Can heroes get a win?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-03-05 24:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Golden Girl is right. Paragon City is the equivalent of our New York. It doesn't replace New York City, but it supplants it, which is what she really meant. Some city exists where New York exists in the real world, but it's not necessarily clear whether it is called New York or called Empire City. (New York state is the Empire State and there appears to be at least one reference someplace to an Empire City, though it's not directly correlated with New York City.)|
Originally Posted by SlackTech
I would love to see you support that somehow (with evidence, not just your opinion). If you can, I will change my signature immediately.
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Presumably the United Nations is still based in New York or its equivalent, given that it's not in Paragon City that we know of. Then again, in a post-Rikti world, the UN could be based out of Poughkeepsie or Geneva for all we know.
The evidence you ask for is difficult or perhaps impossible to find nowadays, given that it comes from dev postings that vanish with board prunings. The best you'll find is excerpts like this:
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Originally Posted by http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/City_of_Heroes
Paragon City takes the place of Providence, Rhode Island, in the CoH universe. It takes the place of New York City as America's most famous city, and perhaps in all the world.
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Suffice to say that while I can't produce a dev quote for you, I can verify that it has been stated in the past more or less as the wiki entry above states it (which is why that wiki entry states what it states).
****EDIT****
Here we go: We do know that New York at least exists in some fashion:
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Originally Posted by Manticore's Canon Fodder Thread
Question: How successful were the twenty-six* other Rikti invasion fleets compared to the Paragon City Fleet, and could you name a few locations the Rikti invaded besides Paragon City?
Answer: The other Rikti invasion fleets were causing massive damage and loss of life before Dr. Science’s plan (and Omega Team’s sacrifice) caused a full scale retreat. The destruction of the U.N. buildings in New York and Geneva were only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the other fleets activities. Rome, Kuala Lumpur, Beijing, Moscow, Mumbai, Mexico City, Tokyo, Cairo and Sao Paulo were other Rikti targets. |
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Frankly, so is comparing a comicbook city (to use the language of the conversation) to a 'real world' city. Paragon City is what it is, much as Gotham is what it is - I do not believe they can be compared to 'real world' cities, except in terms such as has been quoted from lore (i.e. 'largest population'). These demographic elements are easily comparable, but to say that Paragon occupies the same status or cultural position in Primal Earth as London, NY, Tokyo, et al does in our world is, in my view, problematic in that it is prone to subjectivity.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The tech they had when developing the game might not have been able to match what they imagined the city to be like
 Also, in a comicbook world, trying to work out how insurance would work is kinda silly  |
I think this is why DC took the route they did (but only the staff of this company know for certain) - it's much easier to give the city its own character when not placing the characters in real world cities, and rarely (if ever) mentioning them. I would venture this is why Cryptic did a similar thing.
Anyway, sorry Tony for my part in possibly throwing this thread off-course...
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Good catch!! It looks like Cryptic really did take the 'DC Approach' with the game world, which is understandable in the circumstances, I guess
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Golden Girl is right. Paragon City is the equivalent of our New York. It doesn't replace New York City, but it supplants it, which is what she really meant. Some city exists where New York exists in the real world, but it's not necessarily clear whether it is called New York or called Empire City. (New York state is the Empire State and there appears to be at least one reference someplace to an Empire City, though it's not directly correlated with New York City.)
Presumably the United Nations is still based in New York or its equivalent, given that it's not in Paragon City that we know of. Then again, in a post-Rikti world, the UN could be based out of Poughkeepsie or Geneva for all we know. The evidence you ask for is difficult or perhaps impossible to find nowadays, given that it comes from dev postings that vanish with board prunings. The best you'll find is excerpts like this: If you're like me, you won't really accept an unattributed wiki entry as "evidence" but that's as strong as most story-related evidence gets for this game. Don't get me started on that topic. Suffice to say that while I can't produce a dev quote for you, I can verify that it has been stated in the past more or less as the wiki entry above states it (which is why that wiki entry states what it states). ****EDIT**** Here we go: We do know that New York at least exists in some fashion: |
There is still a New York city in the CoH universe!
Much like the DC universe, CoH's Earth is a bit altered from real life Earth. Basically having extra cities as well as the RL cities.
Paragon City has also become the equivalent to New York City, in that it's where a lot of the action takes place.
For Marvel comics that's New York City itself.
For DC, the equivalent is Metropolis, though Gotham seems to get quite a bit of attention imo. I'd say that's more of a difference between power levels though.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I'd have nothing against some hero map revamping, but I would want a few new islands to pop for Villains too. It's not a bad idea to keep things 'even' I suppose. Villains gets a few more maps, and more strike forces, so they can stop using Ice Mistral so much for WST, and Heroes gets some hazards zones returned to city zones with some new content as well.
I would guess the next SSA will probably be hero oriented since Who Will Die is clearly the Villain arc, not a wholly satisfying arc, but it's been pretty clear it favors Villains. So maybe they'll have some world changing hero updates in mind for that?
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For the record, this is why I disputed GG's comment, and why I'm not arguing Brand's - the former didn't give a basis for the analogy, while the latter did (i.e. 'action').|
Originally Posted by BrandX
There is still a New York city in the CoH universe!
Paragon City has also become the equivalent to New York City, in that it's where a lot of the action takes place. |
To argue this would be (a) severely off-topic and (b) long-winded, as people all over the world may have different opinions on 'where the action is' (e.g. Brits might say London, Japanese might say Tokyo). It's clear that in-game (hero), Paragon is where the action is (not much other option, really...)
I dunno about you all, but tomorrow I get to start on the road to take down a Dark God that's been a pretty interesting part of the lore for quite a while now and feel like a complete badass while doing it. Maybe it's me, but I call that a pretty big 'win', regardless of States and Psych biting it outside of our control.
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This is why the heroes won't get a win. Crises means co-op content. Giving the heroes a win means either coming up with an equivalent villain-side change. Since there's not enough redside players to justify a great deal of redside content, it's easier to do crises and listen to the storm of "villains are being forced to be heroes" than the cries of "it's not fair blueside gets something new and we don't".
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
So villains have been getting crapped on since I6, and now that the heroes take one good hit everyone's up in arms?
Disparity much? |
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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Now as I see it, I always kind of figured that Villains never got any solo attention because then the blueside players would complain that redside got something and they didn't. Redside doesn't deserve new content solely for it because the population is low, but how can we help the population if all the new content is just co-op stuff? It's a cruel cycle. Redside needs to have some content tossed its way, more strike forces, more maps, maybe if the gap between the sides is filled in a little it would help the population redside. How much time and resources went to Praetoria? Can Villains get a little of that attention as well? And by all means send some heroes way too, like I said, give villains some new maps, and revamp heroes maps at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini
This is why the heroes won't get a win. Crises means co-op content. Giving the heroes a win means either coming up with an equivalent villain-side change. Since there's not enough redside players to justify a great deal of redside content, it's easier to do crises and listen to the storm of "villains are being forced to be heroes" than the cries of "it's not fair blueside gets something new and we don't".
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You could say that about every single niche activity in the game, and, unfortunately, redside is just a niche activity. I don't believe new content will change that because most people didn't give up on redside, they either never played it or never got much past the first zone. The devs killed redside when they made the decision to create an evil, corrupt, villain-run island chain as the setting. Not much fun, or point, playing a villain when most of your schemes are against other bad guys.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
Now as I see it, I always kind of figured that Villains never got any solo attention because then the blueside players would complain that redside got something and they didn't. Redside doesn't deserve new content solely for it because the population is low, but how can we help the population if all the new content is just co-op stuff? It's a cruel cycle. Redside needs to have some content tossed its way, more strike forces, more maps, maybe if the gap between the sides is filled in a little it would help the population redside. How much time and resources went to Praetoria? Can Villains get a little of that attention as well? And by all means send some heroes way too, like I said, give villains some new maps, and revamp heroes maps at the same time.
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@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
A lot of you are completely missing my point. I'm not asking for special content in addition to what we've been getting. I'm not asking that the devs spend more time on hero-side content than villain-side content. All I'm asking that is instead of the content being focused on how things are going yet further to hell in a handbasket, a little bit of it be focused on how things aren't. Some things are even getting a little better.
There is precedent for this. Really, the first five issues didn't have any "The World Is Getting Destroyed!™" tone to it. For example, in Issue 3, sure, we had some giant monsters show up in some zones, but hey, we also had helpful aliens (Kheldians) show up, woot! And heroes got some cool new epic power pools, woot! The arrival of the Council was mitigated a bit by the Fifth Column getting their a**es kicked. Even issue 6--the launch of City of Villains--was based on the premise that the Rogue Isles have actually been there all along, presumably always the nuisance that it is today, but we're just now getting to explore it. Ever since, I don't know, Issue 10 ("Invasion!") or so, though, it just seems that Paragon City has taken beating after beating without anything significant to prove that the heroes can actually make a positive difference in the city.
That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Some good mixed in with the bad. And when I say "good," I'm not talking about the mechanics or gameplay. I don't dispute that I'm looking forward to all of this fun world-ending stuff in the pipeline. I'm talking about "good" in the sense that Maggie Greene has something to report on besides, "RUN FOR YOUR LIVES BECAUSE YET MORE S*** IS HITTING THE FAN!"
It just boggles my mind why anyone would willingly actually live in Paragon City these days. I've always implicitly believed it was because the citizens believed in the heroes' ability to win against the forces of evil in the end. But the way things have been going lately with heroes winning little skirmishes but ultimately sucking at the war, how long will it inevitably be before the whole damn city is wiped off the face of the planet?
I'm just saying, writers, give the people some hope, some reason to believe in the heroes!
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
The biggest problem Paragon has though is the heroes. Local street thugs are turning to the Occult because if they didn't they wouldn't stand a chance against the supers. Aliens assault the place because it's one of the first places they need to neutralize due to the high concentration of supers. Dark gods drive people into spirals of despair so that it can eat them and gain the power to consume the world. In all media, Superheroes only make things worse and attract more trouble to places.
I think the reason people don't leave Paragon is because they probably think the Supers should leave since they're the problem. In the comics people were happiest in Paragon when Recluse depowered all the supers. It's kind of that ugly little detail behind any super hero media, the city will keep a hero around because you can't unopen that can of worms. Now you have to have someone to stop the constant world endangering menaces that show up, whether you like it or not. It's job security for heroes, that's a win right?
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I didn't miss your point, Tony, I just don't see how it can be done with current (lacklustre) storylines in the game. The way I see it, the devs have painted themselves into a corner, and are jammed right in there with each issue they release.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
A lot of you are completely missing my point. I'm not asking for special content in addition to what we've been getting. I'm not asking that the devs spend more time on hero-side content than villain-side content. All I'm asking that is instead of the content being focused on how things are going yet further to hell in a handbasket, a little bit of it be focused on how things aren't. Some things are even getting a little better.
There is precedent for this. Really, the first five issues didn't have any "The World Is Getting Destroyed!" tone to it. For example, in Issue 3, sure, we had some giant monsters show up in some zones, but hey, we also had helpful aliens (Kheldians) show up, woot! And heroes got some cool new epic power pools, woot! The arrival of the Council was mitigated a bit by the Fifth Column getting their a**es kicked. Even issue 6--the launch of City of Villains--was based on the premise that the Rogue Isles have actually been there all along, presumably always the nuisance that it is today, but we're just now getting to explore it. Ever since, I don't know, Issue 10 ("Invasion!") or so, though, it just seems that Paragon City has taken beating after beating without anything significant to prove that the heroes can actually make a positive difference in the city. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Some good mixed in with the bad. And when I say "good," I'm not talking about the mechanics or gameplay. I don't dispute that I'm looking forward to all of this fun world-ending stuff in the pipeline. I'm talking about "good" in the sense that Maggie Greene has something to report on besides, "RUN FOR YOUR LIVES BECAUSE YET MORE S*** IS HITTING THE FAN!" It just boggles my mind why anyone would willingly actually live in Paragon City these days. I've always implicitly believed it was because the citizens believed in the heroes' ability to win against the forces of evil in the end. But the way things have been going lately with heroes winning little skirmishes but ultimately sucking at the war, how long will it inevitably be before the whole damn city is wiped off the face of the planet? I'm just saying, writers, give the people some hope, some reason to believe in the heroes! |
I believe this has been the case since the RWZ went co-op, and we had to band together 'for the greater good'. After this, we got to time travel to stop the Fifth Column 'to save the world' again (admittedly, this has zero effect on either hero or villain 'pure' content). Then we had the threat from Praetoria. Now, we have the continuation of this in Dark Astoria. Soon, we have the 'Coming Storm'....
The threats are a lazy way to create co-op content to get the most bang-per-buck and appease us (apparently whiney) villain players. Unfortunately, it has the side-effect of creating so many threats that poor Paragon's villain community (NPCs, obviously) are having a field day due to all the heroes being in ancient Rome, the RWZ, Praetoria or, soon, DA. Why would the situation be getting better??
Oh, and States died, too...
I would say the new phasing tech they have added to atlas is a step towards allowing you to get a "win"
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Well, part of the answer is simply that this is an mmo, and an older style one too, in everquest the giant rats coudl keep popping up long after the players should have eradicated any sustainable breeding population of them, but it worked because it was a video game, in coh lore apparently a significant portion of disaffected young people are either members of a street gang, drug addicts that turned into monsters, posessed or part of a hostile group of elemental mutants, Its a mmo standard but it gets silly once you have cleared out hellions for a few hours street sweeping...even if we accept a porous legal system, how the heck are there so many? the answer is, its a video game, and limits exist in presentation, maybe phasing will help later on, it did make atlas a bit more sane (you can actually clean areas up now) but overall, part of the fault is the medium, an mmo has to keep enemies spawning for other players so you fight an unending battle against inexhaustable numbers. |
Originally Posted by TonyV
A lot of you are completely missing my point. I'm not asking for special content in addition to what we've been getting. I'm not asking that the devs spend more time on hero-side content than villain-side content. All I'm asking that is instead of the content being focused on how things are going yet further to hell in a handbasket, a little bit of it be focused on how things aren't. Some things are even getting a little better.
There is precedent for this. Really, the first five issues didn't have any "The World Is Getting Destroyed!" tone to it. For example, in Issue 3, sure, we had some giant monsters show up in some zones, but hey, we also had helpful aliens (Kheldians) show up, woot! And heroes got some cool new epic power pools, woot! The arrival of the Council was mitigated a bit by the Fifth Column getting their a**es kicked. Even issue 6--the launch of City of Villains--was based on the premise that the Rogue Isles have actually been there all along, presumably always the nuisance that it is today, but we're just now getting to explore it. Ever since, I don't know, Issue 10 ("Invasion!") or so, though, it just seems that Paragon City has taken beating after beating without anything significant to prove that the heroes can actually make a positive difference in the city. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Some good mixed in with the bad. And when I say "good," I'm not talking about the mechanics or gameplay. I don't dispute that I'm looking forward to all of this fun world-ending stuff in the pipeline. I'm talking about "good" in the sense that Maggie Greene has something to report on besides, "RUN FOR YOUR LIVES BECAUSE YET MORE S*** IS HITTING THE FAN!" It just boggles my mind why anyone would willingly actually live in Paragon City these days. I've always implicitly believed it was because the citizens believed in the heroes' ability to win against the forces of evil in the end. But the way things have been going lately with heroes winning little skirmishes but ultimately sucking at the war, how long will it inevitably be before the whole damn city is wiped off the face of the planet? I'm just saying, writers, give the people some hope, some reason to believe in the heroes! |
There is a second problem though, and that is how stories tend to flow here, there is a large conflict that affects out heroes, we fight through it and eventually overcome it. that works from an individual narriative point of view, if you stick with that you beat(likely solo if you chose) SPOILERS..
the leader of the rikti, countess crew, vanessa devore, the envoy of shadows, lots of plauseable copies of nemesis, some of malta's leaders, the rogues gallery of possible supers from mayhems/tips, if you get lucky in a safeguard, one of recluse's big four or even himself, in ssa4 all of recluse's b team and one of his lieutenants, just about everyone in the beginning of mender remiels arc, and sorta-incarnate, a slightly sedated hero 1, and coming tomorrow, a major divine of death. we win..a lot, and if i had added tf, raid or large group content, it gets nuttier, but from a story perspective, mmos stink at reflecting victories, they only can reflect the conflict, even after befriending the cabal, they still take pot-shots at me, the supposedly crippled legacy of war (after the rwz story) still can field a force to meet liberty server's mothership raids every few days, despite insane casualties that would clear out entire country's militaries.
we dont see the bright new day, we just have to take the mission text saying how great we did. Again, i blame mmos for being a horrible game type more than i blame coh's narrative, it simply strains against the constraints of the medium.
To me the answer is as simple as that the focus of the game's arcs, as I read it, is to progress our characters. Paragon City is not the focus.
By time our (hero) character reaches 50 they have seemingly dealt significant blows to almost all villain groups. [Meanwhile by time our (villain) lackey reaches 50 they have seemingly had no effect other than to keep Recluse himself from trying to kill us.]
Now at 50 we continue to grow our power as Incarnates to deal with some even greater threat that only the greatest heroes [and the villains who have to do heroic stuff] will be able to combat.
So as to what the civilians see changing, it should only be the major zone changes: Galaxy City destroyed, Atlas Park built up, Faultline coming back and the Hollows getting slightly changed. [and not one villain zone affected]
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
If someone else has pointed this out I missed it, but what I would call attention to is the mid-level arcs they've been adding. I haven't played the issue 22 ones yet, but just the Nance-to-Cooling ones feature some fairly heroic stuff. "But your praetorian/primal self dies," you mournfully opine. Sure, in like the most heroic possible way, and right after you take down a fairly serious villain. Then, a whole other arc in which you totally save the city. It's not all upbeat all the time but overall I find it resoundingly positive. I'd say the same of Sutter, too: Sure, Skyway City gets totally exploded, but the important thing to consider is that Skyway City is dumb and nobody likes it. You go on to trounce all of the perpetrators with your trouncing stick, again saving the city. How cool is that? Pretty dang cool!
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Chicago if you're a WoD fan.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
In the CoHverse, Paragon City = New York
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http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Safe? I'd settle for getting rid of the impenetrable woods. Raze the Maze!
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Originally Posted by Zortel
A win that I'd like to see, and would suggest at the Player Summit if I was there, would be for heroes to take Perez Park for the Galaxy City refugees, driving the gangs out of Hells Highway and such, and starting to make the park itself safe.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Taking the war walls down around Perez Park, giving it a spruce-up, and joining it up with a city zone would definitely feel like a "win".
Global name: @k26dp
As someone who was playing villains long before villains were cool, i.e. before VEATs, I have zero sympathy and can only say "man up." I'm female, and I still say "man up."
What happens in and around Paragon is very much in keeping with the continual crises which beset any superhero comic locale - just kinder and gentler. Hell, in the Marvel U. NYC is almost flattened every other week.
Want a real crisis? I remember the time a lust-beset Hulk all but flattened NYC out of sheer angst and Captain America had to take him out [non-lethally, altho Cap was plenty annoyed]; I think that was in Ultimate Spider-man back in the day. Frankly I dont see how people in the Marvel U. even dare to rent apartment space in NYC. Paragon is practically a day-care center in comparison. Paragon heroes are on Easy Street. Don't knock it.
So Devs and players hate villains...Well as a villain i say job done on that part. i didnt become a villain to be liked n loved. But to be hated.
While for heroes it be nice to have a big win on their behalf, Villains Needs a massive win over good and have needed it for a while now. Past issues its all be Co-Op to stop a bad guy from ruling, which is basically villains stopping evil, the same evil their trying to create...
Heroes need a big win, Villains need a big win.. never ending cycle of wins.
Yes, Stateman is dead- but as this is a comic, i wouldnt be surprised if he returns one day.
For heroes, what? you want a main villain to die 2? (who might just return as well )
- we don't have enough main stream villains to loose one (which is more reason why villains need evil love )
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So in other words, Captain America won and the incident was resolved? The Hulk isn't still out there years later stomping down New York City WHILE every other bad thing that's ever happened in the Marvel Universe is simultaneously happening?
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Want a real crisis? I remember the time a lust-beset Hulk all but flattened NYC out of sheer angst and Captain America had to take him out [non-lethally, altho Cap was plenty annoyed]; I think that was in Ultimate Spider-man back in the day.
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We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
I still disagree with GG's analogy (because, frankly, NY isn't the largest city on earth in terms of population - http://geography.about.com/od/urbane...omerations.htm - and NY is always depicted as fast, fashionable, hip and full of culture and opportunity - Paragon doesn't feel that way to me on the rare occasion I visit)
However, I call BS on the analogy used by GG and the concepts expressed in lore, as the in-game world doesn't seem to make this claim seem plausible (e.g. number of people on streets, number of buildings, etc).
I also don't understand why the '...the largest city in the US' would be the one that's attacked consistently by threats and seems to have a ridiculously high crime rate. Yes, this would logically attract more heroes and boost the population, but it would severely hinder economic and social growth.
For example, I wouldn't open a retail establishment when I know in the first day thugs are going to loot it. I realise I would have heroes to help, but insurance companies would find it hard to calculate risk levels in this crazy world. Setting premiums and getting insurance coverage would be a nightmare and I'd spend most of my time filling out paperwork and confirming that the truck my stock is in is going to get to me. This sort of thing tends to make people think twice about setting up shop somewhere.
Summary - this is obviously lore, but it's preposterous
Also, in a comicbook world, trying to work out how insurance would work is kinda silly
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork