Can heroes get a win?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-03-05 24:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by HardRider
So Devs and players hate villains...Well as a villain i say job done on that part. i didnt become a villain to be liked n loved. But to be hated.
While for heroes it be nice to have a big win on their behalf, Villains Needs a massive win over good and have needed it for a while now. Past issues its all be Co-Op to stop a bad guy from ruling, which is basically villains stopping evil, the same evil their trying to create... Heroes need a big win, Villains need a big win.. never ending cycle of wins. Yes, Stateman is dead- but as this is a comic, i wouldnt be surprised if he returns one day. For heroes, what? you want a main villain to die 2? (who might just return as well  )- we don't have enough main stream villains to loose one (which is more reason why villains need evil love )  |
And to support this, we turn to the official announcement of i22 by the company;
"Issue 22: Death Incarnate is now Live!
The fog has cleared from the streets of Dark Astoria, revealing a horror so terrifying that even the restless spirits dare not roam its streets. Heroes and Villains alike seek to master the powers of darkness that rest with the Demon God, Mot. Experience the all new revamped Dark Astoria, the new Dilemma Diabolique Incarnate Trial and the all new, free for VIPs Power Set: Darkness Control! Issue 22: Death Incarnate has arrived to your favorite super heroic MMORPG, City of Heroes Freedom!
<removed link to video>
With tons of new content, including the all new mid level trial Drowning in Blood, new Powersets, the new Olympian Guard costume set (free for all VIP subscribers), new low level missions found in Steel Canyon, and the much anticipated solo Incarnate Path in the newly revamped Dark Astoria, Issue 22: Death Incarnate is a great time for you to take to the skies in City of Heroes Freedom! So log in today and experience what's new to Paragon City!"
Source - http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/n...s_now_live.php
I do not apologise for posting this, even though I'm just going to get the 'whiney villain player' posts about it.
After this piece of spin from Paragon Studios, I fail to see that heroes are getting treated worse than villains - it is clearer with each passing day that the focus of Paragon Studios is on heroes. It's just a problem for the devs that there is villain content and villain players still around, and that they have to do something with that. I don't feel as though too many tears would be shed by more than a few players and Paragon bean-counters if they wiped out villain zones and merged us with Paragon City (and with the phasing tech, that could happen).
Back on Tony's track, I accept that SSA1 has, to date, been a huge blow to the Freedom Phalanax but, really, this may be part of some much bigger arc that will reveal a massive 'brand new day' and a 'new golden age' for villains (thinking Luthor as President, or Osborn as head of Shield/Sword). I have faith that it'll all turn out okay for our signature band of Avengers/JLA/JSA (when, I don't know).
What I'm trying to say is I do not believe that hero players' experience of the game world has been adversely effected by these 'dark' storylines (unless you're RP'ing, I guess), such as the changed Dark Astoria (even Tony would have to admit this zone was, pardon the pun, dead before i22).
I realise that I will be challenged on this, as it's a matter of perspective, but I'm focussing on the non-RP 'mechanics' of the world (e.g. travel, access to zones, power selection, access to auction houses, etc). While there is some lore to rationalise the conversion of DA to a co-op zone, it's basically 'the done thing' whenever new major content (such as a zone) is released as it's the best bang for the studio's buck (and for whatever reason, a villain zone, such as Monster Island, would never be acceptable because some hero players I've spoken to won't enter 'villain zones' any under circumstances).
In this case, though, I think it was just the good fortune of having a barely used zone with an existing story that was easy to work into a Praetorian storyline to justify the 'solo incarnate path' that some players have been screaming for. To me, it was a logical choice for the devs to make (rather than the alternatives of creating a new zone or using a Praetorian zone).
Frankly, if the death of States and the myriad of other threats (which, obviously, do hit villain zones and players, too) results in revised zones for heroes, I'm all for it. I don't even care if the next SSA leads to the death of Recluse if it would mean that the Rogue Isles/villain zones and content got some attention and some space in conversations and media releases (hell, ANY public documents that aren't patch notes would be nice).
Edit - any blue text is either 'Paragon' (as in the city) or an exclusive hero zone or content
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GG has hit the nail on the head. Be thankful that Paragon only gets destroyed in instanced missions, and not in the 'real' zone maps.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
In an MMO, yes - events/stroies are always there for new players to experience, or for other players to replay, just like rereading a comic.
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Now that I think about it, this could be used for the stagnation of Faultline's rebuilding - 'we keep rebuilding, but Arachnos and other villain groups keep destroying!'
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I think that Perez Park could be quite high on the list of zones they might repurpose - there's an imbalance between the number of low level and high level zones, and Perez kinda overlaps the Hollows - redoing Perez as a 30-40 zone would make sense.
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Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
Taking the war walls down around Perez Park, giving it a spruce-up, and joining it up with a city zone would definitely feel like a "win".
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And these things can still be there, via a system such as the "Echo" instances. Want to get a team together to run an old Hamidon raid (for example) after canon has resolved that issue? No worries, everyone meet up in Ouroboros, click the crystal, and have at it.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
In an MMO, yes - events/stroies are always there for new players to experience, or for other players to replay, just like rereading a comic.
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I just don't buy the "so new players can experience almost decade-old content" excuse of justifying basically "no significant positive progress [with "positive" possibly being defined as "evil" in the case of villains] can ever be made in the game."
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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And that's a solution to the problem of villains getting crapped on how, exactly? I thought the point of bringing up problems of villain presentation was to fix villain presentation, not to make hero presentation equally as crap. And, by the way, for all the "victories" people keep citing as villains having won, not one is an actual victory for the actual player villain involved in it. It's a victory for some NPC's grand scheme that you get to mooch off of. Dean McArthur and Vincent Ross are pretty much the closest the game's come to giving villains a clear win, and it is, consequently, the most satisfying I've left a story arc since Time After Time.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
So villains have been getting crapped on since I6, and now that the heroes take one good hit everyone's up in arms?
Disparity much? |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, said, Samuel
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And that's a solution to the problem of villains getting crapped on how, exactly? I thought the point of bringing up problems of villain presentation was to fix villain presentation, not to make hero presentation equally as crap. And, by the way, for all the "victories" people keep citing as villains having won, not one is an actual victory for the actual player villain involved in it. It's a victory for some NPC's grand scheme that you get to mooch off of. Dean McArthur and Vincent Ross are pretty much the closest the game's come to giving villains a clear win, and it is, consequently, the most satisfying I've left a story arc since Time After Time.
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All of the bad things are not happening to Paragon.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
So in other words, Captain America won and the incident was resolved? The Hulk isn't still out there years later stomping down New York City WHILE every other bad thing that's ever happened in the Marvel Universe is simultaneously happening?
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If you talk to Positron and start his TF, then that bad thing is happening. If you don't, it is not.
The only bad things happening to the city at any given moment are the missions you have and any event in the zone you are in.
Paragon City does not have one time point that the whole city is at. Penelope Yin is a kid in Faultline and Tremblor is barely a hero. Get to RWZ and Tremblor has turned into more of a hero. He does not exist simultaneously in Faultline and RWZ.
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No whiney villain player here |
Originally Posted by SlackTech
I do not apologise for posting this, even though I'm just going to get the 'whiney villain player' posts about it. |
- just got a villianous ego 
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| In this case, though, I think it was just the good fortune of having a barely used zone with an existing story that was easy to work into a Praetorian storyline to justify the 'solo incarnate path' that some players have been screaming for. To me, it was a logical choice for the devs to make (rather than the alternatives of creating a new zone or using a Praetorian zone). |
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Frankly, if the death of States and the myriad of other threats (which, obviously, do hit villain zones and players, too) results in revised zones for heroes, I'm all for it. I don't even care if the next SSA leads to the death of Recluse if it would mean that the Rogue Isles/villain zones and content got some attention and some space in conversations and media releases (hell, ANY public documents that aren't patch notes would be nice). |
Which would be awesome for the story evoluation, and would expand what we already got.
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Aren't you counting Faultline, the RWZ, Galaxy City and Dark Astoria? |
Originally Posted by TonyV
And these things can still be there, via a system such as the "Echo" instances. Want to get a team together to run an old Hamidon raid (for example) after canon has resolved that issue? No worries, everyone meet up in Ouroboros, click the crystal, and have at it.
I just don't buy the "so new players can experience almost decade-old content" excuse of justifying basically "no significant positive progress [with "positive" possibly being defined as "evil" in the case of villains] can ever be made in the game." |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The issue was resolved, and then whatever crisis was going to hit Ultimate Marvel Universe did just that, and things went on from there.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
So in other words, Captain America won and the incident was resolved? The Hulk isn't still out there years later stomping down New York City WHILE every other bad thing that's ever happened in the Marvel Universe is simultaneously happening?
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The problem here is that its considerably easier to write and draw a comic book than create an issue's worth of content. This game is finite, and we're lucky we have as much variety as we do - think of it like that.
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That doesn't hold any water. We ARE getting something we didn't have before and Blueside did: a victory.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini
This is why the heroes won't get a win. Crises means co-op content. Giving the heroes a win means either coming up with an equivalent villain-side change. Since there's not enough redside players to justify a great deal of redside content, it's easier to do crises and listen to the storm of "villains are being forced to be heroes" than the cries of "it's not fair blueside gets something new and we don't".
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And now that we have it, everyone over in the good-guy zone is ticked? Please.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And that's a solution to the problem of villains getting crapped on how, exactly? I thought the point of bringing up problems of villain presentation was to fix villain presentation, not to make hero presentation equally as crap. And, by the way, for all the "victories" people keep citing as villains having won, not one is an actual victory for the actual player villain involved in it. It's a victory for some NPC's grand scheme that you get to mooch off of. Dean McArthur and Vincent Ross are pretty much the closest the game's come to giving villains a clear win, and it is, consequently, the most satisfying I've left a story arc since Time After Time.
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For years the villainside content has been bland, constantly offering that your character is just a lackey to the NPCs, and 90% of the time the villain content ends up with being losing (often times to your FREAKING CONTACT) or being told to wait.
Heroes have always had the satisfaction of saving the day, even when they don't get to save ALL of the day.
What bugs me is, now that heroes got a taste of how it felt to play villainside, they all got their undies in a wad and demanded that this never happen again.
I'll ask again: Disparity much?
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Well, villains do get to successfully rob banks quite often?|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
For years the villainside content has been bland, constantly offering that your character is just a lackey to the NPCs, and 90% of the time the villain content ends up with being losing (often times to your FREAKING CONTACT) or being told to wait.
Heroes have always had the satisfaction of saving the day, even when they don't get to save ALL of the day. What bugs me is, now that heroes got a taste of how it felt to play villainside, they all got their undies in a wad and demanded that this never happen again. I'll ask again: Disparity much? |
Yeah... that's still rather lopsided.
There's also the villain morality missions. I thought some of them were pretty interesting. But I think you're right in that that's still not enough.
I think the heroes of Paragon City need to be reminded that if it weren't for all those villains scheming their schemes and doing their dastardly deeds, those heroes would have pretty much nothing at all to do.
Villains: keeping heroes in business!
I think our villains in DA would want to find their own god to wake up and fight against Mot, or try to sic Hamidon on him. Something crazy like that, that no sane hero would even consider because it's on a par with such brilliant plans as defeating global warming by causing a nuclear winter. But a villain or rogue doing hero work would probably not consider the potential consequences of their actions when they're hyperfocused on bringing down an ancient god. Some villains will have a callous disregard for the lives of others, where a hero in the same position would not even consider the same action out of concern for those same innocent lives. So... even if they're doing good, a villain can still do it an evil way!
Then again, you'll have other villains who will want to harness that power for themselves. I haven't gone through all the DA arcs yet (in fact I've only barely started one), but I think maybe that could be addressed in some bigger way. I hope maybe it will be later.
I kind of skipped ahead from the first post but I gotta say this much: The reason many of us are up in arms about heroes losing and villains winning is because it's not OUR villains winning.
It's always some other villain who steals victory from our characters, hero and villain alike.
Did our villains kill Statesman and get his powers? Nope, Darrin Wade did.
Did we kill Sister Psyche and steel her powers? Nope, Darrin Wade did.
Did we get to become Death Incarnate? Nope, Diabolique did.
Did we get back a useful ally who will bring us to a new era of glory? No, Lord Recluse did.
Did we establish a mighty empire that lorded over mankind? Nope, that was Cole.
What villains are left with is the exhaust fumes of victory from other villains and coop trials against them start to make sense if only so that villains can get a real victory or at least deprive the NPCs of the victory they stole from us.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Actually, for realism's sake, the city ought to be devoid of payphones anyway. Thanks to everybody having a cell phone now, I can't even remember the last time I saw a pay phone in the real world.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
But if I have anything to say about it, it will be completely devoid of mailboxes, pay phones, newsstands and fire hydrants.
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Then again, when I walk down the street in my town, I also don't see a steady stream of 1970s land yachts rolling in traffic either...
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Yes, we can have both. Heroes and villains are split into two separate worlds. That may have been a dumb idea at the time (Rick Dakan sure seemed to think so), but that's what they went with. As such, PLAYER villain victories don't have to have anything to do with PLAYER hero victories. This is something I've been trying to drill into people's heads since City of Villains came out. You don't need to pit player villains against player heroes to have a game which revolves around heroes and villains duking it out.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Let's think about this here, Sam. If the villains are winning, and the content is NOT co-op, can the heroes win too? No. Either heroes win, or the villains win. Can't have both.
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The WORST thing that could have happened is to give heroes and villains a shared storyline, and that's precisely what they did. I would have been perfectly happy if villain story arcs went one way and hero story arcs completely another. I would be twice as happy if they never dealt with the same events, either. I can sort of see Diviner Maros and his standalone missions which have you set the stage for some of the later hero arcs. That can work in a sort of ping-pong fashion, where a villain arc has the villains do something bad, then a hero arc has heroes recover from it. The next villain arc has villains recover from the heroes' success and so forth. You're still not putting player actions against player actions, you're still presenting a one-sided story, you just alternate whose side the player is on in each chapter.
Yes, heroes and villains can very much win. All it takes is for them to not be involved in the exact same instanced mission.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
What bugs me is, now that heroes got a taste of how it felt to play villainside, they all got their undies in a wad and demanded that this never happen again.
I'll ask again: Disparity much? |
You have, as a point of fact, accomplished less than nothing, because villains were not made to look any better. They're still lackeys of Darrin Wade and they're still going along with someone else's plan, happy enough to subsist on what's left behind after the real villains - the NPCs - are done having their share. This development satisfies me neither as a hero player nor as a villain player.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You know it's bad when I actually look forward to saving the world (yet again, le sigh) from that jerk.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
villains were not made to look any better. They're still lackeys of Darrin Wade and they're still going along with someone else's plan, happy enough to subsist on what's left behind after the real villains - the NPCs - are done having their share. This development satisfies me neither as a hero player nor as a villain player.
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Assuming that even happens, of course. They still have one more episode to blow my socks off!
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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That is an amusing observation, yes, and it's one I actually do share |
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
You know it's bad when I actually look forward to saving the world (yet again, le sigh) from that jerk.
Assuming that even happens, of course. They still have one more episode to blow my socks off! |
The SSAs have put Darrin Wade over so strongly that even as a villain player, I no longer care about fighting the good guys. I want to take Wade down, instead. And, yes, if I can do that, I will probably save the world. Even if that's not my intention, that's what I'll end up doing.What I find even more amusing is that, for the longest time, people complained that villains spent most of their time fighting other villains or working for other villains, and this wasn't "villainous enough." And now what's being touted as being the pinnacle of satisfying villain? Working for Darrin Wade, and eventually fighting Darrin Wade. Oh, sure, you cap a few heroes along the way, but they're small potatoes. That's not what you're after. You're after Wade. You want to serve Wade. You want to usurp Wade.
This isn't about villains fighting heroes, it's about villains leeching off another villain. When am I going to follow my own plans and work for myself again?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by PSLAnimal
Interesting, isn't it, that aliens, demons, interdimensional superbeings and every other form of nasty critter is focusing all this energy not on London, not on Paris, not on Tokyo (which, granted, has trouble enough with monsters already) not on New York or Washington DC, but on some furshlugginer little city in friggin' Rhode Island?
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London has the Olympics. That's plenty enough gruesome to be worrying about thankyou very much.
But to take on Tony's OP, I agree; Both sides need to have some of the stories concluded - there's a lot of open-ended stuff in the game and some of it could actually be wound up nicely to show that there has been some progression and that what you are doing is making a difference and driving the story forward.
Thelonious Monk
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Have you run new DA yet? Let no one say that villains don't get to pull off audacious plots after issue 22.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This isn't about villains fighting heroes, it's about villains leeching off another villain. When am I going to follow my own plans and work for myself again?
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OK, you have me there. No, I have no. I saw a little of it on Test, but that was from the Hero side since of things. I certainly hope that Incarnate content, at the very least, would let villains pursue their own agendas and pull off their own plans.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Have you run new DA yet? Let no one say that villains don't get to pull off audacious plots after issue 22.
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My complaints have more to do with the SSAs being seen as villains finally getting a win. Maybe, but the villains getting that win there sure as hell ain't my villains.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I really recommend DA as a villain. It was the most satisfying story experience I've had in the game in so many ways. I've only run through it once so I don't know how many of the choices you make are fluff and how many are substantial, but they made all of them feel substantial. I am so not a roleplayer but I was pretty much on the edge of my seat with ants in my pants by the end regarding the climactic decision. But I'll say no more aside from "my god man, what are you waiting for, go try it!"
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I'll definitely have a look. Aside from text errors, I've heard nothing but good stuff about Dark Astoria's writing. I still suspect we're speaking about different things, though. When we talk about a good villain, I'm much more often after greatness and audacity than I am after evil and despicable acts. I've always held that while wanton murder and torture might indeed make one a villain, that's still not a "good" villain that I want to play as.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I really recommend DA as a villain. It was the most satisfying story experience I've had in the game in so many ways. I've only run through it once so I don't know how many of the choices you make are fluff and how many are substantial, but they made all of them feel substantial. I am so not a roleplayer but I was pretty much on the edge of my seat with ants in my pants by the end regarding the climactic decision. But I'll say no more aside from "my god man, what are you waiting for, go try it!"
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That's not a dig against Dark Astoria, of course. I'm just saying we might not mean the same things when we talk about villains.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I know at times it looks a little bleak Tony but lets face facts if we clean up the entire city and no bad guys are left.. what do all the super heroes do?
If you want victories look no further than the incarnate trials. Sure a lot of us repeat them daily but if you follw the story line each trial you complete is not just defeatng but eliminating another one of Cole's cohorts.
Apex TF.. we defeat and eliminate Battle Madien
Tin Mage .. we defeat and eliminate Nueron and Bobcat
BAF .. Siege and Nightstar are destroyed
LAMBDA .. Maurader and the PPD take a huge defeat as their facility is destroyed
Keyes .. Anti Matter is removed and we now control the reactors the service Praetoria
MOM .. Both Malaise and Mother Mayhem are gone and the seer network demolished
UG .. The undreground sewers are a little safer for the resistance and we obtain evidence of Cole's deception.
TPN .. Cole's new lapdog Maelstrom is gone and now the public is aware that their "beloved' Emperor is a liar.
and now the DD .. we stop Diabolique from becoming DEATH itself and take out yet another Praetor.
That's 10 of the 15 known Praetors that Emperor Cole uses to maintain control over his people. All he has left are Black Swan, Chimera, Dominatrix, Infernal and Shadowhunter (who aparently is so unimportant he isn't even required to obtain the Dimensional Warder badge LOL). While that battle isn't over that certainly sounds like progress to me.
I'll admit the deaths of Statesman and Sister Psyche are devastating and I am still reeling a bit from Psyche's death. I understood the reasoning behind doing Statesman in.. shifting the focus of the game from one GOD LIKE super in charge to US being the ones that save the day. And in true comic book fashion just because Statesman and Sister P are gone does not mean they are gone for good. EXAMPLE. Captain America (dead .. opps no sorry alive). Anything is possible .. I sort of doubt we will see a return of Statesman but just last night in chat someone suggested that Sister Psyche could easily be mind riding again inside Manticore just like she did with Aurora. NOT saying it will happen but I certainly could.
As far Galaxy being destroyed.. Its the new tutorial and it allowed us the opportunity to create almost ANY archtype and decide for ourselves before even reachin level 2 if we want to use our powers for good or evil. Also .. eventually we are going to run out of Praetors and once Emperor Cole is gone what's next? THE COMING STORM... for all we know the destruction of Galaxy may very well be the first blow of that promised future plot line.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
I don't even know if Shadowhunter and Infernal(Praet) exist in this new Praetoria. I'm pretty sure the official canon was SH got himself ett by the DE. Black Swan I've not even heard of for a long while, which leaves Chimera and Dominatrix as ones we know are still there.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork