: I'm certain, since mechanics have been added along with Stalker's improvements, something about regaining Hidden status to more readily take advantage of the improved hidden AS and bonus Demoralize could have been made.

And on an objective aside, the changes improve some sets more than others. Not concerning AoE vs ST, but in the overall utility and effectiveness of the AT. It doesn't take a fortune teller to see *more* buffs on top of more fluff to neutralize this. All in all, it leads down the slippery slope of power creep.

Also, this:

"What I find ironic is you used to be the guy who would constantly argue that Stalkers shouldn't try to play like in a Splinter Cell game, constantly trying to rehide and hope for more Hidden Criticals, and should instead stand and fight like their AT permitted. "

You can cut the back patting, memory lane BS. Because, if you bothered to listen to me then, why did you stop listening to me now? And I know you're not listening because the entire hue of your posts colors that you barely even read or comprehend what I type. Your whole post seems like it it took a wrong turn before you even got out of the driveway.

And please stop trying to put words in my mouth. Just from that first paragraph, I can tell you don't know what view I have on the game. And if you don't know then don't speak up for me please.

And if I want to have a chip on my shoulder, you damned well better believe I will do so. But then I'm not one to sit around bitter about it, no. In fact, I'm doing the opposite. I'm going to prove to you and everyone, that what Stalkers are aren't 'Stalkers' any more than a Scrapper with maneuvers and Aid Other is a Defender. Rationalize how you *think* it makes fights 'different', 'more engaging', etc, than a Scrapper...it's still buttons 3,2,1 > AS, so formulaic I will prove its effects in-game, right to your face.

What server do you play on, Sam? Infinity? Pinnacle? I'll buy paragon points (I have yet to do that) to get a server transfer and hop on some teams with you. I can even roll up a new alt if you so fancy.


I only ask you not to bother saying this anymore. At least an 'in my opinion' added on there otherwise explain that you're effectively getting less DPS from it.

The problem is that hidden AS was all but worthless in most team contexts. It also wasn't all that much better DPA than just using a good attack chain when beating on something that actually lived long enough for AS to be used in situations where DPS was relevant, like AVs.

Using the rest of the primary to fight after a hidden AS was certainly how I played mine. I always boggled at people who thought a Stalker should wait around to Placate and/or AS again. On that note, I find it interesting that you object to them playing like Scrappers when you point out that you should have mostly played them like a Scrapper after their initial AS.

Unfortunately, "scrapping" after AS was at best around break-even with Scrappers and Brutes for damage contribution only under fairly specific circumstances that got you a lot of critical hits. For people who cared about such things, there was no compelling answer to the question of "why not invite some other character?" Scrappers and Brutes both probably would do more damage with their primaries and both were more durable. The closest thing to a Stalker in "value" to add to team was probably a Blaster. While certainly more fragile, a Blaster had higher damage mods and probably (though not always) more AoE potential. A buffed Blaster would almost certainly bring more to the table than a buffed Stalker, so if you had the buffs, why not add the Blaster?

I think the new change was the right kind of change. It answers one of the more direct problems Stalkers had in seeming valuable to team play. There are other issues still, this one buff was so strong, I think it helps overshadow them to some extent.

And yes, this change represents power creep. But when the power increase in question only puts Stalkers in the same ball-park as other ATs, I don't think that's all that significant. (Note that I object strenuously to calls for other ATs to receive buffs simply because Stalkers compare more favorably to them. That would lead to overall power creep that I think is uncalled for.)