I give up... What about Inventions?


Arcanaville

 

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Among his other qualities, Sam is also proud. I sent him a set of mako's and touch of death and he sent them back. I think he wants to learn how to do it and how much effort it takes, even though he doesn't like it.

I can appreciate that.


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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Thank you for the offer, Nether To be honest, if I had any choice in the matter, I wouldn't mess with a new Incarnate any time soon. I have a few I could take down the path, but I just don't want to mess with builds again. It's not fun in the slightest and I have a whole bunch of lowbies I should be playing, including the entirety of my F Squad. I'll do what I can for Kim until I run out of steam, then we'll see.
Okies- if you change your mind, lemme know!


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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
Among his other qualities, Sam is also proud. I sent him a set of mako's and touch of death and he sent them back. I think he wants to learn how to do it and how much effort it takes, even though he doesn't like it.
No, that's actually me being stupid. I meant to use those, but the e-mails timed out the day before I hit 50, and I neglected to "refresh" them. I thought they were lost forever and was too ashamed to bring it up. If they bounced back to you and they aren't actually LOST, then I feel better about it.

Yeah, sorry about that. If I could have used those, I would have, but I just took too long to get around it. Accursed e-mail storage limits. Still, thank you for them even though I couldn't use them


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast View Post
I just checked WW, and the Mako's Bite recipes all sell for a million inf or less. Even with 6 rare salvage pieces, a whole set ought to come in for under the 25 million that one piece cost you. Red Fortunes are all under two million per recipe, and don't have rare salvage in them.
I actually had the salvage to make those, just from killing stuff. What stopped me was the recipes SAY they're going for a million or two, but for most there are only a handful listed, say 2 or 3, and you know what that means - those are the ones which are priced so ungodly expensive they aren't selling, which is why they're left behind. I tried bidding up to 8 million for the missing Mako's Bite and it didn't go, so I left a bid of 5 000 000 for around 45 minutes while I messed with the rest of the build and that didn't happen. At that point I pretty much ran out of patience, bid 10 000 000 and got the recipe.

The wrong recipe. Yay. Didn't make that back, lemme' tell ya. I got the correct recipe for around 2 000 000, though.

I pay a lot on the Market because I don't want to wait. Far as I'm concerned, it's worth the cost. It does run me pretty high and ensure I'll never have the truly desirable stuff, but I guess there are ways. Converters and Merits and the like.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Too late... I got four pieces from Viking, then another piece was donated to me that was a double of what I already had. I converted this piece "in-set," and had to convert it twice...
Actually, the guy giving you the warning about not converting them piecemeal was warning you not to CATALYZE them piecemeal. Catalysts are what turn ATOs into Superior ATOs, but doing so to one or two pieces in a set will lose you some set bonuses, since the ATO set and SATO set are two separate sets. That said, keep running DA, and the catalysts will drop. Once you get six, catalyze the whole ATO set. All the enhancement values of the pieces jump up to purples' scale, and so do the bonuses.


 

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Originally Posted by Billy Mailman View Post
Actually, the guy giving you the warning about not converting them piecemeal was warning you not to CATALYZE them piecemeal. Catalysts are what turn ATOs into Superior ATOs, but doing so to one or two pieces in a set will lose you some set bonuses, since the ATO set and SATO set are two separate sets. That said, keep running DA, and the catalysts will drop. Once you get six, catalyze the whole ATO set. All the enhancement values of the pieces jump up to purples' scale, and so do the bonuses.
Ah, I see. What are those catalysts? Salvage like the Converters, or? And where can I get them from? Are they just drops?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Ah, I see. What are those catalysts? Salvage like the Converters, or? And where can I get them from? Are they just drops?
They appear only as drops, and only from Incarnate content (currently iTrials and anything in DA, including street mobs). At present they are character bound, though the devs have acknowledge that this is sucky and plan to do something with it, but we don't yet know what.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Defence-based sets are really the only place where I'm worried, to be honest, and Dark Astoria is the only reason I'm worried to begin with. Under normal circumstances, 30-35% defence is perfectly OK. It's not great, but it's enough to make me feel confident. Trouble is, Dark Astoria enemies have a higher base to-hit, and not just by a little. That, to me, is a disproportionate problem for defence-based sets since I've fought the Knives of Vengeance and the Banished Pantheon, and the DA Tsoo, and they don't ignore parts of my resistance or health or regeneration as far as I can tell. That's why I feel Crash - my SS/Inv Brute - didn't need much help while I feel Kim does.

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. It just seems to me like Dark Astoria expects me to be packing defence-granting Inventions sets and so sets the accuracy of its critters accordingly. That's why I feel SR needs help. I'd be glad to be wrong, of course.
The devs are in fact thinking that in the end game specifically, defense has an edge because its so easy to build for high defense and the level of debuffing is higher - an area defense intrinsically has an edge over other damage mitigation.

I "fixed" my SR by giving her a nose-bleed expensive build (which ironically would be cheaper today due to the effects of converters).

I should also point out that level shifts grant tohit leverage. Although post-I7 higher level critters gain accuracy bonuses from even to +5, the devs never altered the scaling behavior of critters *lower* than you are. If you are +1 to the critters, they have -5% base tohit on you. So every little bit helps there.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The devs are in fact thinking that in the end game specifically, defense has an edge because its so easy to build for high defense and the level of debuffing is higher - an area defense intrinsically has an edge over other damage mitigation.
I can see the former, but they seem fond of undercutting the latter by giving out auto-hit defense debuffs and +toHit on mobs. Probably the most extreme example of auto-hit debuff is that put out by Tarantula Mistresses, but of course that's been around for a while and may not have been the brainchild of any current devs. However, the Scryer version of Seers has a very similar power that is also auto-hit.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I can see the former, but they seem fond of undercutting the latter by giving out auto-hit defense debuffs and +toHit on mobs. Probably the most extreme example of auto-hit debuff is that put out by Tarantula Mistresses, but of course that's been around for a while and may not have been the brainchild of any current devs. However, the Scryer version of Seers has a very similar power that is also auto-hit.
The thing is that those effects probably do just about the right thing to non-defensive characters that have build up high defenses outside their primaries and secondaries. Its the things that primarily have high defense intrinsically that get the short end of that stick, but the devs do not appear to believe that is a serious enough problem to expend special effort to avoid.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The devs are in fact thinking that in the end game specifically, defense has an edge because its so easy to build for high defense and the level of debuffing is higher - an area defense intrinsically has an edge over other damage mitigation.
But that's just my problem with it - the content EXPECTS me to have these high defences via Set bonuses and is designed to counter-act them. If I go there without them, my natural powerset defences get crushed, so I either HAVE to get those extra defences, or I need not apply. This is turning Set Inventions - and very specific Sets, as well - into essentially a gate, which in turn gets dangerously close to a specific gear rating. I need to have this much extra stats from my gear, and if I don't, I should go back to previous content and get that gear before I can run the content.

I was lucky enough that people just out-and-out gave me stuff and made a build for me, no less, but it's the very concept of it I disagree with. Yes, I can agree that the rampant capped defences for characters that have no business having defences in the first place should probably be addressed. I don't think it should ever have been allowed, but we've made our bed and we need to lie in it. But I'd honestly prefer it if people with many defence bonuses were addressed in a such a way as to NOT hurt those of us who don't have them. Because other people use many sets, all of a sudden my defences aren't worth as much even though I never did that. And I don't like it.

I'm really not sure how that might work, but to be honest... I worry about my SR, Ninjutsu and Energy Aura characters, because I have quite a few of those. Worse still, I have a DB/SR Brute (a lot like Kim) who has neither Combat Jumping nor Hide because she's a flier and a Brute.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
But that's just my problem with it - the content EXPECTS me to have these high defences via Set bonuses and is designed to counter-act them. If I go there without them, my natural powerset defences get crushed, so I either HAVE to get those extra defences, or I need not apply.
Not precisely. If you're using a character without any kind of direct mitigation (defense or resistance), then the damage you take goes from 50% to 64% of total damage thrown at you. That's a 28% increase in damage taken, which is indeed painful. However, if you're using a defense set or set IOs and you're sitting at 45% defense, you go from 5% of total damage thrown at you to 19%. That's a 280% increase in damage taken.

In other words, players who find the sweet spot of how many enemies they can fight with a 45% defense (like being able to fight at 2x8 or something) suddenly get mauled to death because they're taking vast amounts of damage. That sweet spot is where their mitigation is just barely able to keep them alive under the amount of damage being thrown at them, and suddenly getting almost four times that damage pushes them over the edge easily.

However, the players who find the sweet spot with 0% direct mitigation (probably something like 0x4) might have to tone it back to 0x3 or something, maybe. It's not that big a deal.

And even then, those characters with indirect mitigation (everyone else except Blasters) most likely aren't going to notice the to-hit increase very much, if at all. A spawn is locked down/debuffed either way.

It is true that the defense-based melee characters who merely perform well in regular content and aren't tricked out to the ears get shafted in Incarnate content. You are right there, that for that specific subset of powersets, you kind of have to push the envelope in build design.

...Well, either that or just load up on purples, which is ridiculously easy these days. One small purple is 12.5%, which covers most of the distance from 45% to 59% defense, and these days I find myself using as many mediums as smalls. My Energy Aura character is running with about 49-52% defense pre-Barrier, and a single purple per spawn is quite sufficient, usually netting me a return of 1-2 purples per spawn provided I regularly combine and otherwise keep my insp tray open.


De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

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I hate doubleposting, but I think I edited that first one a little too much.

It's also worth noting that that primarily applies to players who are dancing at the limits of their mitigation. If your mitigation is capable of handling 2x8 content, but you're only running at, say, 0x6, that's a gigantic margin of safety, and even the extra to-hit from Incarnate enemies won't overcome it. You'll find yourself taking more damage, sure, but you'll still be very safe.


De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
But that's just my problem with it - the content EXPECTS me to have these high defences via Set bonuses and is designed to counter-act them. If I go there without them, my natural powerset defences get crushed, so I either HAVE to get those extra defences, or I need not apply. This is turning Set Inventions - and very specific Sets, as well - into essentially a gate, which in turn gets dangerously close to a specific gear rating. I need to have this much extra stats from my gear, and if I don't, I should go back to previous content and get that gear before I can run the content.
Here's what I do when slotting.

At level 47, I slot level 50 sets.

Along the way, when I can, I use Hero Merits and Reward Merits to buy Luck of the Gambler Global recharges and slot them where I can. If you're a flyer, you can take Hover and Afterburner and put LotGs in those powers, for example. (And with Fitness becoming inherent, it's easier to take more peripheral powers.)

I don't "aim" to build to have the biggest overall defense to be untouchable. If I can gain defense, great, but it's not my biggest concern.

My favorite way of dealing with attack powers:

Ranged attacks get Thunderstrike. It's a good, inexpensive set that will give you decent Ranged Defense bonuses.

Defensive powers (like with your Reflexes powers) I try to slot with Red Fortune since that gives damage and recharge bonuses.

Melee attacks get Crushing Impact. Recharge and other assorted bonuses are pretty good. Mako's Bite is certainly a decent set, too and (if I remember correctly) can give you a damage bonus and (I think) a melee defense bonus.

Targeted AOE -- Positron's Blast. This isn't the greatest set except for the nice recharge bonus, so I've either been replacing this with Ragnarok (which will run you between 1.5 and 1.8 billion to buy) or the new ATO set as appropriate.

PB AOE -- Scirocco's Dervish is good. Obliteration is better but far more expensive. Also a good candidate to replace with Armageddon if affordable. (Save your pennies!)

The way I look at it is my characters are all capable of functioning within the confines of the game either solo and on teams. I am not building to pull off incredible feats of might (like soloing Giant Monsters) and that's not my playstyle. ANY SET BONUSES I GET ARE GRAVY and nothing more.

As far as the Devs metagaming us against the high defense builds, welcome to the newer content. The Dark Astoria mobs tend to have a number of Defense Debuffs that can shred a defensive build. If you have no defense to begin with and know how to play accordingly, they're not going to be all that bad, but players are going to have to start thinking again instead of just blindly wading through stuff.


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Posted

See, the thing is, I don't really have a problem on most of my characters. I get that having enemy to-hit jump is a pain for everybody, but my other characters at least have something else to fall back on - heals, debuffs, resistance and so forth. SR has quite literally nothing BUT defence. Yeah, there are quite a few nice debuff resists in there - run speed and recharge speed that I can think of - but strip my Scrapper of his defences and he has nothing to fall back on. The scaling resistance of the passives? Those don't really do much.

I guess - as usual - that's mostly a problem for SR, since both Ninjutsu and Energy Aura have other mitigation tools, but even so, it just strikes me as unfair. I can't really imagine what my Bots/FF Mastermind would go through, but at the same time... He's a Mastermind. Half the time he can forget he even HAS a secondary and do just fine. I'm sure he has enough spare performance to absorb the to-hit difference.

I guess the problem is I don't build to fight at +4x8. I build to fight at +0x2 with some degree of comfort. Granted, most of my characters can handle, say, +0x3, but it's no longer comfortable at all and it gets both a lot slower and a lot more dangerous. When you play at +0x2, there isn't much left to drop TO. I can go -1, but that won't make Dark Astoria enemies any lower in level. If anything, it'll make my companions level 49, making things even tougher. I know, because I did. Going down from x2 to x1 is also an option but again - the difference isn't that great, and I still get massive spawns tossed at me because that's just how those missions are designed.

It doesn't feel fair against SR, is what I'm saying, and I have a LOT of SR characters.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I get that having enemy to-hit jump is a pain for everybody, but my other characters at least have something else to fall back on - heals, debuffs, resistance and so forth. SR has quite literally nothing BUT defence.

It doesn't feel fair against SR, is what I'm saying, and I have a LOT of SR characters.
If you have a lot of SR characters and realize that SR has limited passive mitigation options, why do you not build with that in mind?

To be frank, different sets are different. I don't expect them all to 'just work'...not in every scenario. Similarly (but perhaps a bad example) is Willpower. It's a set-and-forget set that will just work...but if faced with incoming damage its tools cannot overcome, expect to be very dead.

There are powers you can capitalize on that will ease set weaknesses and some that don't. You're Dual Blades, start abusing that knockdown. Didn't your character ever imagine being faced with foes that will 'just hit' her? She had to have planned for that. Inspirations, controlling techniques, ranged techniques, healing tools, enfeebling abilities, power boosts...something.


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
There are powers you can capitalize on that will ease set weaknesses and some that don't. You're Dual Blades, start abusing that knockdown. Didn't your character ever imagine being faced with foes that will 'just hit' her? She had to have planned for that. Inspirations, controlling techniques, ranged techniques, healing tools, enfeebling abilities, power boosts...something.
I am abusing the knockdowns, but there just aren't that many of them. To the best of my knowledge, there's one in the Sweep combo and one in One Thousand Cuts.

And I wouldn't bring concept into this, because it's concept specifically that's had me select Web Grenade and Targeting Drone over the Fighting pool. That's what made sense of Kim. Hell, I'd have taken Shuriken if I could, but I just didn't think I can manage it.

Still, I'm open to suggestions. Aside from powerset powers, what else could I use to mitigate that kind of to-hit increase? I looked through all the Pool powers, and aside from a few stat boosts, there really wasn't all that much which seemed like it'd help. I guess Air Superiority counts, but that really doesn't make sense for Kim from a concept standpoint and... What else? Heal Self? Even with the Inventions build, I still get hit too much to use it in combat.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Well there's Vengeful Strike, which is 100% knockdown.

Yes, there's Air Superiority if you'd favor. There's also Spring attack for area KD. There's tough and weave. Aid self may not be usable in combat, but you can forego more of your green inspirations for more +def, +res and +dmg inspirations instead. Remember, inspirations are there to be used and since you're melee, you don't need breakfrees, you don't need to bother with awakes, you're not fighting foes higher level than you so you don't need insight, so that just leaves blue, green, orange, purple and red. Find a way to eliminate another (hows your endurance? fix it and you don't need blue...take aid-self and you don't need to rely on green, cap defense and you don't need many purples...)

If you've got enough attacks, you can eliminate one for better utility or trade one for a different flavor attack. You don't seem to be getting all that much from Weapon Mastery (IMO) except web grenade. Mace Mastery has a similar power but with a hold instead of an immobilize.

Then there's incarnate powers. Interface has some nifty debuffs that may increase your survival a good deal (especially since +0 and +1 foes won't resist your debuffs much).

But this is just speaking in generalizations, not on your character specifically. The way I see it, practically any concept is workable and can be good thanks to IOs. Even your character can be made really good with what limited tools it has thanks to IOs. If you're unhappy that your concept isn't just well out of the box, that's what IOs are for. That you don't want to use IOs to fulfill the concept better is the problem.

Yeah, I guess you can boil down the argument of 'why can't my character concept just kick butt with her limited tools and without needing to fiddle with IOs' but that's a hugely deeper issue. There's a reason we can't just make any combo of powers too...


 

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PS: Not talking down on your character. I'm just not in agreement that the end-game is always going to favor IO builds. Really, it's all do-able with just insight (err...forethought). Having a character with a multitude of tools/is a generalist gives you options and after that, inspirations.

You just have to look at your build and notice: What can it do? Then think What should it be capable of? That doesn't always line up with how the game interprets balance so sometimes you need to cheat...enter IOs.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
But that's just my problem with it
Well, its sort of my problem with it also: I was just pointing out the facts there.


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I'm really not sure how that might work, but to be honest... I worry about my SR, Ninjutsu and Energy Aura characters, because I have quite a few of those. Worse still, I have a DB/SR Brute (a lot like Kim) who has neither Combat Jumping nor Hide because she's a flier and a Brute.
Well, there's unfair and then there's poor. I don't think its fair. But I don't think its harsh enough to turn any scrapper or brute into a poor performer. They may fall behind their peers, but without inventions and incarnate powers they were going to fall behind their peers in Dark Astoria and other incarnate content either way.

It basically means just don't go crazy on taking on too much, because you just lost half your defense. But the archetypes that lack mez protection are also struggling to recapture the high ground in Dark Astoria also, because DA critters also seem to have thrown away the book on mez moderation.

Also, lucks are your friend, and you don't need many to stack enough defense to regain high defensive leverage. Unfair or not, its a reasonable and reasonably easy to execute tactic to use to keep them around and keep your net defense high.


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Sidestepping yet another "you refuse to min/max" argument, I remember something that pissed me off so much more than the basic to-hit - half the Talons of Vengeance seem to have essentially auto-hit patches like they're raid bosses. And that's not just the occasional elite boss like a Keres, oh, no. Every frikkin' "Prophetess" lieutenant has them, either in the "rocks explode out of the ground" or the "lightning field" or the "burning ground" variety. I know they're not auto-hit, but I ran build you gave me, with Elude and with two medium purples all at the same time and those patches were still hitting me with 85% probability.

Yeah, I get that I need to avoid them. Eventually, I learned to take out as many Prophetess Talons as I could, then run in circles until all the patches were expended, then keep on targeting Prophetess enemies. I know, I know, they're avoidable. But it's just Watchers and Quartz all over again.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Sidestepping yet another "you refuse to min/max" argument,
In my defense, I'm not suggesting you min/max. If I were telling you that, I'd have suggested you pick Ice Armor, perhaps Electric Armor + IO defense bonuses, then build for perma-hasten, etc.

Nah, what I'm suggesting is to know your build limitations and plan around them.

That said, I've been noticing a particular lack of quartz crystals. The guardians seem to be broken and don't bother summoning it...or maybe it's just in Vernon von Grun's arc, but lvling my Claws/EA to 50 on that arc and I don't believe he saw even one quartz...and I kept a mess of orange inspirations just in case.


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
In my defense, I'm not suggesting you min/max. If I were telling you that, I'd have suggested you pick Ice Armor, perhaps Electric Armor + IO defense bonuses, then build for perma-hasten, etc.
I know, Leo, and I'm not accusing you. I just know where this line of conversation goes. I danced this dance with Stamina, I did it with Inventions and I'll probably keep doing it till the cows come home. There's just nothing to be gained, trust me.

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
That said, I've been noticing a particular lack of quartz crystals. The guardians seem to be broken and don't bother summoning it...or maybe it's just in Vernon von Grun's arc, but lvling my Claws/EA to 50 on that arc and I don't believe he saw even one quartz...and I kept a mess of orange inspirations just in case.
I can't say for sure. I know what Quartz do, so I never really gave a Sentry the chance to set one down. Kim can one-shot those guys at the start of every fight, and that's what I opted for. I may or may not have seen a quartz once, in Eden for a hunt, but I can't remember. It is possible, however, that they aren't setting them down. As I said, I haven't seen any since I22.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
But that's just my problem with it - the content EXPECTS me to have these high defences via Set bonuses and is designed to counter-act them. If I go there without them, my natural powerset defences get crushed, so I either HAVE to get those extra defences, or I need not apply. This is turning Set Inventions - and very specific Sets, as well - into essentially a gate, which in turn gets dangerously close to a specific gear rating. I need to have this much extra stats from my gear, and if I don't, I should go back to previous content and get that gear before I can run the content.
I get why Sam says "the game is leaving me behind," because I feel the same way. The end game is just too much work (for me), and probably explains why I haven't played much lately, and why this thread discourages me from doing so even more.

--NT


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My /SR scrapper is moving through Dark Astoria pretty well, and he's not tricked out or anything. It starts with setting the difficulty slider appropriately.


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