Endgames are backwards

^^Incarnate trials do have a lot of the hallmarks of online skinner boxes. Randomly generated rewards to comparatively little content requiring rarer and harder to get rewards in order to preform better at later trials. However, when compared to pretty much every other MMO I've ever played, CoH is a lot lighter on these things. Imagine if it weren't, and you had to play for 30 hours to go from 49 to 50 doing nothing but ITF with full teams. And imagine if the ITF was made up of your character doing the exact same animation against a single critter for 3 minutes at a time.


Anyway, to talk to the OP about this topic, the thing with this game is that it wasn't specifically designed for end-game content. A lot of the good stuff is in the 20-40 range, which is where a lot of casual players tend to hang out. It is supposed to be like this: the game isn't based around being maximum level, but it is based around giving people enough stuff to want to continue to play to see more.

The thing is that a lot of MMOs do this. The money isn't in the hardcore players who still play CoH even during the week Skyrim was released. It is about appealing to the masses. CoH also has Ourobos, so from this angle it makes sense to front/middle pack the game; you never "outgrow" that content.

I have to agree, very interesting thread, and there's beeen a lot of great responses in it with a lot of thought put into them. Here's my take on it.

PvP was supposed to be a big part of the 'endgame' content, because each fight would be fresh and challenging... Until they learned how much of a headache it was to balance the game for it, and how much hate they got over trying to make it work equally for everyone. The Arenas were introduced as early as I-4 to test and prep for the inclusion of PvP as a big part of 'endgame' content. I think one of the biggest failings with it was the lack of objectives beyond 'kick the pancake out of your opponent', but that's my opinion.

The A.E. was supposed to be a big part of the 'endgame' because it was a source of undending story arcs and player generated content, until they learned a lot of folks would just make farms and PL with it, and not even learn how to leave Atlas Park. Not my opinion. That's a true story, I remember it, and was there for the help requests of the level 50 'PL babies' that didn't even know how to play the game. If you weren't there... yes, it was that bad.

Both of these systems were all but admitted to, if not outright, by the Dev's at the time as a way to find the mystic 'endgame' content. No, I can't site sources. It was a long time ago and I've slept since then, but I'm sure folks with more clout than I, can vouch for this.

...

Now, there's iTrials, which are grindy, but at least it's consistantly done by many players, is easily balanceable against the rewards by the Dev team, and folks actually defend its existance because there's precident (regardless of how it's seen or reacted to) that it works.

We can't say they haven't tried to make more 'do' stuff vs. 'get' stuff. Anyone who does either is new(ish) to the game, or hasn't paid any attention. The thing is they have to cater to the lowest and/or loudest denominator to have it 'work' for (or more specifially 'appeal to') the most people, higher-minded ideals be damned. Sad but true, and a fact that is painfully reproduced again and again in many aspects of life in my experience.

At this pont, I think they're doing the best they can to please the most ammount of people within their budget and schedule. I don't hold this against them, even if I'm not among those 'most' sometimes. I really think the D.A. revamp is a lean toward trying to add more 'do' content, but I'm not holding my breath that the rewards will come close to the grindy 'get' content, to keep folks on that looping treadmill. I'm willing to give it a shot though, and given time, hopefully, they'll have enough 'do' content for incarnates that they won't have to fight so much to keep folks on the 'get' content.

I love this game, regardless of the things I don't like about it so far, the pros outweigh the cons for me still. So I'm pretty sure I'll be around long enough to find out either way

I belive that one advantage that the Incarnate system has over other "end game" systems, is that by running *any* content (well apart from non dev choice AE arcs....) once you have hit the level cap (and unlocked the incarnate system by several methods) will at some point or another progress your character in *some fashion* in the Incarnate system.

Yes i know that shards are "out of fashion"... but for solo play, if you are getting more than 10 a day, you are doing better than expected. Yadda yadda talk about tweaking x/y/z to make it better yadda yadda yadda

Now granted, is the rate of progress suitable? Open to debate, because my GF has managed to Very Rare alpha, T2 all the others with the majority of it being solo play and *limited* TF participation (and maybe 1 or 2 BAF's... she doesnt like them).

Granted, it has taken her a while, but she does also suffer from altitis, but it is indeed doable...

I do think that the "solo" rate of progression could be sped up, and indeed quite possibly the T3/T4 rate as well, especially for those who have bad luck with drop rates... especially with so many different choices available to you, and that it could well be recommended to have different "Destiny" powers available, it just takes time.

Ah yes, back to the point: The point is thoguh, the incarnate system *doesnt* force you to run the iTrials to progress, there is nothing specifically locked behind them that "progresses" your character. There are fluff drops (Pistol costume drops IIRC i forget), but nothing *mechanically* essential locked behind them. They are just the faster/preferred route

*shrugs* make of it what you will... i *prefer* something being available without having run x/y/x to get the parts to make a/b/c. Yes it might be faster, but it shouldn't be the *only* method of acquiring something (the rate of acquisition though yadda yadda been debated before)

I really just want to be able to do content 1-49 and get 50 rewards. I would seriously do it all the time. Well, more. One of the reasons I am so poor after many years of playing is that I spend very little time running any 50s. I alt like mad. It is getting better, since there is more stuff to do at 50 these days. But I was a redside exclusive up until a year or so ago. You hit 50, and its ITF or LGTF or ..... yeah. Since I am always making new characters anyways I just never habitually ran 50s. Now I am starting to devote time each week to a couple 50s, but its new to me. Therefore, purple recipe drops, millions in random recipes, just rarely drop for me, since I'm on Joe the New Blaster playing at level 24 a lot. If I could run my favorite 50s through a ton of content and actually get 50 rewards that would be a good end game for me. Running endless (not endless, repetitive) radio missions, tip missions, half a dozen TFs, and Incarnate grind is like 1-5% of the games content, yet all I can run if I want "real" rewards.

Don't forget there's the Mortimer Kal SF for villainside, 20-40 strike force that nabs a nice temp power til 50, then turns into a Notice. Very handy, that. Wouldn't mind more things like that honestly

If the 'end game' content ran more like a hard mode version of the standard TFs I would be more interested in it. I can't say I'm a fan of these multi team raids.

It might be nice if we could get some threads and incarnate salvage in a new lvl 50 PvP zone and arena. Perhaps threads for time logged in the zone and salvage for completing certain missions or something along such lines.