Avengers v X-Men - help my eyeballs
By
80sBaby,
Posted on: 2012-01-26 20:21 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Spiderman's agility as I recall is superhuman, or perhaps Olympic Gold Medalist+++++ . Between his speed and agility and spider sense it makes sense that none of the X-men could lay a hand or energy blast on him. |
Originally Posted by shaggy5
This is 100% accurate about the SW, but I have had a hard time swallowing it since I first read the story. He easily bested the entire team. Yes, it was fast and done quickly which gave Spidey an advantage, but he made the X-Men look like amateurs. Clearly (to me, at least) this happened because of his POPULARITY, not because it would really be that easy to beat them. I don't have the story in front of me, but wasn't it Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Prof. X? And Spidey can beat them all? I just don't think it could happen.
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Nightcrawler was there and yes he is agile, but I don't recall him having superhuman agility as part of his mutant powers, only from his acrobat days at the circus.
Colossus, yeah he can be fast but again Spidey would trump him in terms of speed. In terms of strength Spidey is inferior to him.
Cyclops: optic blasts, but his speed and reaction time are again still human.
Storm: weather control but not superhuman speed or agility.
Wolverine: yeah he's good, yeah he heals, yeah he's got claws and yeah he knows how to fight, but his speed and agility are still below Spiderman unless he got an upgrade in recent years.
Professor X: a telepath: his power works at the speed of thought
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The Horrors Of Spider Island!
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Because Marvel doesn't do thorough skill tests of some of the hack artists they've had of late. Check out the ugly artwork of the past several issues of Spiderman, especially that stupid Spider Island story.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Spiderman's agility as I recall is superhuman, or perhaps Olympic Gold Medalist+++++ . Between his speed and agility and spider sense it makes sense that none of the X-men could lay a hand or energy blast on him.
Nightcrawler was there and yes he is agile, but I don't recall him having superhuman agility as part of his mutant powers, only from his acrobat days at the circus. Colossus, yeah he can be fast but again Spidey would trump him in terms of speed. In terms of strength Spidey is inferior to him. Cyclops: optic blasts, but his speed and reaction time are again still human. Storm: weather control but not superhuman speed or agility. Wolverine: yeah he's good, yeah he heals, yeah he's got claws and yeah he knows how to fight, but his speed and agility are still below Spiderman unless he got an upgrade in recent years. Professor X: a telepath: his power works at the speed of thought |
Not that I've read anything about the fight but...
Couldn't Storm just summon winds/a tornado to sweep him off his feet?
Sure a "single target" attack like a punch can be dodged, but a huge location AoE?
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Or just summon freezing cold/snow/sleet to freeze him like she did to Omega Red in the 90's cartoon? (yes granted Colossus was holding Omega Red down but...)...
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Yep, certainly. AoEs are one of the best way to take out Spidey. But that fight was in close quarters, where she couldn't use her full powers and so she ended up just throwing lightning bolts. Also, to Spideys advantage was the fact that he was outnumbered, since all the X-Men had to be careful not to hit their teammates.
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Couldn't Storm just summon winds/a tornado to sweep him off his feet?
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
Not like I really have bothered to follow marvel in a decade, but ill toss in my 2 inf.
IT WILL SUCK!
Know Why?
X men have since team 2 gained so much popularity, and cyclops was forsaken by x fans as being to goody goody. When in fact he was the x equiv of Capt. America. Few these days even seem to recall how bad *** Scott was once portrayed as. But around the time they had him dump a pregnant wife to get back with the fake jean grey/Pheonix force clone thing, it was clear the writers were taking Scott on a road few would respect him after, and during all this the rise of Wolverine, a character who really never had enough power,or brains to be running in the cosmic classed crew he was on.
As for the evengers. I dont know if there is one left they havent already tainted. Iron Man...nope. Thor.....er uhm odin force...nuff said. Dare Devil...Admittedly cant recall any major DD dishonor in a long time. Oh wait I know in that BS punisher kill nick fury story, dare devil is actually fooled by robo fury. Yeah the single most super sensed hero who can identify people by a heart beat, or track a scent trail through a sewer, be tricked by a tin man.
So honestly I cant even see it being a good read. Last cross over event I recall reading with some interested was X-Men/WildC.A.T.S. which was sadly also wolverine centric for the x side. both the golden age, and the team x team 7 cross overs. Silver age was alot of fun seeing Grifter make out with Jean and it being the event that gave Mr Sinister the DNA of Jean to make madelyne Prior.
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LOL spidey, at launch within his first 6 issues, before he had a huge fan following, was depicted as easily outmatching all the super groups of the time. FF,Avengers, and X-men first class.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
This is 100% accurate about the SW, but I have had a hard time swallowing it since I first read the story. He easily bested the entire team. Yes, it was fast and done quickly which gave Spidey an advantage, but he made the X-Men look like amateurs. Clearly (to me, at least) this happened because of his POPULARITY, not because it would really be that easy to beat them. I don't have the story in front of me, but wasn't it Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Prof. X? And Spidey can beat them all? I just don't think it could happen.
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Its been clearly outlined that technically only Hulk,THor, and Thing where physically his superior in that early era. So really unless a foe is classed as equal to or tougher then them , they barely can touch spidey strength wise.
Spidey Web, which has only been improved with age, has been clearly stated as being strong enough that a single 1 inch thick strand can hold the thing until it dissolves on its own.
Few appreciate this, but when Peter wore the black suit symbiote, he was probably among the most powerful entities on earth in marvel at the time.
As for later X teams, well none has ever been better then First Class especially in the team work category.
1on1 I doubt there is an X-Man in the current era that really could potentially hold thier own against the guy in marvel who was easily able to out match superboy in marvel vs DC.
The one fight I can see being dangerous would be rogue, who being equal to old ms marvel, plus her natural ability, would just need to fight naked and get spidey out of his threads and bear hug him, Rogue does have one of those put anyone down who can be drained after all.
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That's a fight of both dreams and legends right there. Why hasn't this been done yet.
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
The one fight I can see being dangerous would be rogue, who being equal to old ms marvel, plus her natural ability, would just need to fight naked and get spidey out of his threads and bear hug him, Rogue does have one of those put anyone down who can be drained after all. |
The last cover featuring Cap and Wolvie is one of the most god awful creations ever. Wolverine looks like he is sitting on a garbage can just wildly swinging his arms as Cap is just sitting there saying "oh noes!".
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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Yep, certainly. AoEs are one of the best way to take out Spidey. But that fight was in close quarters, where she couldn't use her full powers and so she ended up just throwing lightning bolts. Also, to Spideys advantage was the fact that he was outnumbered, since all the X-Men had to be careful not to hit their teammates.
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Ah okay; at least that explains why/what happened to me.
Thanks!*stupid teammates always getting in the way!
*
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I would part with hard-earned cash just to see that issue...|
Originally Posted by Socorro
These debates are always hilarious. The winner of these fictional fights between fictional characters will be whoever the writers decide they want to win.
Aunt May can defeat Galactus on a day the writer hasn't had enough coffee yet |
/dribble
EDIT: Just saw the Cap vs Wolverine teaser... I see the point about garbage cans and 'Oh Noes!!!'
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I disagree.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Wolverine: yeah he's good, yeah he heals, yeah he's got claws and yeah he knows how to fight, but his speed and agility are still below Spiderman unless he got an upgrade in recent years.
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http://marvel.wikia.com/Spider-Man_V...verine_Vol_1_1
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Originally Posted by Coin
And the amusing thing?
Batman beats them all |
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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is he fighting Cap first or last? <.<
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Originally Posted by Coin
And the amusing thing?
Batman beats them all |
There was a "Wolverine vs Spiderman" single comic released a year or 2 before the real world Berlin Wall came down. Wolverine won because he was in beserk mode and Spiderman won't kill. Spidey did give a good account of himself, but Wolvie just wouldn't stop and Spiderman doesn't fight to the death.
As for Avengers vs X-men, it depends on why they're fighting . Either side has the power, ability, and skill to win. The reason for winning could be the main factor. Basically who want's it more
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The reason in a nutshell: the Phoenix Force is on it's way to Earth. The Avengers think it is coming to destroy Earth, and the X-men are hoping it signals the rebirth of the mutant race.
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Originally Posted by Beltor
There was a "Wolverine vs Spiderman" single comic released a year or 2 before the real world Berlin Wall came down. Wolverine won because he was in beserk mode and Spiderman won't kill. Spidey did give a good account of himself, but Wolvie just wouldn't stop and Spiderman doesn't fight to the death.
As for Avengers vs X-men, it depends on why they're fighting . Either side has the power, ability, and skill to win. The reason for winning could be the main factor. Basically who want's it more |
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Flip a coin|
Originally Posted by Nericus
The reason in a nutshell: the Phoenix Force is on it's way to Earth. The Avengers think it is coming to destroy Earth, and the X-men are hoping it signals the rebirth of the mutant race.
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Well hopefully they will keep mutants rare has hen's teeth so the speak. A hand full of mutants is more than enough.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
The reason in a nutshell: the Phoenix Force is on it's way to Earth. The Avengers think it is coming to destroy Earth, and the X-men are hoping it signals the rebirth of the mutant race.
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------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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to be fair in marvel vs DC cap and bats fought to a standstill. cap is really bats of marvel. they are both more about being a symbol for an ideal rather then just adventurers with powers as so many others are.
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Originally Posted by Coin
And the amusing thing?
Batman beats them all |
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Some of the advertised pairings are interesting.|
Originally Posted by Beltor
There was a "Wolverine vs Spiderman" single comic released a year or 2 before the real world Berlin Wall came down. Wolverine won because he was in beserk mode and Spiderman won't kill. Spidey did give a good account of himself, but Wolvie just wouldn't stop and Spiderman doesn't fight to the death.
As for Avengers vs X-men, it depends on why they're fighting . Either side has the power, ability, and skill to win. The reason for winning could be the main factor. Basically who want's it more |
Red Hulk vs Colossonaut
Ms Marvel vs Namor
Cyclops vs Captain America
And some of the pairings are head scratchers.
Iron Man vs Magneto? Even if it's IM in a non-metallic suit, still, poor Tony.
Thor vs Storm? Really? o.0
Doesn't seem like Xavier's involved, but Frost should still be able to shut down most of the Avengers before they can do much of anything.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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One reason that Spidey took out the entire X-Men team in 1984-85, during Secret Wars, is because they were still rank amatures. Most people tend to forget that.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
This is 100% accurate about the SW, but I have had a hard time swallowing it since I first read the story. He easily bested the entire team. Yes, it was fast and done quickly which gave Spidey an advantage, but he made the X-Men look like amateurs. Clearly (to me, at least) this happened because of his POPULARITY, not because it would really be that easy to beat them. I don't have the story in front of me, but wasn't it Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Prof. X? And Spidey can beat them all? I just don't think it could happen.
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The X-Men team in Secret Wars was Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Professor X, Rogue, Storm, Wolverine and Lockheed the Dragon. All of them except Cyclops and Lockheed first appeared in 1975s Giant Sized X-Men #1. So even though we had these characters for about nine years our time, it was probably less than a year comic time.
Spiderman, on the other hand had been around for 22 years by the time of Secret Wars, probably 2-3 or more years comic time. Add in the fact that Spideys always had a much better intuitive grasp on his powers than most mutants and the only one with more experience than him was Wolverine.
Of all the fights taking place here (if they are actually as shown), the one that I think would be the closest, and the one I am most looking forward to is the Beast/Cage fight. Cage is stronger and harder to hurt than Beast and has some training by Iron Fist (that he never seems to use). Beast is faster, smarter and more agile than Cage, plus has a fighting style that Marvel describes as similar to Spider-mans and has trained with Captain America. Both men have a bit of healing (Cage accelerated vs. Beast regenerative), though by the descriptions, Beasts is better. Both men have superhuman stamina, but Cage can go for longer before tiring (with Beast listed as several hours and Cage at 24 hours). We all know about Cages steel skin, but Beast also is listed as having Superhuman Durability able to withstand great impact forces
physical impacts, such as falling from several stories or being physically struck by many super-humanly strong beings that would either severely injure or kill a normal human with little to no discomfort. This is the kind of punishment Beast will take from Cage.
I really am looking forward to the fight, and I think its outcome comes down to how smart Beast fights, how many gadgets and how much of the environment the writers let him use. I really hope they let Beast win as he hasnt really had much in the way of fight wins in recent years (most writers seem to be using him for his science), while Cage for the past two or three Bendis years has been in the spotlight doing Avenger-y things. (and having sex and procreating with his now-wife.)
The other fight I think will be interesting will be the Emma/Hulk one. As Sinister proved recently, Emmas diamond form is not indestructible as we were led to believe for the past few years. (of course that all depends on when AvX takes place, when the whole thing was written, and if the writers care.) Hulk, on the other side, has proven in the past to be rather resistant to telepathy (dependent on incarnation and anger levels.) Depending on how hard Hulk pushes attacks on Emma, she cant afford to not be in her diamond form to avoid being squished. But while in that form, she cannot use her telepathy. I suspect this fight will be half within Hulks mindscape (which is no simple thing, what with his MPD) and half Emma trying to keep away from him so she can do the mental battle thingy.
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Frankly that wouldn't wash with me since Spiderman is pretty much as portrayed as very young despite the time his comics have been published, not to mention nearly all of his fighting skill seems to be by practical experience. Wolverine is defintely older and more experienced even at the time of Secret Wars and the multinational X-team have had some serious combat time over those nine years not including training time in say the Danger Room. |
Originally Posted by Samothrake
One reason that Spidey took out the entire X-Men team in 1984-85, during Secret Wars, is because they were still rank amatures. Most people tend to forget that.
The X-Men team in Secret Wars was Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Professor X, Rogue, Storm, Wolverine and Lockheed the Dragon. All of them except Cyclops and Lockheed first appeared in 1975s Giant Sized X-Men #1. So even though we had these characters for about nine years our time, it was probably less than a year comic time. Spiderman, on the other hand had been around for 22 years by the time of Secret Wars, probably 2-3 or more years comic time. Add in the fact that Spideys always had a much better intuitive grasp on his powers than most mutants and the only one with more experience than him was Wolverine. |
I pretty much chalk Spidey's wins up to the sacred cow mentality - namely Spidey is a headliner so he gets the win even if it should come out the other way.
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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Firelord was hungry for some pizza. Seriously, that was the setup for that fight.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
3. Firelord, herald of Galactus. HOW that happened is still a mystery. Firelord must have been only at 1/1000000th of his normal power levels in that fight considering what a herald of Galactus can usually do. (space flight, hyperspace, matter rearrangment, energy blasts, fly through stars and black holes, etc). |
As for Thor vs Storm, even if you take meleeing out of it and keep Thor from throwing his hammer, I remember reading somewhere (some canonical) that Thor could create weather from nothing whereas Storm had to manipulate current conditions and his Storm Summoning power were vastly superior to hers.
Anyway, I won't be buying it, I dropped out of comics about 5 years ago.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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*looks at covers*|
Originally Posted by ebon3
http://comics.ign.com/articles/121/1...2-01-13_163000=
So I see this link on IGN and click it. The first comic will answer a question I've always had about a guy who uses a magnetically reinforced exoskeleton against the master of magnatism (I always figured Tony would be on the severe losing end of that battle but I digress) However 9 covers down I see Thing versus what looks like a Colossus/Juggernaut hybrid?????????????????? Did Marvel really screw something up that bad or is this some one shot anomally (this collosnaut)? |
...
*gurgle-snort*
Originally i wasn't going to buy any issues of this "event", but having seen this article... Definitely not buying them. Although, the Elasti-Spider-Woman versus Cajun Gum(bo)-Man match up could be interesting. Except that i'm pretty sure they won't actually have Plastic Man's stretching powers in the comic.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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That, plus he's the underdog, and the underdog is usually favored in setups like this in the comics.|
Originally Posted by ebon3
I pretty much chalk Spidey's wins up to the sacred cow mentality - namely Spidey is a headliner so he gets the win even if it should come out the other way.
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A well-prepared individual does have some advantages against a larger group: not needing to coordinate with many others simplifies things and drastically speeds up your reaction times.
Consider a tennis match in which one well-trained professional simultaneously took on five amateur players and their coach. The six, fairly decent players when alone, would constantly be in each other's way, stealing balls from each other and hitting each other with their rackets. When a ball is served between them they have to decide which player will return it, wasting precious time. The team of six could easily all wind up with black eyes, bloody noses and broken teeth. After taking a few lumps, their best strategy would be for the five amateurs to cower in a corner and let their coach take on the pro solo.
I'm not intimate with the detailed lore, but the Spider Sense is basically a precognitive ability. Under some conditions, Spidey should know what you're going to do before you do it. That, along with familiarity with opponents' tactics, could reasonably allow him as a single individual to exploit a group's weaknesses and best them under certain conditions.
By the second or third such fight, though, solo Spidey would lose any advantages.
Batman beats them all
Well duh, he had a plan for just this sort of event.