So, why does the Mastermind ATO set suck?


BenRGamer

 

Posted

I have some good news regarding the Mastermind ATO set:

Arbiter Hawk replied to a PM inquiring about the problems with the set, saying that, while he can't promise if anything will change, or when, that he is aware of this thread and the issues that we have brought up, and that he and Synapse plan to discuss what, if anything, they want to do about it in the future.

I'm sure neither of our benevolent red-names need an inbox full of PMs about this, but if anyone has any further suggestions for the set, this would be a great place to post them.


@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

 

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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
This... is an absolutely fantastic idea.
Precedent has been set for a "multi-aspect" enhancement component to this ATO's with "Control Duration" in Will of the Controller.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo View Post
Precedent has been set for a "multi-aspect" enhancement component to this ATO's with "Control Duration" in Will of the Controller.
Also a great point... I would definitely love to see the Recharge portions replaced with this sort of +Special enhancement... it would be exceptionally cool for Bots, Thugs, and Demons Tier 2, and Ninjas and Necromancy Tier 3. Mercs would get something of the short end of the stick, but, it's already been acknowledged (I think by Synapse, on the Beta forums) that Mercs is overdue for a review in the future anyway.


@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

 

Posted

Blah.. it's good but it could be better. I think Defense is probably the easiest thing to get.

I was hoping MM's unique can boost resistance-all instead of just defense because some pets like Ninja have like ZERO resistance. If they get hit, they can die in one hit from bosses.

I would rather take a mix of 10% resistance + 5% defense aoe.


What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

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Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo View Post
Absolutely - well aware of that but I had it in my head somewhere that it was changed so that there was NO benefit in Recharge at all. I'd test it but I'm at work right now

The fact that the Pet Damage sets have zero Recharge (and there's separate Recharge Intensive Pet sets) seems to bear this out.
Just a minor point: The Pet Damage sets came out when the Invention System was first introduced and the Recharge Intensive Pet sets came out some time after. Pets being made immune to recharge altering effects happened well after all that. So the Pet Damage sets having zero recharge bears nothing out considering that the change to pets was made quite some time after they were introduced.

...

The MM ATO set's not terrible, but it's not nearly as appealing as most of the other ATO sets.


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i make stuff...

 

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Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
The MM ATO set's not terrible, but it's not nearly as appealing as most of the other ATO sets.
As it stands, proc aside, it's got worse enhancement values and set bonuses than several Pet Damage and Recharge Intensive Pet Damage sets, on top of being strikingly inferior to the other ATO sets :/


@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
Just noticed another little point of irritation: The one potentially useful piece of the set, being the defense aura, is attached to a Recharge enhancement bonus. Whoopie. The stat that doesn't actually do anything at all for the pet it's slotted in. Great idea.
Can you throw it on Soul Extraction, or /Dark's Fluffy, or Hell on Earth, or Gang War, or a thousand other recharge intensive pets that MMs can get ahold of?


 

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Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
Can you throw it on Soul Extraction, or /Dark's Fluffy, or Hell on Earth, or Gang War, or a thousand other recharge intensive pets that MMs can get ahold of?
I believe it's been mentioned that it can work with HoE, SE, and GW. I haven't seen mention of it working with Dark Servant or not. However not all sets get recharge intensive pets (ie Ninjas and Mercs). Actually overall there aren't that many recharge intensive pets for MMs.


 

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Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
Can you throw it on Soul Extraction, or /Dark's Fluffy, or Hell on Earth, or Gang War, or a thousand other recharge intensive pets that MMs can get ahold of?
Find me something on my Bots/Traps MM I can usefully place it in please.

And by usefully, I mean where the Recharge will actually have an impact on my gameplay, since resummoning pets doesn't happen often enough to warrant losing other enhancement values for the AoE Defence.


Warning:

The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.

 

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Mercs would get something of the short end of the stick, but, it's already been acknowledged (I think by Synapse, on the Beta forums) that Mercs is overdue for a review in the future anyway.
bah, turn Serum into an AP Ammo buff for a pet or something. Give the commando some irradiated rounds :P like giving them Achilles' Heel IO proc but as a power instead of an enhancement--mercs aren't that awful if you have that io slotted into the soldiers and spec-ops, since they can at least sorta make up for their horribly over-resisted lethal damage. And take the grenade away from the stupid medic since his range with it is shorter. Bad as an arsonist when it comes to getting gibbed.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canine View Post
Find me something on my Bots/Traps MM I can usefully place it in please.

And by usefully, I mean where the Recharge will actually have an impact on my gameplay, since resummoning pets doesn't happen often enough to warrant losing other enhancement values for the AoE Defence.
My feelings exactly.

The Mastermind ATO set should be good for every Mastermind.


@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

 

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
I'd be happy if it were good for any mastermind.
Seconded ... and that goes double for any Mastermind who doesn't have access to Recharge Intensive Pets.


It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

 

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
I'd be happy if it were good for any mastermind.
I LOLed but then I have to admit that it is good for a mastermind* but not so much for a Mastermind.

*(I am not saying I am buying them up to re-roll them with enhancment converters. That would be devious.)


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
This... is an absolutely fantastic idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo View Post
Precedent has been set for a "multi-aspect" enhancement component to this ATO's with "Control Duration" in Will of the Controller.
However, those are not simply +controlduration enhancements. It's a Hold/Immob/Disorient/Sleep/Confuse duration enhancement.

there would be no nice way to have a +Special like that. About the only way to really do it would be having the Global IO in the MM ATO set do an aura that gives the pets a state to enable a special power (like how some TW powers require momentum to work at all).

But that would require going through and adding powers to each and every pet.


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Posted

Originally, I just passed the ATEs over and sold the ones I got trying to get the Elemental Order costume right off. (well I waited a day for orders to get out there) But this thread actually has me looking at the Mastermind ones.

Since we can slot both the regular and the enhanced ones, even disregarding the rest of the set, and the Recharge component of that Enhancement, we have 25% AoE defense for pets. Add in Edict of the Master, 30%. (I'm not 100% sure that Edict has AoE defense, but I'm going to go with it for now)

Well, on My Mercs/Traps, I have FFG, which adds roughly 15% which...puts my Mercs at the soft cap. OK, it's just the Commando, the rest have to deal with level shifts, but it's a hell of a lot better than what I'm at now.

EDIT: Not sure how much help Leadership would be, since I just checked and it's less than 3% for MMs. But it's a hell of a place to start.

EDIT2: Damnit. I was misinformed about all this. Disregard the whole thing.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
Since we can slot both the regular and the enhanced ones,
Are you sure about that? Because so far as I'm aware, you can only have 6 ATIO's on a single toon, you can have 6 normal, 6 Catalysed or a mixture of each adding up to 6 total, but so far as I'm aware, you can't have the same enhancement twice in catalysed and non catalysed form.

From http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/ATO :

"Standard and Superior enhancements of the same type are mutually exclusive; a character cannot slot both Blaster's Wrath: Accuracy/Damage and Blaster's Wrath: Accuracy/Damage (Superior)."

:edit: ah, you edited while I was looking things up and writing this, I'll leave this here for the link in case it's helpful to anyone.


Warning:

The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.

 

Posted

Yeah, was told that right after I posted, and I immediately ran to Beta for my own confirmation.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa View Post
However, those are not simply +controlduration enhancements. It's a Hold/Immob/Disorient/Sleep/Confuse duration enhancement.

there would be no nice way to have a +Special like that.
Of course there is (and I thought what I was proposing was an obvious parallel, though maybe my explanation outside of my own head was flawed)! You just listed it. Make it affect a variety of things like "Control Duration" does.

Make it a Heal/Def/Res/Immob/Hold/Slow/Stun/etc. enhancement - basically make it enhance everything that isn't End/Dam/Rchg/Acc. Just label it "Secondary Abilities". A bunch of the enhancement will obviously go to waste, much like the "Control Duration" does but it'll make it that much more unique/useful for Masterminds.


 

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Originally Posted by Redlynne View Post
Seconded ... and that goes double for any Mastermind who doesn't have access to Recharge Intensive Pets.
Especially since those sets are already disadvantaged in not getting access to call to arms and expedient reinforcement defense/resist procs.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo View Post
Of course there is (and I thought what I was proposing was an obvious parallel, though maybe my explanation outside of my own head was flawed)! You just listed it. Make it affect a variety of things like "Control Duration" does.

Make it a Heal/Def/Res/Immob/Hold/Slow/Stun/etc. enhancement - basically make it enhance everything that isn't End/Dam/Rchg/Acc. Just label it "Secondary Abilities". A bunch of the enhancement will obviously go to waste, much like the "Control Duration" does but it'll make it that much more unique/useful for Masterminds.
Barring technical issues that we aren't aware of (is there a limit to how many things an enhancement can effect?) that actually sounds like it would work.

And it would be AWESOME.

And yes, I also do agree that Mastermind primaries without Recharge Intensive Pets are currently faced with a unique disadvantage in the modern game, but I'm not sure what, if anything, could feasibly be done about it, since it would basically require several powers to be totally scrapped to fix...

Although considering it further, I don't think anyone would mourn Serum or Repair being removed. I honestly don't know what the popular opinion of Smoke Flash is, I've never been able to get past all of Ninjas' many (many, many, many) problems to actually play the set past 10.


@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
And yes, I also do agree that Mastermind primaries without Recharge Intensive Pets are currently faced with a unique disadvantage in the modern game, but I'm not sure what, if anything, could feasibly be done about it, since it would basically require several powers to be totally scrapped to fix...
The simplest possible thing to do would be to allow ALL Mastermind Primary Pet Powers to slot Recharge Intensive Pets.

No fuss ... no muss.
Problem SOLVED.
It's a simple database edit ... which makes you wonder why it hasn't been done yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
Although considering it further, I don't think anyone would mourn Serum or Repair being removed.
Serum for Mercs is just another one of those Monument To BAD GAME DESIGN legacy bits of coding that really just need to be completely overhauled. First thing I'd do to it would be to turn it into a 60 ft PBAoE (ie. Supremacy radius) Click that affects all Mercs, not just one ... and then go about improving the details of the power.

A friend of mine plays a Robotics Mastermind, and he *swears* by Repair (in a good way) as a Fast Heal for a Bot. Or were you thinking of a different Repair power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
I honestly don't know what the popular opinion of Smoke Flash is, I've never been able to get past all of Ninjas' many (many, many, many) problems to actually play the set past 10.
Smoke Flash is ... kludgy. It's basically a Pet Placate (ala Stalkers), but the Hide (and double damage) doesn't wear off for 10 seconds, so it's a bit more like Build Up in that respect. My main problem with the power is the extreme Endurance Cost of it (even when reduced by slotting) and the fact that it affects only ONE Ninja, which you have to Target ... rather than being a 60 ft PBAoE Click which affects ALL of your Ninjas simultaneously. I'd much rather have a PBAoE Smoke Flash that lasted 5 seconds, than a Single Target Smoke Flash that lasted for 10 seconds (and required me to switch targets to use, most of the time). Use of Smoke Flash requires a lot more "Flying the Gauges" in the workload of your attention span, which is a familiar experience to any Empath, World Of Pain or Time Manipulation driver. Without Smoke Flash, you can keep your attention centered on the "action" happening on screen where the enemy is, without needing to be (as) constantly aware of your Pet Status window (and if you have any of them selected as your Target within it).

Of course, one of the ways around that problem is the Target Of Target system ... where you Target a Foe, and whatever THEY are targeting becomes the beneficiary of Smoke Flash (and so long as that's a Ninja Pet, it works).


It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
Barring technical issues that we aren't aware of (is there a limit to how many things an enhancement can effect?) that actually sounds like it would work.
Probably not, but at some point balance does need to factor into it.

Quote:
Although considering it further, I don't think anyone would mourn Serum or Repair being removed. I honestly don't know what the popular opinion of Smoke Flash is, I've never been able to get past all of Ninjas' many (many, many, many) problems to actually play the set past 10.
Most likely they wouldn't be removed due to the cottage rule, but they could certainly be improved. Smoke Flash can be nice on a Jounin (ST) or the Oni (AoE) and it can be made perma, however it costs an obnoxious amount of endurance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlynne View Post
The simplest possible thing to do would be to allow ALL Mastermind Primary Pet Powers to slot Recharge Intensive Pets.

No fuss ... no muss.
Problem SOLVED.
It's a simple database edit ... which makes you wonder why it hasn't been done yet.
If they did such a thing they would probably just combine the pool of pet sets and recharge pet sets into one set category (which they should have just done from the get-go imo). However this doesn't fix the issue that pets aren't affected by recharge, it wouldn't make sense to give recharge boosting enhancements to pets that don't benefit from it, even with the 2 procs existing that mess with balance.

Quote:
Smoke Flash is ... kludgy. It's basically a Pet Placate (ala Stalkers), but the Hide (and double damage) doesn't wear off for 10 seconds, so it's a bit more like Build Up in that respect. My main problem with the power is the extreme Endurance Cost of it (even when reduced by slotting) and the fact that it affects only ONE Ninja, which you have to Target ... rather than being a 60 ft PBAoE Click which affects ALL of your Ninjas simultaneously. I'd much rather have a PBAoE Smoke Flash that lasted 5 seconds, than a Single Target Smoke Flash that lasted for 10 seconds (and required me to switch targets to use, most of the time). Use of Smoke Flash requires a lot more "Flying the Gauges" in the workload of your attention span, which is a familiar experience to any Empath, World Of Pain or Time Manipulation driver. Without Smoke Flash, you can keep your attention centered on the "action" happening on screen where the enemy is, without needing to be (as) constantly aware of your Pet Status window (and if you have any of them selected as your Target within it).

Of course, one of the ways around that problem is the Target Of Target system ... where you Target a Foe, and whatever THEY are targeting becomes the beneficiary of Smoke Flash (and so long as that's a Ninja Pet, it works).
As mentioned the main issue with Smoke Flash is it's massive endurance cost. The fact that it only affects one pet is fine because it can be made perma. Being able to keep 1 pet in perma crit mode is pretty good. It just costs way to much endurance for it to be viable to do so. If they changed it to affect all pets (potentially without having to retarget) would probably mean changing it to only affect the next attack the pet makes, which would be fine if you could edit their AI, but you can't.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
Although considering it further, I don't think anyone would mourn Serum or Repair being removed.
I'd miss Repair.

An uninterruptible instant heal to full with some +end for one of your pets? it's kept my Assault Bot alive more times than enough, even since I got a Rebirth Destiny. The fact that 2 or 3 recharge SO's is all the slotting it really needs is a bonus.

Of course I'd use it far less if they'd fix the blasted AI on the bots so they didn't think that lasers and plasma cannon needed to be used at point blank range.... <sigh>


Warning:

The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo View Post
Of course there is (and I thought what I was proposing was an obvious parallel, though maybe my explanation outside of my own head was flawed)! You just listed it. Make it affect a variety of things like "Control Duration" does.

Make it a Heal/Def/Res/Immob/Hold/Slow/Stun/etc. enhancement - basically make it enhance everything that isn't End/Dam/Rchg/Acc. Just label it "Secondary Abilities". A bunch of the enhancement will obviously go to waste, much like the "Control Duration" does but it'll make it that much more unique/useful for Masterminds.
Basically, you want a Power Boost Aura with the addition of +res.