New Spring Fling missions [SPOILERS]


Agent White

 

Posted

I've always thought I'm not going to start complaining on these forums about the writing in this game because if I start, I may never stop. And seasonal missions are naturally going to be the worst since they're written on a tight schedule and are only going to be visible for a short time anyway.

With that in mind, let me complain on these forums about the writing in these seasonal missions.

SPOILERS (seriously)








1) I'm an Archmage. Seriously, that's what the badge says: "Your research into the arcane, coupled with your experience in fighting magical foes, has unlocked heretofore unknown magics within you, earning you the title of Archmage." Surely I would have a better handle on how to use a magical ritual rather than "mutter some spells I heard somewhere once and hope for the best"? Minor gripe, can't write for everyone, most heroes are not magic scholars, I know.

2) Why does my character's life have to be linked to that of Red Widow? My character is a hero. She doesn't need much additional reason to go save the life of someone she's just brought back from the dead.

3) I haven't worked with Miss Duncan a day and already I'm entering a warehouse, beating up security and trying to steal an artifact that the owner, as far as I know, has not aquired illegally. I should probably quit before I wind up wearing white and red spandex taking a flamethower to homeless people on foreign soil.

Okay, so it is Crey, who are fairly throughly corrupt, but my sole justification is "I need that thing to mess with someone's mind and the Countess won't give it to me". There is pretty much no way I can look at this and see myself as a hero.

4) On a villain character, I decide to try out Arbiter Hawk's version, and suddenly all becomes clear. It is *exactly* the same story except with "Longbow psychology profilers predict Recluse might become a little less obsessed" replaced with "Arachnos Fortunatas forsee a GLORIOUS FUTURE where Arachnos rules all".

So what I *suspect* happened is that the writers wrote the villain arc first - with the "you have to stop her getting killed or you'll die too" motivation, and the "someone has an artifact I want so I'll break into their place and rob them" and then did the equivalent of search-and-replace to make the hero arc. Heroes are always running around doing anything a contact tells them with the vague promise of 'world better somehow' at the end of it, anyway.

Is this an attempt at making us emphathise with villain players who complain about their content being merely copy-paste of hero content? Or is this an attempt at evening out the quality of red and blueside by lowering the latter instead of raising the former?

In summary, Jessica Duncan's arc is the lowest point in my enjoyment of CoH writing at least since AE was introduced. Even the writing in the Trials has never been bad enough that I wanted to complain on the forums about it.




Character index

 

Posted

I haven't run the Hero arc yet, but the timing seems kind of unfortunate. What with Statesman being recently departed, I'm wondering why Ms Liberty is going to the trouble of trying to bring back someone else.


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Of a genius smashing expectations

- Jonathan Coulton

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokalus View Post
I haven't run the Hero arc yet, but the timing seems kind of unfortunate. What with Statesman being recently departed, I'm wondering why Ms Liberty is going to the trouble of trying to bring back someone else.
To test if it works or not?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Gale View Post
Okay, so it is Crey, who are fairly throughly corrupt, but my sole justification is "I need that thing to mess with someone's mind and the Countess won't give it to me". There is pretty much no way I can look at this and see myself as a hero.
This is what galls me the most, and not just about this arc. At some point in time, we appear to have gotten a writer who decided that subtlety and immersion are for squares, daddy-o, and thus broke all of the game's "secrets" out into the open. Crey Industries are obviously evil and you have to wonder why everyone related to the company isn't in jail yet, Malta is widely known to the world as early as level 20 and everyone knows about them, Virgil Duray is the leader of the Sky Raiders who are American soldiers who fled into mutiny and that whole story about finding that out is moot, everyone knows Vanessa DeVore is the leader of the Carnival of Shadows and how she manages to be a "socialite" as opposed to "wanted criminal" is anyone's guess... Oh, and the Rikti are human, lest we forget.

See, because we, as players, know these things from previous playthroughs, then obviously the world at large knows these things, right? Right? Never you mind that that makes a whole lot of stories, not to mention large chunks of the persistent world, nonsensical and pointless.

Crey Industries is a legal business. Their property, personnel and trade secrets are protected by US law. Trespassing in their facilities, assaulting their personnel and destroying or stealing their equipment are still crimes. There's such a thing called "due process." It law enforcement, a court of law and legal proceedings. That's precisely WHY Crey still exists - because their shark lawyers are good at bending the rules of the system and the Countess is good at covering up her tracks. If we raid one of their installations, it should only ever be done with a court order, a search warrant or otherwise with some form of justification above and beyond "Their evil, go steal their stuff!"

There is such a thing as subtlety, writers. There are villains who are not just an openly evil paramilitary organisation who stand on street corners, belly-laughing about "Ho ho ho! We're so evil!" The fight against crime isn't always literally a fight. Not all problems can be solved by finding the right person to punch in the face. The fighting is done done for its own sake. Ultimately, it has to serve a larger purpose, and in the case of Crey, proving that Countess Crey is a criminal IS that larger picture. But you know what? Corporate law being what it is, the actual Crey Corporation can survive even after the Countess and all her cronies are in jail. A "corporation" is a non-sentient entity that cannot be accused of a crime. At best, it can have all of its property and finances ceased to repay outstanding debts, but there's nothing stopping its investors from carrying on in name only. After all, they're only in the cost of their investment, they don't incur any of the corporation's actual debts.

What I'm saying is that Crey is not a "paramilitary" villain group, but rather a "clandestine" villain group. Like Malta, like the Family, like all the Nemesis shell companies, they present a front that is not only believable as a legitimate business, but which uses and abuses the protection of the law. You can't go busting into Crey labs and stealing tech any more than you can go busting into Portal Corps labs and stealing their portal generators. Not if you want to stay on the right side of the law.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Speaking of spoilers ... I haven't run the hero side version yet, but on the villain side, DJ Zero tells you in passing that Julianne Thompson is Countess Crey. There's the setup for "The Evil Countess Crey" blown. (He also tells you that Vanessa DeVore is the leader of the Carnies, but that one has long since been spoiled by other new content.)


34 heroes,
20 villains, Victory, Justice, Infinity, Virtue, Triumph, Exalted -- some more active than others

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finsplit View Post
Speaking of spoilers ... I haven't run the hero side version yet, but on the villain side, DJ Zero tells you in passing that Julianne Thompson is Countess Crey. There's the setup for "The Evil Countess Crey" blown. (He also tells you that Vanessa DeVore is the leader of the Carnies, but that one has long since been spoiled by other new content.)
While technically spoilers, the only way our characters or ourselves could possibly even care that these are spoiled if we had some sort of prior connection to Vanessa or the Countess such that we're shocked that they're not who we thought they were.

The story really doesn't set up these reveals as being... in any way significant. If they were originally low level mentors and contacts... yes. But, I don't see how anyone would be emotionally invested that this is spoiled.


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Posted

Currently the writing formula seems to be blueside = redside - content.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
While technically spoilers, the only way our characters or ourselves could possibly even care that these are spoiled if we had some sort of prior connection to Vanessa or the Countess such that we're shocked that they're not who we thought they were.

The story really doesn't set up these reveals as being... in any way significant. If they were originally low level mentors and contacts... yes. But, I don't see how anyone would be emotionally invested that this is spoiled.
Or unless I happened to do "The Evil Countess Crey" after this mission, since the arc assumes your character doesn't know who Julianne Thompson is. It's not "technically" a spoiler, it is a spoiler period. It's no different than, for instance, if a contact told me the Rikti were actually human before I'd even done "The Organ Grinders" or the RWZ.


34 heroes,
20 villains, Victory, Justice, Infinity, Virtue, Triumph, Exalted -- some more active than others

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Gale View Post
Is this an attempt at making us emphasize with villain players who complain about their content being merely copy-paste of hero content? Or is this an attempt at evening out the quality of red and blueside by lowering the latter instead of raising the former?

In summary, Jessica Duncan's arc is the lowest point in my enjoyment of CoH writing at least since AE was introduced. Even the writing in the Trials has never been bad enough that I wanted to complain on the forums about it.
I think you meant to use the word 'empathize', not 'emphasize', they mean entirely different things >>

And as it stands. I kind of have to agree, it really seems like whoever is directing the writing team leans more toward redside. The SSAs are typically slanted in Red's favor, this is, First Ward is kind of dubious.

My guess is mostly time constraints, but it is a bit disappointing that when given an opportunity like this to show both sides of a story, we just get the same story with slight changes.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
This is what galls me the most, and not just about this arc. At some point in time, we appear to have gotten a writer who decided that subtlety and immersion are for squares, daddy-o, and thus broke all of the game's "secrets" out into the open. Crey Industries are obviously evil and you have to wonder why everyone related to the company isn't in jail yet, Malta is widely known to the world as early as level 20 and everyone knows about them, Virgil Duray is the leader of the Sky Raiders who are American soldiers who fled into mutiny and that whole story about finding that out is moot, everyone knows Vanessa DeVore is the leader of the Carnival of Shadows and how she manages to be a "socialite" as opposed to "wanted criminal" is anyone's guess... Oh, and the Rikti are human, lest we forget.

See, because we, as players, know these things from previous playthroughs, then obviously the world at large knows these things, right? Right? Never you mind that that makes a whole lot of stories, not to mention large chunks of the persistent world, nonsensical and pointless.
I can forgive a LOT of things, and even rationalize what the Dev's are thinking until this, well said, point comes up.

If levels = time, then things shouldn't be revealed before that level, lest the story arc, when you reach it, becomes meaningless. I LOVED the eloquence of this concept, but it has since fallen to the wayside in the name of efficiency for whatever's convenient to whatever we want to do in X level range at the time, and frankly, confuses new players who actually try to follow every storyline they can.

I understand that time moves forward, but if they're going to bring it into lower levels, they need to retire story arcs and start dating things in the Oroborous as to why they retired X.

There are those of us who do actually care what our heroes and villians experience and when they do so. I'm not a rules lawyer by any definition (hating the type as a GM myself) but there's still something that needs to be observed in terms of 'old' vs. new' and how it previously applied to time = levels, because that doesn't seem the case as much as it used to. What's the point of doing the arc where you find out Rikti are humans from another continuum when it's discussed in an arc at an earlier level? Either retire the older arc (and put in Oroborous- this, too, is important) and make a new arc with that contact that reflects that new reveal, or if you don't want to change it, respect the timeline in terms of levels and set it for a later point. The former takes more time and effort on their part (having to re-write arcs and whatnot) however making it available to players at an earlier level. The latter is more cohesive but more restrictive to the levels that can access it. Unless you chose as the Dev's appeared to, by sacrificing overall quality of the game's story itself, one or the other should be observed.

Frankly, while it's convenient to ignore from a development standpoint, it's confusing to those who actually care about how, and when, the world develops in any given characer's carreer.

I've been with this game a loooong time, and genuinely care about the story and how it plays out. There's a certain level of professionalism I expect the ones who ultimately control the history, and future, of this game to care about as much, if not more, than I, who just plays the game. Just sayin'.

EDIT: And to reiterate something someone else pointed out in another context:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
See, because we, as players, know these things from previous playthroughs, then obviously the world at large knows these things, right? Right? Never you mind that that makes a whole lot of stories, not to mention large chunks of the persistent world, nonsensical and pointless.
Every day is somebody's first time playing the game. (or we should assume this). Almost every day in Help chat I see a new player to the game who's asking questions. Not every player is a veteran, no matter how many are... (I know you get this, Sam, and this is more about pointing this out to the Dev's than you.)


"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finsplit View Post
Speaking of spoilers ... I haven't run the hero side version yet, but on the villain side, DJ Zero tells you in passing that Julianne Thompson is Countess Crey. There's the setup for "The Evil Countess Crey" blown. (He also tells you that Vanessa DeVore is the leader of the Carnies, but that one has long since been spoiled by other new content.)
And if you ask him about it, he tells you to forget it, because you shouldn't know it yet.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
While technically spoilers, the only way our characters or ourselves could possibly even care that these are spoiled if we had some sort of prior connection to Vanessa or the Countess such that we're shocked that they're not who we thought they were.

The story really doesn't set up these reveals as being... in any way significant. If they were originally low level mentors and contacts... yes. But, I don't see how anyone would be emotionally invested that this is spoiled.
The problem isn't that Countess Crey is Julianne Tompson as opposed to Mary Sue or Jane Doe or that the leader of the Carnival's name is spelled Vanessa with a double S. The point is that the identities of these people are not supposed to be known. Not only are there stories that deal with uncovering this information, but actually knowing it makes a lot of things moot.

Countess Crey is actually a fairly easy example. In-game, she's free from persecution because for all anyone knows, she's just a rich business woman who's not in complete control of her company. When it's revealed that Countess Crey is NOT actually Clarissa Von Dorn, but is in fact Julianne Thompson, a woman who murdered Clarissa, stole her identity, married Count Crey, took his money and he then "mysteriously" fell ill, that's pretty much when the ball drops and "Countess Crey" turns from a businesswoman with good lawyers into a fugitive criminal that no amount of legal aid can save. She committed a murder, she committed massive fraud, she committed identity theft, and all of this is easily provable.

It doesn't really matter what Countess Crey's name is. What matters is we can't prove she's a criminal. If I know that Countess Crey is Julianne Thompson, I can have her supposed body exhumed, tested and discover that the body is that of Clarissa Von Dorn, instead, thus proving that the impostor Clarissa is... Well, an impostor. This isn't something you can toss out willy-nilly because that's the crucial bit of information that finally brings her down.

---

City of Heroes has lacked decent pacing for years now. There's just no mystery to anything any more, at least not in any way that lasts. Either the "mystery" is revealed within the same arc it pops up, or it takes four ******* years for anything to come of it because the original writers of the mystery didn't actually plan for what the mystery actually WAS.

And to top it all off, there simply isn't any replay value to any of these mysteries, because once a secret is revealed, the writers now treat it as obvious and shove the "truth" in every bit of new content there is. New players, then, never get to experience any of the good mysteries of the old game, because they're spoiled all over the place. In fact, I don't know what mysteries they CAN enjoy... It's all just piles and piles of convoluted continuity where nothing is really secret at any given time. All the past secrets have been spoiled and the present holds no new secrets worth considering, because every new story is pulled out of thin air and never established beforehand.

Do you know what I liked about the mysteries of the old game? That I didn't really realise they WERE mysteries until I actually delved into them. It inspired me to question my first impressions and look for greater depth in all stories, and honestly... Most of them had it. Not only that, but it inspired me to place greater debt into my own fiction and writing. I honestly don't get why we're systematically backfilling all that depth until the story is a flat "this happened then this happened then this happened."

Why?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

All that said, and there are STILL more disparaging remarks to be made about this mission.

First off, is Ms. Liberty out of her flippin' mind?!?

She is Statesman's Grand Daughter. Leader of the Vindicators and her own faction of Longbow. She has all these connections and doesn't get some big kahuna NPC wizard to cast this spell? She just sends off a random hero who may or may not have experience casting spells, with no concise instructions, to travel to the netherworld and resurrect a high ranking Arachnos assassin?!?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

None of my heroes would have really taken this mission. I would have rounded up Positron, Castella, and Azuria and had a nice little intervention for Ms. Liberty... Preferably in the mental ward in the bloody Zig!

From top to bottom, the hero side of this arc makes NO sense! I could have gotten a better plot from a 5 year old! It is truly the worst story I have ever seen in CoH, INCLUDING AE arcs.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loviatha View Post
She is Statesman's Grand Daughter. Leader of the Vindicators and her own faction of Longbow. She has all these connections and doesn't get some big kahuna NPC wizard to cast this spell? She just sends off a random hero who may or may not have experience casting spells, with no concise instructions, to travel to the netherworld and resurrect a high ranking Arachnos assassin?!?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
But the Psycops saw the future and if we get Recluse laid he'll chill out! lol, I'm with you on Jessica's motivation being a little dumb. I mean that's like there being a mission where Dr. Aeon is feeling blue so we give him his death ray back. And the arc's ending text,

Ms. Liberty: Well, hope that wasn't a colossal mistake.

I'm doubting Ms. Liberty's competence as a leader of anything.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC View Post
I'm with you on Jessica's motivation being a little dumb.
So that's what her first name is. Well, that's one mystery solved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finsplit View Post
Or unless I happened to do "The Evil Countess Crey" after this mission, since the arc assumes your character doesn't know who Julianne Thompson is. It's not "technically" a spoiler, it is a spoiler period. It's no different than, for instance, if a contact told me the Rikti were actually human before I'd even done "The Organ Grinders" or the RWZ.
I'm shocked the Rikti are alternate dimension humans because I happen to know humanity and am surprised that the Rikti are human and not the aliens I've been led to believe for 30 levels.

I'm not shocked that Countess Crey is JT because I (nor my characters) know neither who Countess Crey is supposed to be or who JT is.

Spoiling the Rikti surprise would make me sad and angry that I missed out on the shock of the reveal. Spoiling the Countess Crey surprise would make me feel *nothing*.

OK, so, let's not use the term 'technically a spoiler' but 'an insignificant spoiler.' And the spoilation makes me go: Yeah? So what?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent White View Post
I think you meant to use the word 'empathize', not 'emphasize', they mean entirely different things >>
I would like to emphasize that I absolutely *do* know the difference between 'empathise' and 'emphasize', and I'm sure anyone who has ever confused two uncommon words can emphathize with my error.




Character index

 

Posted

OK, it wasn't just me scratching my head over this one.

I've played through the hero arc, and my in-character thought walking away from that first mission briefing was "OK, she's seriously coming apart at the seams here. I'll play along with this until we can get a team together to try to talk her down. There's no way this ritual is going to work, anyway. This could get really messy in the long term. If we can't get her to see sense, we're going to need an interim leader for Longbow. Her judgment is just plain shot..."

It just makes no sense. Even if she was cracked enough to start messing with the barrier between life and death (always a bad idea, no matter how pure your motives) I can think of two people off-hand whose resurrection should have been a lot higher on her list, but she doesn't even consider this and wants to restore a known assassin and villain instead? Huhn?

If Ms Liberty had led us to discover a plan being enacted by Arachnos, then when suddenly confronted with what the villain was actually plotting, she is unsure that stopping it was the right thing to do and maybe even has us help her finish the job, that would have been at least a little believable. Initiating such a scheme, though, regardless of what kind of advice she's getting? It makes my head hurt.


 

Posted

Haven't run these missions yet, but after reading some of the stuff here, I may have come up with some reasonable justification for Liberty's decision.

Considering the events that led to the deaths in her family were done through magical rituals it's possible that those people can't be brought back to life(or that the ritual can specifically only bring back people that died fighting) so with these limitations in mind it would makes sense why Statesman or her mother aren't the targets for the ritual.

Now with that in mind why target Red Widow? Because Recluse is the only true family she has left and if she can bring him some happiness, he may open up to her and then she'll have emotional support from a family.

Alternatively if she's really gone over she may be trying to set up a surrogate family with Recluse and Red Widow filling the voids she now has.

Also alternatively she may be targeting Red Widow to see how/if the Ritual Works, and if there any drawbacks to the ritual they would be Recluse's problem not hers.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Gale View Post
I would like to emphasize that I absolutely *do* know the difference between 'empathise' and 'emphasize', and I'm sure anyone who has ever confused two uncommon words can emphathize with my error.
So would 'emphathizing' being emphasizing our empathizing?







Okay, so, it was a typo. Doesn't mean I can't have a little fun with it!


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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

I think it's mostly funny that getting Lord Recluse a girlfriend diminishes his desire to go conquer the world.

The way to stop Emperor Cole is to get him a wife. The old ball and chain will never let him go on any interdimensional wars when he's got to go visit the in-laws!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Crey Industries is a legal business. Their property, personnel and trade secrets are protected by US law. Trespassing in their facilities, assaulting their personnel and destroying or stealing their equipment are still crimes. There's such a thing called "due process." It law enforcement, a court of law and legal proceedings. That's precisely WHY Crey still exists - because their shark lawyers are good at bending the rules of the system and the Countess is good at covering up her tracks. If we raid one of their installations, it should only ever be done with a court order, a search warrant or otherwise with some form of justification above and beyond "Their evil, go steal their stuff!"

There is such a thing as subtlety, writers. There are villains who are not just an openly evil paramilitary organisation who stand on street corners, belly-laughing about "Ho ho ho! We're so evil!" The fight against crime isn't always literally a fight. Not all problems can be solved by finding the right person to punch in the face. The fighting is done done for its own sake. Ultimately, it has to serve a larger purpose, and in the case of Crey, proving that Countess Crey is a criminal IS that larger picture. But you know what? Corporate law being what it is, the actual Crey Corporation can survive even after the Countess and all her cronies are in jail. A "corporation" is a non-sentient entity that cannot be accused of a crime. At best, it can have all of its property and finances ceased to repay outstanding debts, but there's nothing stopping its investors from carrying on in name only. After all, they're only in the cost of their investment, they don't incur any of the corporation's actual debts.
I can't argue with the logic, but I don't want to play a game called City of Attorneys.

PS I agree with you wholeheartedly on the way 'secret' villain organizations have been made far too transparent. In the early days of the game playing through the arcs (and some of the non-arc missions) actually let you in on information that wasn't available to the general public. It added a lot to my enjoyment to find out through missions that the Circle of Thorns were more than just a modern day group of mystics or that the Lost have been mutated by the Rikti. Now when Anton Sampson says he isn't sure if the 'New' Nemesis is the same person as the original I want to shake him and say, "Of course he's the same! It says so in this brochure they gave me when I first got to the city!"


_________
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
The way to stop Emperor Cole is to get him a wife.
Maybe he could just marry his longtime girlfriend?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Maybe he could just marry his longtime girlfriend?
No, that would drive Anti-Matter so far over the edge he'd probably put his whole complex on overload and turn all of Praetoria City into a wasteland.


_________
@Inquisitor