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I have no problem with set proliferation but I do have a problem when Stalker is the only AT that is being restricted. Sure, Scrapper can have Ninjitsu if my Stalker can have either /shield or titan weapon (both claimed by the dev that theme does not fit). |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I think what some people are trying to get at is that any consideration of "AT fairness" based on something like set availability is kind of bizarre from the off. I would think, and hope, that the most common viewpoint among players is that more proliferation = better. Rather than looking at stalkers and shields and getting bent out of shape, one thus merely considers it a proliferation opportunity that has not happened yet, just like ninjitsu on scrappers. It isn't a situation where one gap justifies the other since neither is justified.
If you're coming at it from the alternate perspective of "ATs should have unique sets" then I suppose there's a fundamental disagreement. Perhaps we can at least agree to disagree! |
Scrapper can have Energy Melee but I want War Mace on Stalker too.
Honestly, Scrapper is the base performance comparison for all four melee and they can have every set and people can find a theme for it. Scrapper's inherent does not interfere with any of the new mechanisms in melee sets (combo, form change, titan weapon), unlike Stalker who is married to Build Up and Assassin Strike and the dev needs to modify the new sets to fit Stalker's gameplay.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I play mostly stalker and I can tell you /Shield FITS Stalker's gameplay perfectly (except for one power which can be easily replaced just like what they did for Willpower).|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
The actual design of the Shield Defense powerset is what they've always been concerned doesn't fit Stalkers: defending allies, relying on allies to buff their defense, and then having lower defenses than other sets in exchange for a nearly build up-level damage buff when you're surrounded by enemies.
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Shield has a bit lower personal defense in exchange for granting defense to others and having an awesome aoe attack that all Stalkers would die for.
Stalker is never going to grab aggro away from Tanker/Brute/Scrapper so the weaker personal defense really doesn't matter as much as some people think. If you play Stalkers enough, you'll realize that 1. you aren't going to be the meatshield for the team 2. even if you want to be the meatshield, you will have trouble grabbing aggro away from teammates. I use my Stalker and team with my friend's dominator and corr, and I can tell you that I can't grab aggro away from them even if I want to. Stalker has no taunt at all.
Stalker can technically buff teammates inside before the fight even begins! Several Stalkers can Grant Cover each other before Assassination starts!
Shield Charge does not break Hide so you can easily follow up with another nasty critical attack.
I think the sole reason that Stalker can't have Shield is that it is going to be "TOO GOOD" for Stalker. The idea that /shield won't work with Stalker is completely false IMO. /Shield works too well on Stalker and it makes other secondaries look bad and unattractive in terms of performance.
Sacrificing personal survival for more Damage is a PERFECT fit for an Assassin. This means Stalker will never have /Shield and /Fiery Armor.
Stalker's performance is all tied to BU and Assassin Strike now. There is no way they'll give Stalker a shield charge or another build up in Fiery Embrace.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Limiting sets to certain ATs citing 'flavour' seems silly. I am quite capable of deciding for myself whether or not a given powerset 'fits' a given AT. If I do not think the powers 'fit' the AT, I will simply not make a character of that AT/powerset. Other people will, and I will not care that they do.
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Indeed.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
My view on it:
Scrappers should get Nin. Stalkers should get Shield. If Stalkers don't get Shield, Scrappers should still get Nin. If Scrappers don't get Nin, Stalkers should still get Shield. |
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Stalkers don't have shield because the devs didnt' want to spend the time to make the adjustments it would have needed.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I play mostly stalker and I can tell you /Shield FITS Stalker's gameplay perfectly (except for one power which can be easily replaced just like what they did for Willpower).
Shield has a bit lower personal defense in exchange for granting defense to others and having an awesome aoe attack that all Stalkers would die for. Stalker is never going to grab aggro away from Tanker/Brute/Scrapper so the weaker personal defense really doesn't matter as much as some people think. If you play Stalkers enough, you'll realize that 1. you aren't going to be the meatshield for the team 2. even if you want to be the meatshield, you will have trouble grabbing aggro away from teammates. I use my Stalker and team with my friend's dominator and corr, and I can tell you that I can't grab aggro away from them even if I want to. Stalker has no taunt at all. Stalker can technically buff teammates inside before the fight even begins! Several Stalkers can Grant Cover each other before Assassination starts! Shield Charge does not break Hide so you can easily follow up with another nasty critical attack. I think the sole reason that Stalker can't have Shield is that it is going to be "TOO GOOD" for Stalker. The idea that /shield won't work with Stalker is completely false IMO. /Shield works too well on Stalker and it makes other secondaries look bad and unattractive in terms of performance. Sacrificing personal survival for more Damage is a PERFECT fit for an Assassin. This means Stalker will never have /Shield and /Fiery Armor. Stalker's performance is all tied to BU and Assassin Strike now. There is no way they'll give Stalker a shield charge or another build up in Fiery Embrace. |
Just like Titan Weapons.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Test Rat's assumption is probably the right one. Because if the set had mechanical problems working with the AT, then you could simply change 2 (if there's nothing wrong with Scrappers granting cover, there's nothing wrong with Stalkers doing so) of the powers to have worked: 1st being Phalanx Fighting for Hide and the 2nd most likely a click buff for a burst of damage.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Well, to be fair the Devs aren't against Stalkers having a shield. When they say it doesn't fit Stalkers, they don't mean because you're holding a shield and that's not stealthy.
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But to be more clear about what I said before, I was talking about the justification for not giving Stalkers that set hinged on the set's theme not being in line with the AT's theme. Whether that reason is overturned or not only really defines the pecking order:
The devs said Stalkers may get Titan Weapons ported to them despite what they previously said about it not being 'subtle' or stealthy. Scrappers can get Ninjutsu, a non-thematic set for them, *AFTER* the devs somehow prove they aren't holding such double standards to other ATs.
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To be fair, the idea that Stalkers shouldn't get Titan Weapons or Sheild Defense is kinda sound from the concept. Stalkers are meant to be assassin's/ninjas/scouts who tend to rely on stealth and speed. Holding a big shield or massive weapon isn't conductive to either stealth or speed. If they get ported to Stalkers, fine. If not, oh well.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Test Rat's assumption is probably the right one. Because if the set had mechanical problems working with the AT, then you could simply change 2 (if there's nothing wrong with Scrappers granting cover, there's nothing wrong with Stalkers doing so) of the powers to have worked: 1st being Phalanx Fighting for Hide and the 2nd most likely a click buff for a burst of damage.
But to be more clear about what I said before, I was talking about the justification for not giving Stalkers that set hinged on the set's theme not being in line with the AT's theme. Whether that reason is overturned or not only really defines the pecking order: The devs said Stalkers may get Titan Weapons ported to them despite what they previously said about it not being 'subtle' or stealthy. Scrappers can get Ninjutsu, a non-thematic set for them, *AFTER* the devs somehow prove they aren't holding such double standards to other ATs. |
Porting Nin to Scrappers is something I support, but the idea brought up earlier about making a new set, Bushido, based off Ninjitsu and remade for Scrappers sounds even better. Probably defense heavy (Positional) with +Perception and -to hit debuff resistance. Instead of a click hold protection power, maybe a toggle with stacking resistances (Ala Invivibility's Defense). Make the T9 a mild boost to defense and resistance that doesn't have a harsh crash, but can't take recharge enhancements.
Something a little similar, but also different and opposite.
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I don't see how Ninjitsu doesn't fit themetically with Scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Test Rat's assumption is probably the right one. Because if the set had mechanical problems working with the AT, then you could simply change 2 (if there's nothing wrong with Scrappers granting cover, there's nothing wrong with Stalkers doing so) of the powers to have worked: 1st being Phalanx Fighting for Hide and the 2nd most likely a click buff for a burst of damage.
But to be more clear about what I said before, I was talking about the justification for not giving Stalkers that set hinged on the set's theme not being in line with the AT's theme. Whether that reason is overturned or not only really defines the pecking order: The devs said Stalkers may get Titan Weapons ported to them despite what they previously said about it not being 'subtle' or stealthy. Scrappers can get Ninjutsu, a non-thematic set for them, *AFTER* the devs somehow prove they aren't holding such double standards to other ATs. |
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And Ninjutsu boasts mechanics of misdirection and subterfuge, which go counter to the simple and direct approach of the other 3 melees who want *more* aggro not less.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
To be fair, the idea that Stalkers shouldn't get Titan Weapons or Sheild Defense is kinda sound from the concept. Stalkers are meant to be assassin's/ninjas/scouts who tend to rely on stealth and speed. Holding a big shield or massive weapon isn't conductive to either stealth or speed. If they get ported to Stalkers, fine. If not, oh well.
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To be *fair*, it shouldn't matter what you hold or how big it is, neither coincide directly with speed or stealth in this game of super heroes. To hold Stalkers to the standard of needing to be small and quiet but then defining small and quiet as advantageous through aggro prevention and trickery yet still hand out the capability to be small and quiet to ATs that aren't defined as small and quiet is the very definition of double standards. You're basically forcing Stalker to be one thing while letting Scrapper be everything because Scrappers are apparently super enough to do anything while Stalkers aren't super enough to do anything but what their theme is limited to.
And to be *logical*, if a Stalker can't use Titan Weapons or Super Strength while being small and sneaky (Nin), *WHY* should an AT who isn't as good at being small and sneaky be able to? Stalkers have higher caps for -perception radius, can redirect the foe's attention with various powers and get to be fully invisible from level 1 but can't carry a huge weapon. Okay...but let's give Scrappers the same skills but still carry a huge weapon, making them mechanically better at sneaking about. Riiiiiight...
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Porting Nin to Scrappers is something I support, but the idea brought up earlier about making a new set, Bushido, based off Ninjitsu and remade for Scrappers sounds even better. Probably defense heavy (Positional) with +Perception and -to hit debuff resistance. Instead of a click hold protection power, maybe a toggle with stacking resistances (Ala Invivibility's Defense). Make the T9 a mild boost to defense and resistance that doesn't have a harsh crash, but can't take recharge enhancements. Something a little similar, but also different and opposite. |
The devs can't make 2 measly animations to port out Titan Weapons but effectively an entirely new armor set for the other guys? It's bad enough, in the last rounds of proliferation, Stalkers have pretty much been shafted (Scraps and Brutes got 3 sets, Tankers got 2 while Stalkers got 1; before that, Scraps and Tanks got 2 and Brutes/Stalkers got 1), but now that there aren't many sets left for Scraps and Brutes, you want rehashed sets too? Well I'll be darned
To much whining in this thread. The day will come and I will eat the popcorn and watch at the gnashing of teeth and the boo hoos of the woe is me I'm not a unique snowflake anymore. Oh it will come.
I'd be okay with the Bushido idea, but i'd prefer getting Broadsword buffed a bit as, imo, it's much less attractive than Katana AND TW now that the latter is out (not going to open that can of worms again).
I would prefer over both getting Ice Armor for scrappers.
And Ice Melee, because that would mean getting it buffed to the nines beforehand.
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You're railing against an opinion that nobody here has presented, as far as I can tell. We are all in agreement that Stalkers not getting any set because it doesn't "fit" them thematically is completely stupid. It isn't a double standard: Scrappers should get whatever sets they don't yet have, and so should Stalkers. Yet if this is a stupidity that the devs insist on, fine, let's proliferate everything else that can possibly be proliferated, and isolate this island of stupidity in the sea of everything else that makes sense, and then we can point out that it's isolated and stupid and needs to change. The solution should not be to keep a bunch of things that are stupid so that one stupid thing will make sense.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
To be *fair*, it shouldn't matter what you hold or how big it is, neither coincide directly with speed or stealth in this game of super heroes. To hold Stalkers to the standard of needing to be small and quiet but then defining small and quiet as advantageous through aggro prevention and trickery yet still hand out the capability to be small and quiet to ATs that aren't defined as small and quiet is the very definition of double standards. You're basically forcing Stalker to be one thing while letting Scrapper be everything because Scrappers are apparently super enough to do anything while Stalkers aren't super enough to do anything but what their theme is limited to.
And to be *logical*, if a Stalker can't use Titan Weapons or Super Strength while being small and sneaky (Nin), *WHY* should an AT who isn't as good at being small and sneaky be able to? Stalkers have higher caps for -perception radius, can redirect the foe's attention with various powers and get to be fully invisible from level 1 but can't carry a huge weapon. Okay...but let's give Scrappers the same skills but still carry a huge weapon, making them mechanically better at sneaking about. Riiiiiight... |
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I agree with this 100%.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Not only would ice armor be better for scrappers than ninjitsu, it seems theoretically possible that they'd be inclined to give scrappers ice melee as well. Presumably this would entail improvements for ice melee, and if that happened it would be a win for both scrappers and tankers.
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YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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Yeah I want that Bushido set for stalkers.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
To be fair, the idea that Stalkers shouldn't get Titan Weapons or Sheild Defense is kinda sound from the concept. Stalkers are meant to be assassin's/ninjas/scouts who tend to rely on stealth and speed. Holding a big shield or massive weapon isn't conductive to either stealth or speed. If they get ported to Stalkers, fine. If not, oh well.
Porting Nin to Scrappers is something I support, but the idea brought up earlier about making a new set, Bushido, based off Ninjitsu and remade for Scrappers sounds even better. Probably defense heavy (Positional) with +Perception and -to hit debuff resistance. Instead of a click hold protection power, maybe a toggle with stacking resistances (Ala Invivibility's Defense). Make the T9 a mild boost to defense and resistance that doesn't have a harsh crash, but can't take recharge enhancements. Something a little similar, but also different and opposite. |
It sounds better than Ninjitsu
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Like I said, if the devs are going to overturn their previous reasons for keeping certain sets on certain ATs, then it just creates a pecking order. They already said TW may be ported to Stalkers...don't recall them saying anything about Ninjutsu for any other ATs. So *that* should be done first since they already said it before looking into adding powers to Nin so it can be ported, and in addition to that, Stalkers are the AT with the fewest of the sets available to the other melees. Even if it's *easier* to port things to Scrapper, Scraps have had *plenty* much attention in the past already and it's past due to get to work on the not-so-easier stuff.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
We are all in agreement that Stalkers not getting any set because it doesn't "fit" them thematically is completely stupid. It isn't a double standard: Scrappers should get whatever sets they don't yet have, and so should Stalkers.
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And on the other hand, stupid or no, if Stalkers are held to these stupid standards then *YES* other ATs should too because at this point in the game's life, were we to wait for Scraps to isolate islands of stupid (leaving Stalkers stranded there), it'd be 6-8 years down the line before anything is done about it. By then, I doubt I'd care because I probably won't be actively playing the game anyway.
That is, I'd rather Nin stay on Stalkers so that, perhaps the desire to have that set on your Scrap or Brute will make the ludicrous thematic pigeonholes Stalkers are forced through more noticeable.
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At this point I'm just daydreaming but if they did spruce up ice melee to port it to scrappers, how much extra work would it really be to give it to stalkers as well? It always seemed like a natural fit for stalkers, to me, so I was never clear on why they didn't get it to go along with the armor.
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Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
I agree with this 100%.
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At this point I'd support porting Ninjitsu to Tankers, and then Brutes before it gets ported to Scrappers. Not (just) to spite all of the Scrappers who have been complaining for years about wanting it, but because if the argument is "everything should be available to everybody" then they should also fully support it going to Tankers and Brutes, right? But I've never once seen a thread in those forums asking for it, it's always people asking about Scrappers - and people who insist that they couldn't possibly want a(nother) Stalker to use the set, it has to be a Scrapper because there's just no way possible to play a Stalker in the manner they want despite all evidence to the contrary. So sure, there's a little bit of spite in it...
But the main reason is because it would be just as conceptually silly as the Fiery Aura or Stone Armor Stalker that I want simply because it's silly. So either (or both) of those secondaries could go to Stalkers at the same time, and I could make the "this is not the huge pile of rock that makes loud thumping noises while sneaking by that you are looking for" or the "flaming pillar of sneakiness" characters. I might even make a Ninjitsu Tanker just because of how much chaos I could cause with Smoke Flash!
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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The devs didn't want to spend the time to do it.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
At this point I'm just daydreaming but if they did spruce up ice melee to port it to scrappers, how much extra work would it really be to give it to stalkers as well? It always seemed like a natural fit for stalkers, to me, so I was never clear on why they didn't get it to go along with the armor.
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And Siolffir, Blocks of Ice Covering a person is sneakier than blocks of Stone?
How about Being Covered in Electricty, how is that sneakier than Being on fire?
Its all stupid.
Again: the reason X set does not appear on X AT is because the devs didn't want to take the time to do it.
The reason Scrappers Brutes and Tanks get more is just economies of scale. It requires no additonal work.
And its why Scrappers will not get Ninjitsu alone, it would likely go to all three of the ATs where the devs get the most bang for hours of manpower.
(And conversely: How much of an insult it would be to the stalker AT if the devs Port ninjitsu JUST to scrappers.)
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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I've already pointed out how stupid Electric Armor is for Stalkers - it was in my signature for years - and personally feel that Fiery Aura is no worse and probably is better from a "stealthy" perspective because at least with a fire, there's smoke to hide in. But the specific reason I mentioned Stone Armor is because of Granite Armor and the *thump*thump*thump* sound effects which are obviously meant to indicate that it is far from stealthy. Ice Armor doesn't do that, and if you wanted to be silly about it, especially with the prestige Power Slide, you could say that sliding on the ice makes it easier to move without extra sound.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
The devs didn't want to spend the time to do it.
And Siolffir, Blocks of Ice Covering a person is sneakier than blocks of Stone? How about Being Covered in Electricty, how is that sneakier than Being on fire? Its all stupid. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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One thing is people are missing in here is the proliferated set doesn't need to be called ninjitsu at all. Just how katana power in stalkers is called ninja blade it can be called something else like mandra armor or chi aura or something similiarly far east oriented so I don't think concept is the blocking factor in here its just putting time into work and frankly speaking before more profilerate most people would want to have more solo incarnate content and probably next incarnate slots opened.
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Word!
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Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly
Limiting sets to certain ATs citing 'flavour' seems silly. I am quite capable of deciding for myself whether or not a given powerset 'fits' a given AT. If I do not think the powers 'fit' the AT, I will simply not make a character of that AT/powerset. Other people will, and I will not care that they do.
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@ThrillKiller
I suppose the easiest way to port it is to remove Caltrops (since it exists in Weapon Mastery), change Hide into a simple stealth power similar to Energy Aura's Energy Cloak, and then split Danger Sense into two toggles so one gives range def and the other gives aoe def... but it would only be fair if Stalkers get Shield Defense in a modified form in return, along with one more secondary such as Invulnerability or Fiery Aura or even a new one before that happens to balance the numbers.
Ideon's Paragonwiki page
Member of Paragon/Rogue Knights
Arc: 60092 - Supa Rumble in the Park
"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller
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To put it simply, this would be a nerf to a set that is middling in the first place. While the devs have shown themselves willing to make changes that some find objectionable during proliferation (combining night fall and torrent into one power, dropping combustion for incinerate), they've never outright made a set worse. What I suspect ninjitsu would actually get get during a port given their current attitude is buffs.
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Originally Posted by Ideon
split Danger Sense into two toggles so one gives range def and the other gives aoe def
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It does seem like a middle of the road set for a so far AT unique set. That's it! Give each toggle shield resists!|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
To put it simply, this would be a nerf to a set that is middling in the first place. While the devs have shown themselves willing to make changes that some find objectionable during proliferation (combining night fall and torrent into one power, dropping combustion for incinerate), they've never outright made a set worse. What I suspect ninjitsu would actually get get during a port given their current attitude is buffs.
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Smashing Resist in the melee defense toggle and Lethal Resist inthe range/aoe toggle!
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Personally, I'd rather have it for Tankers. But all proliferation is good in my book.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
If Stalkers have no choice but to be covert therefore they cannot get Shield Defense, Scrappers have no choice but to *not* be covert and cannot get Ninjutsu...
..from a conceptual point, that is...
The actual design of the Shield Defense powerset is what they've always been concerned doesn't fit Stalkers: defending allies, relying on allies to buff their defense, and then having lower defenses than other sets in exchange for a nearly build up-level damage buff when you're surrounded by enemies.
It just didn't fit the original intended design of the Stalker to be an assassin. As they're backing away from this a bit now and letting Stalkers scrap it out better, Shields for Stalkers might be revisited in the future. Although we'd probably end up just getting a second build up-type power in place of Against all Odds (like Reconstruction in place of Rise to the Challenge) and with Hide taking the place of Phalanx Fighting, we'd probably get a tiny boost to the defense from the toggles (like the Energy Aura toggles for Stalkers).
Until we get to that point though, I like to think the Devs are letting Ninjitsu remain exclusive to Stalkers, since all the other Melee ATs get Shields. Like a temporary trade-off until they're ready to port Shields to Stalkers.