I give up... What about Inventions?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-02-04 24:53 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Unfortunately, there's a level of complexity that's pretty much unavoidable in a game that wants to provide a certain level of flexibility in how you achieve strength. And, in a good design, it ideally shouldn't be possible to point at something and say, "This is clearly better than that, in all cases." Things should be contextual, depend on what else is involved, and that means a lot of details to consider.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I am serious. I really don't like a game of percent points, especially when they come in bundles. It's not the math that bothers me, it's that it's next to impossible to come to a conclusion using empirical methods. It's a few percent here, a few percent there, and it doesn't begin to get noticeable until it adds up.
SOs may have made for tougher choices, but at least everything I did with them, I felt, because SO bonuses come in large chunks. I can tell my powers are more accurate, I can tell they cost less, I can tell they hit harder. I guess I'll be seeing the proc from time to time, but other than that, it's percent points. Again, that's just me disliking the system as intended, and it's probably unreconcilable at this point. I'll make the best I can out of it, but it's always going to bug me. It's just how I'm built. |
If this is something that will always bother you, then you'll probably always be happier with common IOs.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
Quote:
Yeah, that's why Mids exists. SOs work well for 'feel', and they helped the game survive pre-Real Numbers because of that. That's gross tweaking, whereas working with IOs and optimizing set bonuses is fine-tuning. And it does all add up eventually; you wouldn't think 3% defense here and 3% defense there can eventually make you near-invincible, but it certainly does. It helps to have a simulator so you can see the totals and figure out if what you're doing is right for what you want to do.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I am serious. I really don't like a game of percent points, especially when they come in bundles. It's not the math that bothers me, it's that it's next to impossible to come to a conclusion using empirical methods. It's a few percent here, a few percent there, and it doesn't begin to get noticeable until it adds up.
SOs may have made for tougher choices, but at least everything I did with them, I felt, because SO bonuses come in large chunks. I can tell my powers are more accurate, I can tell they cost less, I can tell they hit harder. I guess I'll be seeing the proc from time to time, but other than that, it's percent points. Again, that's just me disliking the system as intended, and it's probably unreconcilable at this point. I'll make the best I can out of it, but it's always going to bug me. It's just how I'm built. |
But judging effectiveness by playing the game and noticing if you hit harder or don't get hit as much isn't 'empirical methods', that's casual observation. Empirical methods work fine for determining small changes too; if I add 2% To-hit, I can figure out that out of 100 attacks I'm hitting with 2 more attacks than I did before by reviewing the combat log and counting hits and misses. The difference isn't whether there's an actual improvement or change, but whether you notice that change without relying on measuring tools.
I mean, I do get what you're saying and I understand what you mean, but small changes do affect the game in the same way big changes do; it's just the degree that differs.
Quote:
|
I considered just dropping a slot (probably the Proc, since that looks like it's the most expensive) and putting something else in there. However, Mids' says the defence bonus which is the entire point I'm even messing with Mako's Bite to begin with comes from having all six enhancements, so that doesn't look like it's an option. If it weren't for that defence buff, I'd stuff a Crushing Impact in there and walk away smiling. Of course, it's always possible I'm wrong or I saw wrong or I interpreted wrong, so feel free to correct me. |
Mainly I just wanted to provide some reassurance that the proc is not actually a wasted slot, and will do more for you than a bit of Damage enhancement in the long run. Hell, that 14.35 average damage is 22% of Power Slice's base damage and 30% of Nimble Slash's. That isn't even touched by ED; the only way you can match that kind of damage increase is with T3 or T4 Musculature once Damage enhancement is capped out.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
I know |
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
If this is something that will always bother you, then you'll probably always be happier with common IOs.
|
Truth be told, if I feel that was an option, I'd have stuck with Commons. However, the longer I do, the more I feel like the game is simply leaving me behind and expecting me to use Set Inventions. If you'll read the original post, that's essentially what it says. Hell, that's what the title says. If I could stick with Commons, I would. Hell, if I could use multi-aspect enhancements without the added set bonuses and set restrictions, I would. For SR, I'm just not convinced that's an option.That said, I found that just using Uncommons worked just as well. The enhancement values worked out well enough when I tried it on Crash, and the bonuses weren't unwelcome. However, for Crash, there really wasn't anything specific that I wanted. She was just fine even without Sets, therefore anything she got was a benefit. With Kim, I feel like I need those defences, or I would never have even considered Mako's Bite. That, really, is what bothers me.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Yeah, that's why Mids exists. SOs work well for 'feel', and they helped the game survive pre-Real Numbers because of that. That's gross tweaking, whereas working with IOs and optimizing set bonuses is fine-tuning. And it does all add up eventually; you wouldn't think 3% defense here and 3% defense there can eventually make you near-invincible, but it certainly does. It helps to have a simulator so you can see the totals and figure out if what you're doing is right for what you want to do.
|
I get that that's just how RPGs work, even down to D&D itself if your players were min-maxers. But I'll always prefer the game to the stats, and would actually prefer a game WITHOUT the stats if at all possible. I like to fight stuff, you know?
---
None of that is to say I'm ungrateful - far from it. Thank you, everybody, for the advice. I'm already working on making this build, and I'm close enough to seeing how it would work.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Well, for what it's worth, while I have characters I IO the hell out of (like my blaster), but a lot of my characters run on SOs and commons (with the occasional proc added). I do honestly believe SR is perfectly servicable in normal play without a high end invention build, and I find it difficult to imagine any melee AT powerset combination that's at any risk of being 'left behind' in any practical sense.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I know
Truth be told, if I feel that was an option, I'd have stuck with Commons. However, the longer I do, the more I feel like the game is simply leaving me behind and expecting me to use Set Inventions. If you'll read the original post, that's essentially what it says. Hell, that's what the title says. If I could stick with Commons, I would. Hell, if I could use multi-aspect enhancements without the added set bonuses and set restrictions, I would. For SR, I'm just not convinced that's an option. |
I know it's late in the conversation, but I really do think it isn't worth stressing over. As someone who enjoys fussing with IO builds as a minigame, sometimes I just want to roll up a character and go punch/shoot/whatever people, and I don't bother worrying about slotting. I do think this option is still there for you, regardless of what others might think.
But if you really want to do more.. I strongly suggest pretending set bonuses don't exist. Just go for frankenslotting. It's cheap, it's quick, and there isn't the same degree of facet juggling; all you have to do is add up all of the aspects from all of the pieces.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
Quote:
Defence-based sets are really the only place where I'm worried, to be honest, and Dark Astoria is the only reason I'm worried to begin with. Under normal circumstances, 30-35% defence is perfectly OK. It's not great, but it's enough to make me feel confident. Trouble is, Dark Astoria enemies have a higher base to-hit, and not just by a little. That, to me, is a disproportionate problem for defence-based sets since I've fought the Knives of Vengeance and the Banished Pantheon, and the DA Tsoo, and they don't ignore parts of my resistance or health or regeneration as far as I can tell. That's why I feel Crash - my SS/Inv Brute - didn't need much help while I feel Kim does.|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Well, for what it's worth, while I have characters I IO the hell out of (like my blaster), but a lot of my characters run on SOs and commons (with the occasional proc added). I do honestly believe SR is perfectly servicable in normal play without a high end invention build, and I find it difficult to imagine any melee AT powerset combination that's at any risk of being 'left behind' in any practical sense.
|
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. It just seems to me like Dark Astoria expects me to be packing defence-granting Inventions sets and so sets the accuracy of its critters accordingly. That's why I feel SR needs help. I'd be glad to be wrong, of course.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Just to be clear on the bit a few posts back about replacing CIs with the ATEs, you end up with a net gain on recharge, not a loss. The "standard" (non-purple) ATEs give a Stalker 8.75% +recharge for 5 slots, where CIs give 5% for five slots.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
You're not wrong. This is the same thing Arcanaville spent so much time being one of the most vocal opponents of back before I7, because back then critters over +0 and over minion rank got +toHit, and that was disproportionately hard on sets like SR. Now, years later the devs have turned around and basically replicated that for Incarnate critters (and, mysteriously, for all level 50+ DE). Critters in Incarnate contexts have what amounts to +14% toHit, on top of anything else they might do that's bad for defense sets. So it's exactly as if your 30-35% defense was 16-21% defense in the rest of the game.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. It just seems to me like Dark Astoria expects me to be packing defence-granting Inventions sets and so sets the accuracy of its critters accordingly. That's why I feel SR needs help. I'd be glad to be wrong, of course.
|
This was somewhat possible to overlook in the iTrials, since the leagues are so large and +def buffs tend to be plentiful. It stands out like a sore thumb in DA, though, where they have stated that they expressly tuned the content for solo characters or very small teams. You aren't nearly so likely to be swimming in +defense buffs in that context, and the mobs automatically ignore something 1/3 to 1/2 of the defense of an SO'd build for defense sets.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
This is what I get for skimming; I somehow overlooked the fact that Kim was a stalker. I always have a moment of amazement that people actually play SR stalkers (instead of abandon them midway through their career), because to me that set is kind of messed up (especially when Ninjutsu is standing over there being superior).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Defence-based sets are really the only place where I'm worried, to be honest, and Dark Astoria is the only reason I'm worried to begin with. Under normal circumstances, 30-35% defence is perfectly OK. It's not great, but it's enough to make me feel confident. Trouble is, Dark Astoria enemies have a higher base to-hit, and not just by a little. That, to me, is a disproportionate problem for defence-based sets since I've fought the Knives of Vengeance and the Banished Pantheon, and the DA Tsoo, and they don't ignore parts of my resistance or health or regeneration as far as I can tell. That's why I feel Crash - my SS/Inv Brute - didn't need much help while I feel Kim does.
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. It just seems to me like Dark Astoria expects me to be packing defence-granting Inventions sets and so sets the accuracy of its critters accordingly. That's why I feel SR needs help. I'd be glad to be wrong, of course. |
Sadly, fixing that problem is outside the scope of this discussion.
Alright. I kind of see where you're coming from, particularly with the powers you seem to be favoring. I personally would have taken drastically different power picks if I'd somehow made a DB/SR stalker, among other things more pool +def and not Elude (I have a thing about crashing clickies), but... yeah, I guess this is an unfortunate edge case.
For what it's worth, if you can muddle through DA on -1/x1 long enough to assemble an Agility Radial or Nerve Radial for your alpha slot, that'll lighten some slotting load, and be a small improvement to your overall defense. Enough to be noticable, I expect.
I mean, just swapping out one power for Maneuvers (I picked Web Grenade at random), and slotting most of the defense powers (hide, focused fighting, focused senses, dodge, agile, evasion, maneuvers) with two L50 common defense IOs, tier 2 agility radial results in 40.9% melee and ranged, and 43.9% AoE.
Adding a couple L50 defense IOs to combat jumping is 41.7% melee and ranged.
This same slotting WITHOUT the alpha slot is still 38.2% melee and ranged, 41% AoE. Both of these are quite a bit better than the 30-35% you mentioned, and I'd expect it should be able to handle normal-ish difficulties in DA, maybe a little higher, with reasonable slotting in the rest of the build.
This doesn't change the fact that the praetorian +tohit is going to be rough on you, but it SHOULD still be managable.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
I would like to suggest an alternative path:
If you need better performance than you get with SOs or common IOs, but don't want to deal with the madness of fancy I/O builds focused on set bonuses:
Frankenslot. Just pick up whatever combos of things give you the bonuses you want. Four acc/dam/end IOs from different sets will give you roughly the equivalent of 2 each acc, dam, and end, for instance. In just four slots.
And honestly, outside of boutique builds, that's plenty. It'll move you from "pretty amazing" to "WOW DID THAT JUST HAPPEN?!?" without being nearly as expensive or complicated as fancier builds. You won't get perma-dom with it or anything like that, but you'll get enough pluses to make up for a lot.
Honestly, most of the time, the extent of fancy IO slotting I do is a kismet +tohit proc (it's really +tohit, not +accuracy), a -KB proc on characters that need one, and a steadfast protection res/def if I have a resistance power somewhere to slot it in. Past that, a lot of what I do is just look at the enhancement modifiers and ignore set bonuses.
Remember, Sam doesn't like mixing sets. We mentioned frankenslotting to him very early in the thread.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Good to know. I can never keep those straight. That's why I like to have a few big things to keep track of, as opposed to a zillion little things. Yeah, it doesn't make for as much flexibility, but when it comes to performance, I'm really more after something that works than something wholly custom and amazing.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Just to be clear on the bit a few posts back about replacing CIs with the ATEs, you end up with a net gain on recharge, not a loss. The "standard" (non-purple) ATEs give a Stalker 8.75% +recharge for 5 slots, where CIs give 5% for five slots.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You're not wrong. This is the same thing Arcanaville spent so much time being one of the most vocal opponents of back before I7, because back then critters over +0 and over minion rank got +toHit, and that was disproportionately hard on sets like SR. Now, years later the devs have turned around and basically replicated that for Incarnate critters (and, mysteriously, for all level 50+ DE). Critters in Incarnate contexts have what amounts to +14% toHit, on top of anything else they might do that's bad for defense sets. So it's exactly as if your 30-35% defense was 16-21% defense in the rest of the game.
|
Devouring Earth creatures in 45+ content have a higher base to-hit because their ranks are filled in from the Underground Trial critters, who have Incarnate to-hit. It's the same reason why those Resistence elites in Maria Jenkins' missions used to be HIDEOUSLY annoying, with the higher to-hit and constantly popping in and out of hide. Those seemed to have been fixed last I tried, however. They're still nasty, but they fight like regular 50 critters. As for the Devouring Earth, if you recall back in 2004, the only thing that spawned for them past 45 was Granites, the grey rock men. Granites today have the same old non-Incarnate to-hit because they're using the exact same critters as before. Everything else - trees, mushrooms and crystals - didn't exist, so it was ported from the Underground Trial directly. That may have been fixed, however, since they weren't punching through Kim's defences so readily when I fought them.That said, I agree with Arcana and I'm grateful for it. That Incarnate to-hit is easily my biggest problem with Dark Astoria. I can live with the enemies being nasty or having sinister powers or even naturally spawning in greater numbers as has been my experience. But just unanimously slapping them with a higher to-hit seems unfair to me, and a complete reversal of the idea that content wouldn't be designed to specifically NEED Inventions to be survivable. Like you, I don't mind this in Trials. With the way buffs stack, I can live with any cheat the developers come up with to challenge 24 player characters in one place. However, if the basic design of Dark Astoria was to be the path for solo and small teams, then "super Reflexes need not apply" just seems like the wrong way to do it. SR has enough problems as it is, even if Bill Z Bubba has managed to do wonders with it. Having it lose 14% of its defences just seems... A but much.
In the realm of repeating mistakes of the past, I was there when the Large Breasts Trial was actually the last mission of the last story arc, and it had me doing the Jackie Chan head grabbing emote, because that's the exact same clearly admitted mistake they made with the Hollows back in I2. And the solution then was to simply move the Caverns of Transcendence Trial as a separate mission given by a separate contact unlocked at the end of Talshak the Mystic's arc. And even so, it still left the story headless, because I have NEVER run this Trial and I simply have no idea what the deal is with the Minions of Igneous. If they repeated that mistake of the past, I can see them repeating the mistakes regarding to-hit. I just hope those get addressed eventually.
I get that Dark Astoria needs to be harder. I'd just rather it were harder in the same way as Malta or the Rogue Vanguard or the Soldiers of Rularuu are harder, as opposed to just taking a bite out of my defence numbers. Suddenly having my powers worth less makes me feel less like everything's harder and more like I suck, all of a sudden.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
This is what I get for skimming; I somehow overlooked the fact that Kim was a stalker. I always have a moment of amazement that people actually play SR stalkers (instead of abandon them midway through their career), because to me that set is kind of messed up (especially when Ninjutsu is standing over there being superior).
|
Hell, she's even awesome, I dare say. She's been handing the IDF their ***** pretty much since they started showing up and the only time she's ever had much real difficulty is in the SSAs where Soldiers of Rularuu Overseers were showing up spawn after spawn, and always +1 to the mission level. Sentries aren't a problem since those break like bottles with a single stab before they can set down those horrid Quartz Eminators. In fact, Kim is now 50 and has already completed Mender Ramiel's arc. Trapdoor went down like a sissy and the Honoree was a tough but easily manageable fight if I came prepared.
SR might not be the best, but it works. I'm afraid of it just not working all of a sudden when I set foot into DA. I already have the policeman with the arc that sends me there leaving me voice mails, and it has me worried, since I haven't actually made that build in question yet.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Alright. I kind of see where you're coming from, particularly with the powers you seem to be favoring. I personally would have taken drastically different power picks if I'd somehow made a DB/SR stalker, among other things more pool +def and not Elude (I have a thing about crashing clickies), but... yeah, I guess this is an unfortunate edge case.
|
I like god modes in general, and much more so than the "mini-god-modes" of Shield Defence and Willpower. The crash is unfortunate, yes, but the power is undeniable, especially for a Stalker who won't be soft-capped without it. One of my hopes for Dark Astoria is actually Elude itself, since I'm pretty sure it'll be enough to bring me to the Incarnate soft cap easy.And speaking of the Incarnate soft cap, by the way, I wouldn't at all mind a swap from a higher to-hit for critters to accuracy bonuses like what happened in regular gameplay. Not only are accuracy bonuses less punishing to defence in general, but they're also MORE punishing to capped defences since they alter the absolute floor of enemy final to-hit that you can achieve. Even if you bring their to-hit to its own 5% floor with defence, something like 30% accuracy enhancement will still bring that back up to 6.5%, and 30% is just a +1 boss in regular content, if I recall correctly.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by seebs
If you need better performance than you get with SOs or common IOs, but don't want to deal with the madness of fancy I/O builds focused on set bonuses: Frankenslot. Just pick up whatever combos of things give you the bonuses you want. Four acc/dam/end IOs from different sets will give you roughly the equivalent of 2 each acc, dam, and end, for instance. In just four slots.
|
And besides, if we're talking about pure enhancement values, most of the Uncommon sets actually offer pretty dang good return if you use the whole set. Crushing Impact is really lovely about that even aside from its set bonuses. And for most characters, that's exactly what I'll probably do - stick to the Uncommons and just roll with it. Not for Kim and, by extension, not for my other SR characters... And I do have quite a few. Ugh...
---
In other news, Kim has finally reached 50, unlocked her Alpha slot and I'm working on her build as we speak. I decided to drop Shuriken and use the slots elsewhere. I'll probably retain my toggles using four slots and use three Red Fortunes in there plus something else. We'll see. I want more recharge in elude, I want at least one jump enhancement in Combat Jumping and I'll probably rob one out of Hide. We'll see about that. The build isn't ready yet, but I'll present it as soon as I have something workable.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Just for the record, I'm attaching the build I eventually went with. It'll show up below so as not to split my post up. It's more or less what was suggested to me, but I made mine from scratch just so I knew where every slot went.
I did indeed drop one slot from Hide, just 'cuz, and I removed Shuriken entirely. I went with four slots per toggle and went with four Red Fortune slots just because the four-slot bonus was a negligible damage buff. I like that, and it shows up three times.
I also went with more recharge for Elude, and indeed one health slot for Superior Conditioning which, upon reflection, should probably go to Health, instead, since that has a larger buff... Ugh! Anyway, that's the slot which came out of Hide, so it's not that important, I don't think. Not unless anyone wants to suggest it's better for the slot to go back in Hide?
And that's pretty much the extent of it. I moved some slots around here and there, but the numbers are pretty much the same and the build is about the same as it was when suggested. Let me know if I've made some horrible error.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Kim Navar: Level 50 Technology Stalker
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Presence
Ancillary Pool: Weapon Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Power Slice -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(9), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Mako-Dam%(43)
Level 1: Hide -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(37)
Level 2: Ablating Strike -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(3), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 4: Nimble Slash -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Mako-Dam%(46)
Level 6: Assassin's Blades -- StalkersG-Acc/Dmg(A), StalkersG-Dmg/Rchg(7), StalkersG-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), StalkersG-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), StalkersG-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), StalkersG-Rchg/Hide%(40)
Level 8: Focused Fighting -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(15), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(34)
Level 10: Focused Senses -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(15), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(34)
Level 12: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- Jump-I(A), DefBuff-I(50), DefBuff-I(50)
Level 16: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 18: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19), EndRdx-I(42)
Level 20: Placate -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(21)
Level 22: Vengeful Slice -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(23), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(23), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 24: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(39)
Level 26: Sweeping Strike -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(27), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(27), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(29), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 28: Quickness -- Run-I(A)
Level 30: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(39)
Level 32: One Thousand Cuts -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(33), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(33), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(33), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 35: Evasion -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(36)
Level 38: Elude -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 41: Physical Perfection -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(42), Heal-I(50)
Level 44: Web Grenade -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(45), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(45), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(45), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(46), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(46)
Level 47: Targeting Drone -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(48)
Level 49: Challenge -- Acc-I(A)
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(48), EndMod-I(48)
Level 1: Assassination
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Looks good to me. As you noted, Health would give a slightly bigger gain for that Heal slot in PP. But, it's a very minor difference.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And that's pretty much the extent of it. I moved some slots around here and there, but the numbers are pretty much the same and the build is about the same as it was when suggested. Let me know if I've made some horrible error.
|
Since you went with the Stalker ATE set, I feel compelled to warn you about converting them with Enhancement Catalysts. DO NOT CONVERT THEM PIECEMEAL. As you do DA content, if you end up with 6 Catalysts, convert the whole set at once.
Quote:
Sheepishly, I forgot to change it in the build, and consequently went with it in-game. Oops! Thought about respeccing, but figured the difference is so minor I'd rather hold off unless something else big had to be changed.|
Originally Posted by Caulderone
Looks good to me. As you noted, Health would give a slightly bigger gain for that Heal slot in PP. But, it's a very minor difference.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Caulderone
Since you went with the Stalker ATE set, I feel compelled to warn you about converting them with Enhancement Catalysts. DO NOT CONVERT THEM PIECEMEAL. As you do DA content, if you end up with 6 Catalysts, convert the whole set at once.
|
---
As for Dark Astoria itself... Well, so far the difficulty has not been bad at all, but I suspect the Knives of Vengeance are just easy. That, and the Stalker set is just plain cheating, along with my Recharge bonuses. It usually goes like Assassin's Strike -> Auto-Hide -> Sweep -> Placate -> Vengeful Slice and that takes out two or three people with essentially no return fire. Yikes! That, and everything is recharging a LOT faster with this build than it was before, so a lot of the time it's more like Assassin's Strike -> Auto-Hide -> Sweep -> Placate -> Assassin's Strike. Holy hell!
I'm not sure what to make of the defence issue so far. I barely get attacked at all, and they still miss fairly often, but I've been taken down in health a few times by just a few critters. It's not as bad as I feared (though that build has rather a lot more defence than what I had before), but I suspect I'm just being lucky so far.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
The Knives of Vengeance are a weird bag. I honestly believe it's one of the less well considered enemy groups we've gotten in a long time. Overall poor internal synergy, and kind of a weird aesthetic grab-bag. I don't know if they've changed since I was poking at I22 Beta (I haven't played DA on live yet), but they presented LESS of a threat to me than the Knives of Artemis on my blaster, despite all the -def they carry around and the complete lack of def debuff resistance a blaster gets.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
As for Dark Astoria itself... Well, so far the difficulty has not been bad at all, but I suspect the Knives of Vengeance are just easy.
|
Strangely, a friend of mine who plays Energy Aura has a hard time with them. I have no idea why.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
One of the Knives of Vengeance bosses has a nasty little buff called Rallying Cry:
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...S.Rallying_Cry
That looks to be about +20% To-Hit in a 30foot AoE. That can cause some issues on occasion for Defense sets.
It could be worse, it could be the buff the Awakened get (+40% To-Hit) that I talked about here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=278684
I finally got through the six-bosses/two-minutes mission, and I'm glad I made them all lieutenants. It took me a full minute to bring them all down thanks to a horrid streak of misses and Assasin's Strike failing to score criticals on numerous occasions. That, and I wasn't exactly on top of my game.
That intentional difficulty spike aside, though, this hasn't been too bad. That Stalker AT set is practically cheating, and it made my one encounter with the Tsoo almost embarrassingly easy. With this build and that set, it's entirely possible to assassinate-kill one lieutenant, auto-rehide, then use Sweep + a critical Vengeful Slice to kill the next, then use a Focus Assassin's Strike critical to one-shot the minion that's left in a spawn of 2 lieutenants and 1 minion. I actually managed to take out an entire spawn of Knives of Vengeance while receiving a total of three attacks the whole fight, all three of which missed.
I assume the Banished Pantheon will be worse, and I'm told there are a few other wildcard groups that might be bad, but so far I've not fared too badly. I know we scored quite a bit more defence than I had before and that's certainly playing a role, but playing at -1x2 has been pretty much smooth sailings all the way. Hell, the Soldiers of Rularuu gave me thrice as much of a problem.
---
I actually have a bit of a question: Let's suppose my performance is because of my build, which it probably is. How much of it do you think is down to the two Mako's Bite sets in there? I know that a LARGE portion of it is that Stalker set, for which I'm very greatful to the people that gave me the pieces, but how much more dead would I have been had I used Crushing Impacts instead of the Mako's, do you think? Just trying to wrap my head around it for future reference.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Red Fortune's 6 slot bonus is very tempting to those looking to cap ranged defense. Especially if you're using a powerset that usually goes with ranged combat like Force Fields or Cold.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Surprisingly, neither the Mako's stuff nor the Stalker stuff were the most expensive. What set me back something like 50-100 million were those god damn red fortunes. MAN those things are expensive for an Uncommon set!
|
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
Two full Mako's Bite sets gives you 3.75% range def x 2 = 7.5% range def. If you didn't have that, range attacks will be hitting you more often. Mako's has a bigger health bonus than Crushing Impact too, along with damage bonus allowing you to kill stuff faster. Crushing Impact has accuracy and recharge bonuses. Ultimately, it depends on what you want your character to do better at, but Mako is better for survivability.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I actually have a bit of a question: Let's suppose my performance is because of my build, which it probably is. How much of it do you think is down to the two Mako's Bite sets in there? I know that a LARGE portion of it is that Stalker set, for which I'm very greatful to the people that gave me the pieces, but how much more dead would I have been had I used Crushing Impacts instead of the Mako's, do you think? Just trying to wrap my head around it for future reference.
|
Quite a large thread so I haven't read all of it, but while I know you hate getting hero merits, at least consider getting level 30 Numina and level 20 Miracle uniques to put in your favorite characters in health. Or, if you have as much reward merits as you think you have, use them to get those two uniques. It will help their endurance a LOT.
Why level 30 Numina and level 20 Miracle? Because if you wanted level 50/40, you could just get them from the miracle or attempt to convert them using other IOs, and if you ever get level 50/40s of the, you could unslot the lower level ones to pass over to younger alts to use and replace them with the higher level ones (of which there is no difference in performance, just what level you can slot them in, and they will all work right to level 1).
Ideon's Paragonwiki page
Member of Paragon/Rogue Knights
Arc: 60092 - Supa Rumble in the Park
"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller
hey Sam-
haven't read the whole thread, but if you need some inf for a l337 build let me know.
I tossed most of my stockpile on the crazy 88's INFcinerator, but I still have a few billion lying around if you need a bankroll.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I thought I would get back to the "Core" issue here... and answer your questions...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
*edit*
1. What must one do to acquire the resources needed to make Inventions - recipes and salvage? Can this be done by just playing Story Arcs and regular missions like I always have, or do I need to run Architect missions or farm Alignment missions or such? 2. Is it possible to build specifically at level 50, using only level 50 Inventions, or do I have to have a menagerie of different numbers on my Enhancements screen? 3. What defines "cheap" vs. "expensive" sets? Market price? Ticket cost? Merit cost? Is there any way to tell which is which before I commit to it? 4. Does everyone have to build for Defence? Seemingly, whether your sets provide defence or not, and even whether you're melee or not, everyone suggests building for defence. What else should I build for as a general thing? Recharge? Endurance? What? 5. Is it possible to develop a basic template that's at least generally applicable to a whole AT with whatever amount of tweaking, or does every character essentially require starting a build design from scratch? 6. How much work is it to put together a decent, "cheap" build at the level cap as opposed to, say, buying a full set of Common Inventions, assuming I have the build worked out beforehand? |
1. Yes, you can but it is MUCH slower path to completion then using Wentworths to fill in slots as you can. I also tend to hoard everything I find that is of quality, in my base's storage toward future builds for Alts. This saves time and Influence when I am building a later character.
2. It is possible, but not desirable. Some 40 and even 30 level sets have bonuses and proc abilities that you can't get anywhere else. I don't build a character for example without three slotting health and having Regenerative Tissue: 30 Proc, Numina's Proc, and Miracle Proc, that's a 30 a 40 and a 50 in the same power, but the overall result is 25% Health Regeneration, 15% End Recovery, and 20% Health and 10% End Recovery procing every second.
3. Cheap Vs. Expensive builds is the definition of how much this build will cost to fill in from Wentworths.
4. Building for Defense is the best bet for survivability, as it is the harder of the two, Defense and Resistance, to raise. I build scrappers, brutes and Tanks, for Defense, Resistance, and Recharge, in that order.
5. The best thing I can say you must experiment with how each AT works, and how each character works in tandem.
6. Once you have a build worked out, it isn't that much work to gather a build together. It is about 2 days to go from a basic IOs to a full IO Set build assuming your paying for the invention recipes and crafting everything. If you have the cash to straight pay for everything, it can take as little as 4 hours.
Here's how I build:
Tank/Scrapper/Brute: Defense/Resistance/Recharge/Damage
Stalker: Defense/Recharge
Mastermind: Defense/Damage (Pet)
Blaster: Defense/Recharge/Damage
Defender/Corrupter: Defense/Recharge
Controller/Dominator: Defense/Recharge/Damage
Warshade/Peacebringer: NO IDEA... I am lost with these... it depends on the implicit build, triform, dual form, or human form...
VEATs: Again, dependant on the character... Build Widows like Stalkers, build some Spiders like Masterminds and others like Brutes or Blasters...
Perhaps these questions and answers are helpful.
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
Quote:
That's so not why they are expensive. Six slotting defense toggles (or worse, passives) is a terrible opportunity cost for the benefit - very few people do that.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Red Fortune's 6 slot bonus is very tempting to those looking to cap ranged defense. Especially if you're using a powerset that usually goes with ranged combat like Force Fields or Cold.
|
They used to have a decent price just because they were a nice, Uncommon rarity set that was good in defense-centric powersets, but they're much more expensive now, and there's only one reason. You can use Enhancement Converters to turn them into LotGs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Considering the issue of Incarnate to-hit vs. my defence set, "not dying" is really my chief performance goal. To be honest, this build seems to have managed to do that. I'm not exactly sure WHY the build does so well, but I really haven't had much difficulty with anything that doesn't throw a dozen bosses at me or, like on one memorable mission, something like 12 ambushes at me at the same time. It's almost like I'm back in Praetoria.|
Originally Posted by Ideon
Two full Mako's Bite sets gives you 3.75% range def x 2 = 7.5% range def. If you didn't have that, range attacks will be hitting you more often. Mako's has a bigger health bonus than Crushing Impact too, along with damage bonus allowing you to kill stuff faster. Crushing Impact has accuracy and recharge bonuses. Ultimately, it depends on what you want your character to do better at, but Mako is better for survivability.
|
However, that's more a mission design thing than a character performance thing, since you can toss six Zeus Class Titans at my best character and I'd probably struggle. I'm sure the added defence helps, I'm just not sure if I'd have been dead meat without it.
As always, I'm looking less at what I did right this time and more at what I have to do right next time I have to take a SR character through Dark Astoria. The lesson I learned this time is that two Mako's Bite sets, two Multi-Strikes and that one Immobilize set that I can never remember the name of have a fairly decent return. It's easy enough to remember for level 50 sets, and may be easy to repeat.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
hey Sam - haven't read the whole thread, but if you need some inf for a l337 build let me know. I tossed most of my stockpile on the crazy 88's INFcinerator, but I still have a few billion lying around if you need a bankroll.
|
To be honest, if I had any choice in the matter, I wouldn't mess with a new Incarnate any time soon. I have a few I could take down the path, but I just don't want to mess with builds again. It's not fun in the slightest and I have a whole bunch of lowbies I should be playing, including the entirety of my F Squad. I'll do what I can for Kim until I run out of steam, then we'll see.---
Speaking of Kim, she's doing very well, actually. I started Kim on Dark Astoria when I posted the last build that I did, and I'm already looking at a Common Alpha Agility Boost. Yeah, a lot of that is because I got Component rolls on all story arcs, which I won't be able to do after the first run-through of the story, but it's still a nice catch. And the difficulty isn't too bad, as I mentioned. It's tough, but with this build, it doesn't feel like cheating.
And, for the record, I no longer feel like the Stalker AT enhancements are cheating. If the mission designers are going to throw ten ambushes at me at practically the same time, then I feel not a single bit of guilt about remaining hidden after an Assassin's Strike.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Oh, my God, Sam. You know the pain you'd have if you looked at a build and every single power was Frankenslotted with IOs of different levels? That's the same pain I get when I read about you using WWs. :-)|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Too late... I got four pieces from Viking, then another piece was donated to me that was a double of what I already had. I converted this piece "in-set," and had to convert it twice, in fact, but I got the piece I wanted. The last piece I got for 25 million, I think - instant sale. Surprisingly, neither the Mako's stuff nor the Stalker stuff were the most expensive. What set me back something like 50-100 million were those god damn red fortunes. MAN those things are expensive for an Uncommon set!
|
I just checked WW, and the Mako's Bite recipes all sell for a million inf or less. Even with 6 rare salvage pieces, a whole set ought to come in for under the 25 million that one piece cost you. Red Fortunes are all under two million per recipe, and don't have rare salvage in them.
Next time you need IOs, PM me a list.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
Of course, it's always possible I'm wrong or I saw wrong or I interpreted wrong, so feel free to correct me.
You aren't wrong. The Mako's defense bonus is for slot 6.