Conversations or monologues?

It seems like ever since Freedom, I haven't had a single good word to say about most new content, but the one thing which keeps repeating is my hate for overly talky, no-action missions like Dr. Graves or Twinshot or a lot of the new stuff. However, I'm not sure that dialogues themselves are the problem. I've been messing with Kingdom of Amalur recently, and despite that game having a VERY rudimentary conversation system, I never really found myself put off by actual conversations, even though they take up such a large part of my time.

This got me to sit down and wonder exactly WHY it is that "talky" missions bother me so much. I wondered why it was that I considered punching enemies in the face proper gameplay and conversations not, despite games like Alpha Protocol, Mass Effect and Human Revolution having succeeded to such an extent almost entirely on the strength of their talking (because combat in all three is pretty garbage). And I realised something:

Conversations in City of Heroes are not gameplay. They're not even conversations, they're simply long briefings punctuated by by mouse clicks. Conversations in this game are just monologues, and it makes me wonder why that is when the very motivation behind the system which makes dialogues possible is to provide a complex system of options. That, really, is at the root of the problem - when we speak with NPCs, we aren't actually DOING anything. We're just reading text and clicking the "proceed to next text screen." option.

Of course, one can argue that City of Heroes isn't really the right game for that sort of thing, that we can't make meaningful choices and so on. But you know what? Based on what I've seen the game system actually do, I believe it's much stronger than we give it credit for. For starters, dialogue windows seem perfectly capable of swapping between a long tree of dialogue screens, even looping on themselves, such as the infodump by Prometheus. We know badges can influence what dialogue options we get, such a villain who's run the Clone Lab arc and swapped to hero-side will get a different response to Jenni Adair speculating about Protean, or how Praetorian can get an option to admit they're Praetorian to Roy Cooling. We know previous mission can have an effect on subsequent dialogues, such as deciding whether or not to kill the DUST leader for the Last Word Heatman.

To me, it seems like dialogues are less limited by technology and more limited by the effort they take to write and set up. In fact, the whole reason I made this thread is because when I woke up this morning, I was inspired to try and write a complex dialogue of my own as a suggestion and an example. I want to put this in a subsequent post, however, because what I came up with ended up very long.

Generally, though, what I mean to say with this whole things is that I'm not against dialogues themselves. In fact, I actually rather enjoy a "boss dialogue" that's as involving as an actual boss fight. I realise we don't have actual player skills to do with dialogues and I realise skipping a boss fight or even talking time to skip a boss fight may be seen as a poor return of rewards, but my point is that it can be just as entertaining, and it can actually make the dialogue seem like it has a reason to exist for more than just one screen with a binary choice on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Let me set up the scenario for you. We're following a story arc where a mobster by the name of Vinnie has dabbled into Black Magic for some reason that isn't important. He has possessed another mobster, a woman by the name of Helga, whom the player has previously had a chance to kill, arrest or set free to work with her on stopping Vinnie. This conversation is with a third mobster by the name of Bubba, from whom we need to get the information on where exactly Vinnie is.

Yes, I'm aware that the full sum of the conversation is very long, but you're not supposed to read through the whole thing. You're supposed to pick a path and stick with it, and each path is really only five or six screens long. The rest is just for options. I haven't really defined what each outcome means, so feel free to infer. If I messed up the numbering somewhere or forgot to add screen directions to options, please let me know.


---
Screen 1: Opening

A hero? Well, that explains what Tony was yappin’ about on the radio. Why are you raidn’ my legitimate warehouse? All this stress ain’t good on my delicate heart. If get any palpitations, my lawyer’s gonna’ eat you for breakfast.

Option 1: Bubba (move to screen 2)
Option 2: Warehouse (move to screen 3)
Option 3: Family (move to screen 4)
Option 4: Mission (move to screen 5)
Option 5: Attack
---

Screen 2: Bubba

Me? Yeah, about me! You got any idea who I am, hero? I’m Bubba Striker and I own the biggest damn shippin’ company in town. You bustin’ into my warehouse was a big mistake, ‘cause see, I got all them friends in high places. You lay a finger on me and you’re goin’ down!

Option 1: Return (move to screen 1)
---

Screen 3: Warehouse

What about it? It’s mine and you’re tresspassin’. I got hundreds of ‘em all over the city. Striker Shipping’s been in my family for 60 years... Well, it’s been in the Family, anyway. We got money and connections comin’ outta our ears, hero. So lemme’ give you a bit of advice, all friendly-like: Turn around an’ go home. You don’t wanna’ mess with us.

Option1: Return (move to screen 1)
---

Screen 4: Family

Hah, as if I’d be dumb enough to confess. You wearin’ a wire, hero? Don’t matter none, ‘cause I don’t know what you’re talkin’ about. But lemme’ tell ya somethin’, hero: The Family ain’t guys you wanna’ mess with, ‘cause when you do, you gonna’ get fitted for a pair of cement shoes and sleep with the fishes before you know it. ‘S all rumour and what they say, ‘course. I don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no Family. I’m a legitimate businessman here.

Option 1: Return (move to screen 1)
---

Screen 5: Mission

Vinnie’s involved in black magic? Ugh, idiot! I mean... I don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no Vivnnie Anzio! Now get outta’ my warehouse unless you got a warrant, ‘cause I’m gonna’ have to defend myself, see.

Option 1: Warrant (move to screen 6)
Option 2: Helga (move to screen 19)
Option 3: Vinnie (move to screen 35)
Option 4: Attack
---

Screen 6: Warrant

Wait, so you do have a warrant? Huh, figured heroes these days just busted into places on their own head. Well, that puts us in quite a predicament, doesn’t it? See, I don’t wanna’ go to jail and you don’t wanna’ get dead, so how ‘bout we make a little deal: You turn around and walk and me... Well, I disappear. You tell the cops whatever you want, I don’t care, and I me... Well, I ain’t never seen you, I don’t know you, I don’t care about you. That sound good?

Option 1: Vinnie (move to screen 7)
Option 2: Helga
Option 3: Attack
---

Screen 7: Warrant/Vinnie

Yeah, OK, I know ‘im. Vinnie Anzio, an... Associate of mine. But I ain’t no rat and, more importantly, I ain’t no wimp! I ain’t tryin’ to weasel my way outta’ this, hero. I’m givin’ you a chance to not get your face punched in. Your call whether you wanna’ take it or not. Fine by me either way.

Option 1: Leniency (move to screen 8)
Option 2: Threaten (move to screen 9)
Option 3: Black Magic (move to screen 10)
Option 4: Attack
---

Screen 8: Warrant/Vinnie/Leniency

A deal with the prosecution? You think I’m stupid? I rat on the Family, they’ll find me, don’t matter where I am. Your idiot police can’t protect me, ‘cause the heavies my guys have’ll tear them to shreads. ‘Sides, like I said, I ain’t no snitch. We’re all family. They take care of me, I take care of them, and if any one of us sinks, we keep our yaps shut. No deal, hero, and no deal means you die!

Option 1: Attack
---

Screen 9: Warrant/Vinnie/Threaten

So, what? You’re goona’ beat me up? Kill me? OK, I got an idea. Say that again, so I can laugh appropriately! Ha ha ha! I eat heroes like you for breakfast, punk! You think I got to where I am ‘cause of my fancy oratory skills? No, I got here ‘cause all the losers what wanted my pace are dead. Where do you get off threatening me! I can kill you with one arm tied behind my back, and I don’t need no capos to help me, neither!

Option 1: Attack
---

Screen 10: Warrant/Vinnie/Black Magic

That idiot. I told him not to mess with that stuff. I’ve seen black magic before, I know what it does to people. I tried to stop Vinnie from meeting with that shaman, but the guy has rocks for brains... And it ain’t just him, neither. Seems like a lotta’ guys been goin’ off the deep end these days. If it ain’t death magic it’s dyne or Freakshow stuff or who knows what. What’s this Family coming to?

Option 1: Arrest (move to screen 11)
Option 2: Deal (move to screen 12)
Option 3: Helga (move to screen 13)
---

Screen 11: Wrrant/Vinnie/Black Magic/Arrest

Say what? No! Just ‘cause I think my associates are idiots don’t mean I wanna’ go to jail! Hell, what am I even sayin’? Deal’s over, hero. First you die, then I’m gonna’ find that idiot Vinnie and make him dead, too. Eat lead!

Option 1: Attack
---

Screen 12: Warrant/Vinnie/Black Magic/Deal

You got a better deal, then? So, what, I rat on Vinnie and you let me go? You know, I ain’t no rat, but that idiot I’ll rat out, ‘cause he ain’t Family no more. Black magic’s evil, hero. I know I ain’t exactly a good guy here, but that stuff’s just wrong. See, my brother, he got taken by the Pantheon a couple ‘a years back. We got ‘im out, but... We were too late. I don’t ever wanna’ see that again, and if Vinnie’s dealing with that stuff, then to hell with the guy. I’ll tell you what you need to know, then I’m outta’ here. Outta’ the whole damn business. I’ve seen enough death, and it only gets worse.

Option 1: Leave
---

Screen 13: Warrant/Vinnie/Black Magic/Helga

Helga Reinhardt? Oh, no! What did you do?

[from previous mission] Option 1: Dead (move to screen 14)
[from previous mission] Option 2: Arrested (move to screen 15)
[from previous mission] Option 3: She sent me (move to Screen 18)
---

Screen 14: Warrant/Vinnie/Black Magic/Helga/Dead

She’s what? But she was... How could you!?! You’re dead, hero! Hear me? DEAD!

Option 1: Attack.
---

Screen 15: Warrant/Vinnie/Black Magic/Helga/Arrested

What do you mean possessed by black magic? Vinnie! Oh, that little punk! Wait till I get my hands on him! I mean, OK, he’s a crook, fine. We all are. But to get Helga in trouble like that? He’s dead! And you, hero, you get outta’ my way! You wanna’ know about Vinnie, I’ll tell you where to find his body when I’m done. Now get outta’ my way!

Option 1: Comply
Option 2: Refuse
---

Screen 16: Warrant/Vinnie/Black Magic/Helga/Arrested/Comply

Smart move. I’ll deal with Vinnie, you just keep outta’ the way and you can have what’s left.

Option 1: Leave
---

Screen 17: Warrant/Vinnie/Black Magic/Helga/Arrested/Refuse

I said move! You know what? Fine. You put Helga in jail, you get to die, too. Fine by me!

Option 1: Attack
---

What do you mean possessed by black magic? And what do you mean she sent you here? Is she OK? I... I gotta’ see her! Look, arrest me, punch me, I don’t care, but I gotta’ see Helga! I gotta’ make sure she’s OK! God damn Vinnie! You wanna’ have a shot at him? You got it. After that... AFTER THAT! Yeah, I’ll rat on the little punk! You find the guy, you kill ‘im! I don’t care ‘bout no laws on this one! Helga didn’t deserve none of this. I got ‘er into this whole mess... Guess I gotta’ do what I can to get ‘er out, eh?

---
Screen 19: Helga

Yeah, Helga Reinhard, she’s a friend of mine. What about her?

[from previous mission] Option 1: Dead (move to screen 14)
[from previous mission] Option 2: Arrested (move to screen 20)
[from previous mission] Option 3: She sent me (move to screen 26)
---

Screen 20: Helga/Arrested

She’s been arrested? What the hell for! Helga never hurt nobody! And if you’re gonna’ try to tell me she ratted me out, forget it! Helga wouldn’t do that! I run a legitimate business here, and so does she. Now I suggest you get outta’ my warehouse. I gotta’ call my lawyer and sort this whole mess out.

Option 1: Helga info (move to screen 21)
Option 2: Helga testified (move to screen 22)
Option 3: Vinnie(move to screen 23)
---

Screen 21: Helga/Arrested/Helga info

Helga Reinhardt. She’s runs Reinhard Imports, and she’s a good woman. Whatever you think she did, she didn’t do it. Helga’s one of the good ones, and in this business... Err, in the import and shipping business... That’s saying a lot!

Option 1: Return (move to screen 20)
---

Screen 22: Helga/Arrested/Helga testified

OK, now you’re just fishin’! I’ve know Helga for 20 years, and she ain’t never gonna’ incriminate me in any illicit-like activity. I’m a legit businessman, and so’s she. Either you’re twistin’ ‘er words, or you’re a damn dirty liar. Or both. Either way, I ain’t buyin’ it.

Option 1: Return (move to screen 20)
---

Screen 23: Helga/Arrested/Vinnie

What do you mean possessed by black magic? Vinnie did what?!? But she’s OK, right? That’s a relief. Yeah, I don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no Vinnie, but you keep on lookin’. Now if you’ll excuse me, I got some... Family business to attend to, then I gotta’ get Helga out of that unfortunate misunderstanding. Now get outta’ my warehouse if you know what’s good for you.

Option 1: Comply (move to screen 24)
Option 2: Refuse (move to screen 25)
---

Screen 24: Helga/Arrested/Vinnie/Comply

Smart move. I’ll remember that. I just hope nothing bad happens to this Vinnie character any time soon. That’d be a shame, wouldn’t it?

Option 1: Leave

---

Screen 25: Helga/Arrested/Vinnie/Refuse

Bad choice, hero. Looks like I’m gonna’ hafta’ defend myself, what with you trespassin’ on my property and all that. Too bad for you!

Option 1: Attack
---

Screen 26: Helga/She sent me

Yeah, and I’m the Queen of Englad. Which I’m not, in case it ain’t obvious. What do you think I am, stupid? I know Helga, and she don’t work with no heroes!

Option 1: Lie (move to screen 27)
Option 2: Vinnie (move to screen 28)
Option 3: Bubba’s brother (move to screen 29)
Option 4: Attack
---

Screen 27: Helga/She sent me/Lie

Nice try, hero, but I don’t buy that for a dollar. You think I’m stupid? I grew up on the streets of Kings Row. If I bought lies like that, I’d have been dead in a ditch 30 years ago. Like I said – Helga don’t work with no heroes, and that’s a fact.

Option 1: Return (move to screen 26)
---

Screen 28: Helga/She sent me/Vinnie

Helga hurt by black magic? OK, that is just low. You heroes are the worst. Quit tellin’ lies ‘bout my friends! And I keep tellin’ you! I don’t know no Vinne! Sheesh! You’re worse than the cops!

Option 1: Return (move to screen 26)
---

Screen 29: Helga/She sent me/Brother

How’d you know about Miles? I never told nobody! Except... I told Helga, but she wouldn’t... She told you about this? I don’t believe it, but... OK, hero, if Helga trust you, then I trust you... Well, enough to hear what you got, anyway.

Option 1: Arrest (go to screen 30)
Option 2: Vinnie’s whereabouts (go to screen 31)
Option 3: Vinnie’s secret
---

Screen 30: Helga/She sent me/Brother/Arrest

Figures! You heroes are all the same. Nothin’s too low for. You use my bother and my best friend against me. Shoulda’ seen that comin’. Fine, if that’s how you wanna’ play it, then let’s dance. You’re trespassin’ on my property. And you’re gonna’ die for it.

Option 1: Attack
---

Screen 30: Helga/She sent me/Brother/Vinnie’s whereabouts

Like I said, I don’t know no Vinnie. Figures you’d use my Helga and my brother to get me to incriminate myself, though. You wearin’ a wire, hero? Don’t matter none. I’m done talkin’, and you’re gonna’ die for traspassin’ on my property. It’s all legit, see.

Option 1: Attack
---

Screen 32: Helga/She sent me/Brother/Vinnie’s secret

He what? That son of a... Oh, no, so Helga really is hurt? Is she OK? Oh, thank god! Yeah, OK, I admit, I know the guy. Vinnie Anzio, small time hustler, works for one of the local loan sharks. Beats people up and collects loans, nothing major. But black magic? I mean, I knew the punk was up to no good, but this? And to hurt Helga? He’s gotta’ pay! Look, I’ll make you a deal – you got nothin’ on me, and I actually do know where Vinnie hangs out. Pretty sure he’s still there. So how ‘bout I tell you where to go and you go there ‘n leave me alone?

Option 1: Comply (move to screen 33)
Option 2: Refuse (move to screen 34)
---

Screen 33: Helga/She sent me/Brother/Vinnie’s secret/Comply

Pleasure doin’ business with ya. Here, I got the address to Vinnie’s hideout, it’s a ratty old warehouse at the docks. One of my old ones, actually. Go there and kick the guy in the teeth for me, will ya? And if you’ll excuse me, I need to go get Helga out of trouble. I owe her that much.

Option 1: Leave
---

Screen 34: Helga/She sent me/Brother/Vinnie’s secret/Refuse

Stupid! Fine, you wanna’ be a boy scout, go right ahead. Good luck finding Vinnie’s address when you’re dead!

Option 1: Attack
---

Screen 35: Vinnie

Like I said. I don’t know no Vinnie and I don’t know nothin’ ‘bout no black magic. Are we done here? ‘Cause I’m a busy man. I gotta’ run a business here. Can’t just go goofin’ off like you heroes can, ‘cause the city ain’t gonna’ pay my bills.

Option 1: Threaten (move to screen 36)
Option 2: Trick (move to screen 37)
Option 3: Attack
---

Screen 36: Vinnie/Threaten

Ooh, I’m so scared. I’m quakin’ in my boots. Do you see me quakin’ in my boots? No? That’s ‘cause I don’t give a damn about your threats. Think you’re the first bully to come bargin’ into my warehouse and want somethin’? I’ve taken down tougher guys than you, hero. You don’t scare me. ‘Sides, ain’t that illegal-like?

Option 1: Return (move to screen 35)
---

Screen 37: Vinnie/Trick

Look, for the last time, I don’t know Vinnie Anzio! I mean... Ugh... OK, fine, so I’ve heard the name before. What of it? I heard of that Requiem guy, too, but that don’t mean I got anythin’ to with ‘im. All’s I know ‘bout Vinnie is he works for some guy givin’ out loans with... High interests, and that’s just rumour from the guys workin’ the docks. So what about ‘im?

Option 1: Whereabouts (move to screen 37)
Option 2: Black Magic (move to screen 38)
Option 3: Helga (move to screen 41)
Option 4: Attack
---

Screen 37: Vinnie/Trick/Whereabouts

Like I said, I don’t know the guy, I just know the name. Try the docks. ‘S all I know.

Option 1: Return (move to screen 36)
---

Screen 38: Black Magic

Ugh... Nightmare stuff, that. I’ve seen what it does to people. So you’re sayin’ Vinnie’s mixed up with that? Idiot. OK, so I know the guy. So sue me. I knew he was up to no good. He was always a small-time punk lookin’ to hit it big time. Guess that’s was his way, eh? Figures he’d try somethin’ stupid like that. Look, if you’re looking to stop his black magic, maybe I can help you out. I know for a fact where you can find Vinnie, and I’m willin’ to part with that info if you clear outta’ my warehouse soon as you know. Deal?

Option 1: Comply (move to screen 39)
Option 2: Refuse (move to screen 40)
---

Screen 39: Vinnie/Trick/Whereabouts/Comply

Guy’s got a warehouse at the docks, one of my old ones. I let ‘im rent it for a while, but he trashed the place, so I moved my business. Should’a capped the punk back then, but I was movin’ outta’ the docks anyway. Here’s the address. Pleasure doin’ business with you.

Option 1: Leave
---

Screen 40: Vinnie/Trick/Whereabouts/Refuse

Figures. You heroes are all the same. You smash people’s stuff, you barge into people’s property and demand everything happen your way. Yeah, good luck with that. You don’t wanna’ deal like civilised people, then fine. You’re tresspassin’ and I’ve got a right to defend myself. Eat lead!

Option 1: Attack
---

Screen 41: Vinnie/Trick/Helga

Yeah, Helga Reinhard. She’s a friend of mine. What about her?

[from previous mission] Option 1: Dead (move to screen 14)
[from previous mission] Option 2: Arrested (move to screen 42)
[from previous mission] Option 3: She sent me (move to screen 45)
---

Screen 42: Vinnie/Trick/Helga/Arrested

What do you mean possessed by black magic? Vinnie! I should have known that punk was up to no good! How could he do that to Helga? She never hurt nobody! Listen, hero, somethin’ just came up. Family business. I suggest you get outta’ my warehouse. Now.

Option 1: Comply (move to screen 43)
Option 2: Refuse (move to screen 44)
---

Screen 43: Vinnie/Trick/Helga/Arrested/Comply

Smart move. You just remember to keep your nose outta’ my business.

Option 1: Leave
---

Screen 44: Vinnie/Trick/Helga/Arrested/Refuse

Fine! Don’t matter to me any. You don’t know when to leave well enough alone, then you can die, too. And when I’m finished with you, I’ll make Vinnie wish he was never born!

Screen 45: Vinnie/Trick/Helga/She sent me

What do you mean possessed by black magic? And she sent you? Huh... She was always a smart lady, Helga. Listen, you want Vinnie, you got ‘im, but I want in! If he hurt Helga, I want in. I’ll get one of the boys to show you where he hangs out. You meet me there, gimme’ an hour to get some muscle together and I’ll meet you there. You wanna’ arrest me or whatever, we can talk about that when we’re done.

Option 1: Leave
---

Screen 41: Vinnie/Trick/Helga

Hey, you keep Helga out of this. Oh, no! What did you do to her!

[from previous mission] Option 1: Dead (move to screen 14)
[from previous mission] Option 2: Arrested (move to screen 15)
[from previous mission] Option 3: She sent me (move to screen 45)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Sam, you need a podcast.

I think the problems with conversations is more subtle than a question of game mechanics. I think you're right that the system can support it, but it looks like a lot of work for a minimal return.

The conversations in First Ward were long. I duoed the arcs with a friend and they were his missions and there were long stretches where he was reading, clicking, reading, clicking, reading and clicking. The game is an MMO and there could be up to seven other people not participating in the conversation and just waiting for it to be over.

The other problem with the First Ward conversations were how they put words in my character's mouth. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I didn't see my character offering up the responses that were scripted. You'd need a writer with a very deft touch to find a middle ground somewhere between dull as dishwater descriptive responses and choices that project too much of a specific personality on the character.

I'm not entirely down on the idea, because I think it could add a lot of immersion into the right mission. It would almost have to be a solo mission, but if it incorporated branching choices and recognition of your badges and previous choices, I think it could be a very nice addition.

Have to agree with Minerva here. While it's technically possible to write complex branching dialogue trees, the reward for doing so is pretty limited. It's also time consuming to outline the entire conversation web and then write a mountain of text when the average player might see less than a quarter of it on a run through. Assuming they don't just rush through the text without reading it.

That, and the usual suspects would complain anyways because it's putting words in their mouth, let alone the people screeching "But I'm a robot/alien/demon/special snowflake! Your powers have no effect on me!" or whatever. The story is more or less railroaded because of limitations of the game and time.

I'd personally like more complex dialogue trees, but I can very much understand why the devs don't really invest in them. It's not worth the trouble for the amount of time and energy they'd have to invest in it for them to appear on a regular basis.

I concur with Doctor_Minerva and Doc_Reverend! (I mean, I do agree with them, but I really wanted to use that reference, given their names, heh)

The other thing there is to consider is the variable player base. As much as I like reading through contact story lines (and I do!), there are players out there who do not care about it. Reasoning varies from player to player, I'm sure, but there are players who won't click the text with "(optional)" next to it, and who won't even read the story line; they will just click the top prompt until they get their mission objective. For those players, a system like the one you outlined in your second post would drive them nuts.

To me, it seems the Devs use the "monologuing" design as a compromise. Those who wish to read through the story have a chunk of text they can digest. Those who want to get back to the shooty-smashy-stuff faster only have a couple clicks to get there.

For the record, I would love more dialogue options in the game, but contacts that would hypothetically have those options may be avoided by other players based simply on the fact that they have too much text to click through.

Longest opening posts . . . ever!

[Havent got the time to add anything constructive but will say that Twinshots does have to be mostly conversation and less fighting because they are tutorial arcs, so they're ok in my mind ]

I agree. Lengthy texts are bad. Especially when done often.

Something to consider. A while back I noted that the fact that we have fast and effective travel powers contributes to this game's casual teaming. The fact that we can log in any character and travel to almost any destination quickly means PUGs are easier to assemble. Take away travel powers, and both alting and casual teaming would suffer as side effects.

Right now, only the leader reads mission dialog. If it was very involved and actually fun to run through the dialog trees, mission owners would face a devil's choice: run them solo so you can take in the dialog at your own pace and never invite other people to play with you when running those missions, run them teamed and skip most of the dialog so people don't have to stand around and wait for you, or run them teamed and make your team suffer while you spend minutes running through the dialog. Or run them with teams skipping the dialog and them running the entire thing again solo in Ouroboros so you eventually get to see the dialog.

There's no question this would detract from casual teaming, because in essence there's a cost to teaming, whereas now that cost is minimal. Even at that, some people complain about the cost in terms of not being able to see the minimal dialog that occurs unless they are the mission owner. How many people have *ever* seen the opening dialog to Lambda, or Keyes? I'll bet most of the people who have run Minds of Mayhem don't know you can get the story at the end by talking to the contacts after completion and before exiting - where there is the branching dialog you mention to a degree.

A certain recently released MMO addresses this by making a dialog system in which every member of the team sees and can participate in the dialog - random rolls affect which person's decision affects the group as a whole, but individual players can get certain dialog-related rewards for their own choices even if their choice doesn't direct the conversation. In this way, everyone gets to see, everyone gets to participate, and there's even a small reward system for participating in teams so players are encouraged to participate in dialog with other team members instead of exclusively alone.

This is probably one of those game features that can't be arbitrarily changed in isolation without the wings of the butterfly changing the weather somewhere. So while I like the idea of more involved dialog personally, I don't think its as simple as just adding in pervasively without changing the dialog system or the game play of the game to adjust.

I think my intent here has gone misunderstood. I'm not really saying that adding complex, involving dialogues is necessarily a good thing for the overall future of the game. Far from it, in fact, as my aforementioned aversion to "talky missions" should attest. I am, however, going off the assertion that we HAVE these missions in the game already, they're just not very good at it. Let me explain.

Newer City of Heroes content loves to throw dialogues at us left and right. Where before we'd get a clue recording what a person has said to us, we are now given a linear dialogue vector where the same person says the same thing, but in more words and split across more screens and, crucially, without this being recorded anywhere. When you reach a dialogue, you HAVE to read it on the spot, or you don't get to read it at all, because once it's gone, you can't bring it back.

As long as we're going to pay the price of dialogue by having missions which are essentially nothing but that, we should at least go all the way and we should at least make that dialogue worthy of being called that. And if we don't feel that dialogues of actual complexity are worth making, then that's fine, too. Can we, then, stop using them but for extraordinary circumstances like the beginning or end of an arc or some special objective? I ask a simple question: Why should my interaction with a person take the form of a three-screen dialogue with no options in it when my interaction with that same person can take the form of a three-paragraph clue?

In a very real sense, the no-win situation of gameplay vs. story already exists, and has always existed. Team-mates don't see mission debriefings, and it's usually difficulty to read briefings, as well, at least when the team rushes for action. However, with dialogues, the problem is far more pronounced, because dialogues leave no written record anywhere. If you don't read them during the actual dialogue, you can't read them at all. Clues, at least, stay behind even after the fact, even after the mission and often persist across an entire arc, especially in the Mission Architect. Why, then, do we use dialogue "trees" instead of clues if NOT to make use of their full potential?

My question here can be asked in both directions. If we're going to have missions that consist primarily of conversations, then why don't we make those conversations into a gameplay element? If we're not going to make conversations into a gameplay element, why have them at all when they come with so many downsides? My suggestion is just a way to make dialogues more interesting, but if that doesn't work, then I'm fine with not having them almost ever, too.

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Somewhat sideways of the subject is the "putting words in my mouth" issue, and it's one I heartily agree with. I HATE the way arcs like Graves and Twinshot put words in my characters' mouths that really, REALLY don't fit them. I don't really blame the writers - the breadth of character concepts here is such that it's impossible to fit everybody. That's not problem without a solution, however, and that solution is to just... Well, not put words in our mouths. Explain what it is that we are communicating, keep it vague enough to have to be interpreted but not so vague as to be unintelligible, and you're set.

You'll note that most of the conversation options I listed in the example dialogue consist of a single word with no punctuation. That's on purpose, and it's the solution as I see it. When, for instance, speaking with Bubba and needing to ask where you can find Vinnie, simply putting in the dialogue option of "Vinnie" should be enough. It's abstract enough to reinterpret that question in whatever way suits your character, and indeed abstract enough to re-interpret exactly what it is your character asked, but it's still specific enough that it tells you which direction it will steer the conversation in. It tells you - the player - that in some way, you will ask something to do with Vinnie. What you will ask and how you will ask it is yours to infer from both the context of the mission and the context of your own character.

I find this approach to be much more liberating and, to be honest, A LOT easier to write. I took the better part of four hours to write the example dialogue just because I'm VERY new to this, but I can tell you for a fact that boiling all responses down to a single word saved me a LOT of time. I never had to worry about what's appropriate to ask, how to word it and which character types I was catering to and which I was alienating. At the end of the day, I knew what the meaning of the question was so I could play off that, but I didn't have to worry about the delivery of the question, and that is quite literally a lot less work.

What I'm getting at is generic one-word conversation options are much easier to write for an actual staff writer and much easier to work with for a player. I personally see no downside to using them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

talky NPCs are fine when I'm chewing bubble gum.
but when I'm all out of bubble gum...

There are many players out there who love involved, interesting and compelling dialog. There's also many players out there who have never read a bit of mission/quest text in any MMORPG they've ever played. There's certainly a fine line we have to walk; do we provide more dialog/story and please a passionate and devoted segment of our Community or do we risk a inducing story fatigue within another, equally important segment of our player base?

As some have observed, we do have some limitations with they way our quest dialog system works, most noticeably that dialog cannot be shared amongst teammates. Of course even if we did, there's no promise that everyone would have the same level of appreciation as everyone else for dialog.

I am extremely proud of the importance we have always placed on the lore of City of Heroes/Villains. I've always found the stories of Statesman, Recluse, Tyrant and the rest of the CoH-verse entertaining and interesting. If you take into account I am one of those people who click through most quest dialog and barely reads lore, the fact that the writing of Protean, Dr. Aeon, Viridian and those who came before them actually compels me to pause and read...well, it means something. This coming from a guy who almost broke his space bar while recently playing another MMO .

i dont mind an in depth story, but in game i prefer to only experience it once and then occasionally, not every single time

the first time its very intriguing i can spend 2 hours running a story arc that i could speed in 15 min if i wanted

after the first maybe 2-3 times though ive almost memorized the entire point of the story and thus i hate rereading it, so everytime i dont feel like reading it i just speed through it and ignore pretty much every bit of text since i know whats going to happen and when and what to do

Dialog options would be cool.

But how many people would a dialog tree like the one that took me 15 seconds to scroll past piss off if they have to navigate something like that every single time they want to go punch stuff in the face?

I LIKE the story in the game, and a dialog tree like that would even annoy me.

It's a case of something that would be great for one part of the playerbase, but would be an unmitigated rage-inducing annoyance for another.

I like the chat bubbles (when it is someone else's mish), and I like the private chat bubbles (when it is my mish). I also like IO/ATOs, so this must make me the antithesis of Sam.