I give up... What about Inventions?

*edit*
Yes, I'm resurrecting this thread because I have just a few more questions to ask. You may want to skip to the end.

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I know I've made these threads occasionally and never followed up on them, but it's starting to become very, very clear that I may simply no longer have a choice in the matter if I intend to play any part of the game newer than 2009 or so. So, because people seem to love accusing me of not listening, this is me throwing in the towel and asking to listen.

I actually do have a few specific questions in mind, and none of them are character- or AT-specific. Just general ones.

1. What must one do to acquire the resources needed to make Inventions - recipes and salvage? Can this be done by just playing Story Arcs and regular missions like I always have, or do I need to run Architect missions or farm Alignment missions or such?

2. Is it possible to build specifically at level 50, using only level 50 Inventions, or do I have to have a menagerie of different numbers on my Enhancements screen?

3. What defines "cheap" vs. "expensive" sets? Market price? Ticket cost? Merit cost? Is there any way to tell which is which before I commit to it?

4. Does everyone have to build for Defence? Seemingly, whether your sets provide defence or not, and even whether you're melee or not, everyone suggests building for defence. What else should I build for as a general thing? Recharge? Endurance? What?

5. Is it possible to develop a basic template that's at least generally applicable to a whole AT with whatever amount of tweaking, or does every character essentially require starting a build design from scratch?

6. How much work is it to put together a decent, "cheap" build at the level cap as opposed to, say, buying a full set of Common Inventions, assuming I have the build worked out beforehand?

I'm not trolling, I'm not joking, I'm not even just talking empty. I simply don't have the strength to fight people tooth and nail about not using Inventions any more when newer content clearly assumes I am. I'm starting to feel like I have to either "get with the programme" or quit the game entirely. And I don't want to quit the game quite yet, if at all possible. So this is me giving up and just trying to wrap my head around the thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

with my limited knowledge

1. What must one do to acquire the resources needed to make Inventions - recipes and salvage? Can this be done by just playing Story Arcs and regular missions like I always have, or do I need to run Architect missions or farm Alignment missions or such?

you can find recipes and salvage but most likely you will have to buy stuff at WW to get exactly what you need.

2. Is it possible to build specifically at level 50, using only level 50 Inventions, or do I have to have a menagerie of different numbers on my Enhancements screen?

You can build just with lvl 50 enhancements. They will still work if you exemplar down, but the set bonuses will not. So if you do not care about set bonuses you are fine.

3. What defines "cheap" vs. "expensive" sets? Market price? Ticket cost? Merit cost? Is there any way to tell which is which before I commit to it?

Cost in WW. The cost is the recipe + salvage. Salvage usually is not the expensive part. Salvage ranges from 100 to 2 million influence (there may be some exceptional salvage). But recipes range from 100 to 1 billion influence and possibly more.

4. Does everyone have to build for Defence? Seemingly, whether your sets provide defence or not, and even whether you're melee or not, everyone suggests building for defence. What else should I build for as a general thing? Recharge? Endurance? What?

Depends on your character. Defense is useful to everyone so it is the most recommended. Recharge is usually the other thing built for. It is rare that you need to build for endurance since most sets will have END reduction in them already.

5. Is it possible to develop a basic template that's at least generally applicable to a whole AT with whatever amount of tweaking, or does every character essentially require starting a build design from scratch?

The sets are semi generic - range damage, melee damage, etc. In that sense you can assemble a character out of those. Plus there are some unique IO's that probably every build wants if you can afford them.

6. How much work is it to put together a decent, "cheap" build at the level cap as opposed to, say, buying a full set of Common Inventions, assuming I have the build worked out beforehand?

it is a sliding scale. Buying and making a cheap set for an attack is no harder than regular IO's. It is squeezing the last bit out of a build that takes the time.

1. What must one do to acquire the resources needed to make Inventions - recipes and salvage? Can this be done by just playing Story Arcs and regular missions like I always have, or do I need to run Architect missions or farm Alignment missions or such?

The best way is NOT to try to get the recipes you need as lucky drops. That would never happen, ever. You need to buy what you need from the Wentworths or Black Market.

You can come up with cash for this in various ways. It is relatively easy to generate 2 billion every 6-7 weeks on one character doing the alignment missions, gathering 35 A-Merits, getting the Glad +3% global I/o recipe, selling it. Some people think this is a horrid slow way to make cash in game.

2. Is it possible to build specifically at level 50, using only level 50 Inventions, or do I have to have a menagerie of different numbers on my Enhancements screen?

You can build at 50, but some really good I/Os top out below that. I have a very expensive build on my main with a lot of I/Os that top out at 35 and 40. highest number does not equal best enhancer for a particular build.

3. What defines "cheap" vs. "expensive" sets? Market price? Ticket cost? Merit cost? Is there any way to tell which is which before I commit to it?

Driven by Market Forces. Perception/desire/availability/and the ever popular market manipulators (some of those folks who might dis my above method for cash generation as clunky/slow)

4. Does everyone have to build for Defence? Seemingly, whether your sets provide defence or not, and even whether you're melee or not, everyone suggests building for defence. What else should I build for as a general thing? Recharge? Endurance? What?

No, although most people that do not buiold some defense in do it for a VERY specific reason. A good builder does not always build for defense, but when they do not it is a very conscious decision. Defense is that important.

5. Is it possible to develop a basic template that's at least generally applicable to a whole AT with whatever amount of tweaking, or does every character essentially require starting a build design from scratch?

Most of my high end Brutes and Scrappers use a very similar mix of Kinetic Combats, Reactive Armors, and Purple sets. However, not every power set takes every enhancer, and there is a lot of work getting even a build that is 90% similar slapped from one place to another. At least for me, but maybe I just aint that good.

6. How much work is it to put together a decent, "cheap" build at the level cap as opposed to, say, buying a full set of Common Inventions, assuming I have the build worked out beforehand?

A decent cheap build should run a few hundred million. It won't be an abusive, sick, gets away with murder design. But it will have many benefits that a straight up SO build can never have.

And to match your closing statement. I ran this game for over a year using just Single Origin Enhancers. I cringe when I look back at the stuff I threw on when I started using I/Os. THen I started buying nothing but Purple Sets, thinking price drove quality. (They aint bad, but really the cherry on a build, cannot use them to drive a build)

The best thing to do is go to the build workshop or your archtype area. Ask for help. I am not a great builder, and a worse marketeer. But there are folks out there who can take a "I need a cheap StJ/WP build that performs okay" statement and within a few hours you get a reply "Paste this in mids, the build should cost 375mil if you spend careful, and it has good def, resists, and +X global rech" Trying to tackle MIDs, the Market, and a plan for earning all at once may seem overwhelming. My advice is to find a plan to get the cash. A-Merits, marketing, or Farming. Then while you are earning start posting asking for help on a build. While you are getting your build worked out you can be earning for it in game. Good Luck!

Start simple- work on slotting a power with a basic set like Crushing Impact (for melee attacks) or Thunderstrike (for ranged). That will get you used to collecting recipes and salvage, and looking at set bonuses and what they do.

You're probably getting ahead of yourself. Your first task for making an IO build is to actually make an IO build. Go to mids, make something you think looks decent, and then bring it here so we can tell you that you're wrong and help you along to something that will smite the faces of thine enemies.

Anyway,

1: Salvage and Recipes can be found normally while playing the game, although they have different tiers of rarity. A lot of the time, for anything specific, you are going to be using Wentworth's. If something is too expensive you might be better off doing hero alignment missions, using merit points, or farming AE. You'll want to be doing SOMETHING to get random salvage and recipe drops anyway, so any one of those is a good place to spend your efforts.

Exactly how much time and effort you want to place into making the 'perfect' build is up to you. You can grind for hours or just play normally, entirely depends on how fast you want it done.


2: You can build at level 50, and in fact most enhancements are at their best value at their max level, so it's not even a terrible idea to do so. You need to be aware, however, that set bonuses won't apply if you exemplar down past the level range of the IO. How much of a problem this is for you depends on you. My *personal* philosophy is that I didn't need set bonuses leveling up, I shouldn't need them exemplaring down. You might think differently.

The *enhancement* values will still work like any other normal SO when you exemplar down, so you needn't worry about that. Also "procs", IO's which have a chance of doing something every time the power they're slotted in gets used, will work at any level as well because they are considered an enhancement.

It is also important to note that not all the best enhancements will be capped at level 50. The Kinetic Combat set, which offers high amounts of S/L defense and is the cornerstone for many such defense based builds, caps at level 35. Achilles' Heel: Chance for Resistance Debuff maxes out at level 20. Miracle: +Recovery caps at level 40. Point is that you really want to become more familiar with a wide level range of IO's if your serious about making an IO character. Again, it can seem overwhelming, but you got this entire forum here that likes to help with stuff like this.


3: Yes. What is expensive and what is cheap depends a lot on the rarity of the item, and how the market dictates its' price. Like any shrewd business man, you should aim to sell high and buy cheap. Failing that, there is always alignment/merits/ae if you aren't willing to spend 300 billion influence on something you could more capably get utilizing some other method.


4: You don't *have* to build for defense, but it is currently one of the most powerful mitigating methods available too you. To get an idea of just how powerful it can be, go find an arch-villain, pop three purples, and watch as you don't die. Now imagine doing that, but all the time.

The problem with building defense is that you must make very specialized builds for it, often taking many defense oriented toggles and powers you normally wouldn't use, and whose use won't be appreciated until your build starts to come together. Because of this you'll also need to consider the extra amount of endurance you use, and build for that as well. The OTHER problem with defense is that the developers totally know we build for it, and meta-game more recent challenges to make it less useful. It's also probably one of the most attractive things to the nerf-hammer right now, so just keep that in mind.

How important defense is and the amount of difference it will make depends on what AT you're playing. Scrappers/brutes/tankers/stalkers, who are almost always getting hit will find defense extremely useful. Controllers or Dominators, who usually have all the enemies locked down from the word "go" might not be so enthusiastic about it.

All that said, don't worry too much about getting to the magical 45%. While it does make a big difference, a good defense is probably around 25-30%, which is generally adequate to handle the "normal" encounters in the game provided you aren't entirely relying upon it. You don't really *need* 45% defense unless you're doing something more crazy, like soloing on the highest difficulty settings or trying to take down an arch-villain by yourself. Or both. For the "normal" game you can get away with smaller defense numbers and just pop a purple of things get hairy.

I should also mention, briefly, that aside from defense the *other* major thing you can do for your build is to greatly increase its' global recharge. In fact, I might venture to say that global recharge will make a bigger impact on your builds than building for defense. As a Scrapper your attacks will come back quicker and you'll be capable of performing some of the top end DPS chains. As a Controller your long cooldown control effects are suddenly back in, say, 30 seconds, rather than two minutes. The amount of difference it can make is staggering.


5: Kind of, but it won't happen for you right away. As you create a lot of IO builds, you'll get used to what tools can make what happen. For example, Weave, Maneuvers, Tactics, Combat Jumping, and Kinetic Combat are usually go-to aspects in my builds when trying to get high Smashing/Lethal defense regardless of AT. I know Certain pool powers are good for certain things. It's just a matter of becoming educated with what's available to you.


6: Depends on what you consider a 'cheap' build. If you're just looking to round out your powers with better enhancement options with no regards to set bonuses it can be super easey. If you're looking to make something with set bonuses that's got fairly good recharge and defense, it's going to get a little more expensive. If you're absolutely sweating every single decimal point of improvement and buying expensive PVP IO's in order to get every ounce of strength so you can run around as the most ultimate being in creation (until someone pops an inspiration and easily matches you) it's going to be crazy expensive.

It's going to take awhile the first time you make an IO character anyway just because there's a high amount of STUFF you need to be educated about first. Once you get into the swing of it, and once you know how to effectively make influence, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to decently outfit your characters in a way that is meaningful to their survival.


I hope that was long enough for you :P

A couple of recommendations:

If you don't already have a copy, I would recommend getting Mids Hero Builder.

You can plan out your builds, view all the different IOs in game and even factor in Incarnate powers.

The main thing with inventions, in my opinion, is first figuring out what you specifically want to do with your build.

The two reasons people using sets are A) They give overall better bonuses than SOs/Common IOs and B) Set Bonuses that act as global buffs.

So let's say you have your character built with SOs. I'll use a Earth/Emp controller as an example.

He does pretty well for you. But sometimes you find yourself wondering - how can I get Fortitude to recharge faster? How can I make my heals more powerful? How can I die less? Maybe your Fortitude recharges fine, but you want to squeeze out more green numbers. These are things you need to consider.

Once you know what you want to improve on, it's easier to start building with Invention sets.

Now, I'm assuming you're not familiar with what sets offer what bonuses so you will have to do a little homework. And this can even be done through regular play. You get recipe drops all the time. All you have to do is like at 1 piece from a recipe set and it will tell you what "type" of set it is - like Targeted AOE, Healing, Ranged Damage, Melee Damage, etc and it will also tell you what set bonuses it gives for how many pieces of that set you slot into a power.

Also, it doesn't matter which pieces you slot to get the global set bonuses, just the amount of pieces slotted.

As far as expensive/cheap goes, I still consider anything over 50m per piece expensive. But that's me. Some folks don't.

Anything in the 500k to 10m range I consider cheap. Anything 10m - 50m I consider moderate. 50m+ expensive. A lot of stuff you can get during normal play. Recipes do drop often. And the salvage drops a plenty too.

In regard to the "numbers" on the enhancements, yes it is possible to slot only level 50 IOs. You don't have to use any of the lower sets if you choose not to. Some of them do offer better bonuses than their level counterparts. But if it's aesthetics you're looking at, you shouldn't have a problem.

And remember, there are many sources of recipes and crafted IOs. Reward Merits, A-Merits, Auction House, Tickets, Random Drops, Mission Completes, etc.

Anywho, I hope this info helped, even if just a little bit. The invention system can be overwhelming at first but once you get a general hand on it, it becomes second nature.

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A couple more things:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolarSentai The main thing with inventions, in my opinion, is first figuring out what you specifically want to do with your build.

That's right on the money. I don't know what I want to build for. I don't know what I CAN build for, let alone what I should, never you mind what I actually want to get out of the whole thing. I guess, if we boil it down to its barest essentials, what I want is to die less and kill more, but that's really not saying much.

Let's use my above build as sort of an example - I don't want to restrict the discussion to just one build, but it might help. What would a SJ/SR/Body Scrapper want out of Inventions? How much of that can be achieved using only level 50 Inventions? How much of that would involve "expensive" inventions? How much am I shooting myself in the foot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mazey Sounds like you should have taken a pure mathematics degree instead. In mine, at least, you essentually weren't allowed to use a theorem unless you understood why it worked.

I was a lot younger at the time, as well. I started university probably 10 years ago now, and I treated it a lot like school, lacking the real understanding of what I'd need to know when I actually had to use that stuff professionally. But, yeah, a lot of the time even when theorems were proven, they relied on believing other theorems which were never even addressed. Maybe Mathematics really is just like that, but I like to think we can get down to the individual axioms before we start taking things for granted. I like to have a grasp on my chosen field, as it were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolarSentai Anything in the 500k to 10m range I consider cheap. Anything 10m - 50m I consider moderate. 50m+ expensive. A lot of stuff you can get during normal play. Recipes do drop often. And the salvage drops a plenty too.

I should note that I have only a single character who has a billion Inf, which she made off three Purple recipes that dropped on her over the span of two days. Aside from her, most of my characters have never seen 100 million INF in their pockets all at once. Just for the sake of basic reference of the means I'm working with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Well, let's do an exercise, Sam. What's your main? We won't use Mids or anything, and we will keep it exceedingly simple and cheap as possible.

Well, /I/ will keep it simple.


Edit: I will NOT tell you what sets to buy per say, but just general tips on a specific character. Every toon has its quirks.

Sam,

I love super reflexes builds. Also, super reflexes builds are one of the easier sets to IO out, and it is pretty easy to explain why everything is done. The only possible trick may be in getting your build soft-capped at the level you are at currently.

What level are you now, and what powers do you intend to pick from the primary and secondary? What pool and travel powers do you like, and which do you always hate? Are you open to the Fighting pool, and to Combat Jumping? Super Speed? Or what?

It wouldnt be too tricky to put together (for *me* to put together) a relatively cheap build that is easy to explain and craft, if you can tell me a few of these details about your character.

Lewis

Sam I got to thank you for making this thread. I am in the same boat. In fact I just wrote an email to a good friend in order to get them to try to help me with a build for my main. I have a full on HO build for him that I just cannot bring myself to delete so I started a second build to work on IO's.

The numbers just get meshed together for me and I just couldn't get my head around it whatsoever. I have 2 billion influence, a ton of rares saved up, about 17 purples waiting, 1500 reward merits and have no clue what to do.

So thanks to everyone posting in this thread and to Sam for making it. It helps to read the answers to the questions. My thing was that I just didn't want to go through and make a build and end up 'gimping' the build meaning I now have less damage, less recharge, less end reduction then I did before.

Basically I don't understand it so I never touch it, I just use the crafted enhancements that end up being better than lvl 53 SO's and up until now have left the IO sets alone. It has always bugged the **** out of me though...

Haven't read everything, but a few notes:

1) It's typically very easy to acquire the recipes or IOs that you want for your build, depending upon their rarity. There are many ways to get the specific recipes: Reward Merits, Astral Merits, Alignment Merits, and of course regular drops from missions. Some do not drop from defeated foes, however. You can also "roll" with AE tickets, Reward Merits, and Alignment Merits.

2) Using Alignment Merits & the player Market you can make more money to get more 'cheap' recipes. For example, recently a level 30 Luck of the Gambler 7.5% Increased Recharge Speed recipe was going for 150 million influence. If you were to use 2 Hero/Villain Merits to get the IO at that level (using the level slider) you could purchase full sets of Crushing Impact, Thunderstrikes, etc.

3) You can save up Alignment Merits & Empyrean Merits (I think!) to get Purple & PVP IO recipes. This is a good deal, typically, as some of the PVP IOs are extremely expensive. At one point one of them was valued at worth more than the in-game currency cap.

4) Using AE is not necessary to craft. It *does* make things a lot easier - and you do not have to farm. There are a lot of good arcs to experience. Check out the Mission Architect forum to find some of them easily. With tickets you can attain all the salvage you will need for crafting with ease.