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I've seen mobs stand and shake in AA though to be honest I've not looked for it or specifically noticed it since they made the confusion effects more visible. With Ice Control there's too much going on what with the mobs flopping and having purple bubbles on their heads. Mids even has the slotting options for both versions of the powers correct and has for some time. It's not a bug. Its been that way since they introduced Doms. That was of course back when CoX was "2 different games, yet one game". If the Dom version no longer applies both a fear and an afraid that would be the bug.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
That is really weird. Ice Control doesn't actually have Fear, it has Afraid, which causes enemies to run from you. Does slotting Fear enhancements actually increase Afraid values? I never noticed I could slot Fear on my Dominators, but this a serious bug either way, as the power should not have completely different slotting options on Controllers and Dominators.
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| That's not enough. You can also mitigate it with the Psi APP. But the fact is, without mezz protection AA detoggles entirely too often, which contributes to a set with on/off performance. 2 out of 10 Controller APPs and the possibility of IOs don't fix this by themselves. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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sure, but comparing dominators to the worst AT is not very useful
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Tell this to my Aura using blasters (/fire, /elec, and /dark) who have inspirations and outside buffs as their only means of keeping their Aura toggles on. Some are further hampered by having no single target hard control available in their primary let alone one with a decently quick animation time or adequate range.
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While it's possible slotting fear in the power changes how it works, I have personally never seen Arctic Air make an enemy cower. It's possible I just wasn't looking for it. However, the Afraid effect should cause them to try to run away, not cower. This is the same effect that is in Hot Feet and was in the previous version of Burn that causes enemies to scatter. Looking at Mids, I can't actually tell if slotting Fear enhancements increases Afraid duration, so I'd have to verify that in game.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I've seen mobs stand and shake in AA though to be honest I've not looked for it or specifically noticed it since they made the confusion effects more visible. With Ice Control there's too much going on what with the mobs flopping and having purple bubbles on their heads. Mids even has the slotting options for both versions of the powers correct and has for some time. It's not a bug. Its been that way since they introduced Doms. That was of course back when CoX was "2 different games, yet one game". If the Dom version no longer applies both a fear and an afraid that would be the bug.
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And I'm sorry, but having totally different slotting options depending on whether it's the Controller or Dominator version is either a bug, or a design "feature" needs to be changed. I'm leaning heavily toward "bug" myself. The fact that the bug has existed for a long time is not relevant. I doubt most people were are even aware of it. An Ice/Fire Dominator is my main character and I didn't even know that slotting was possible, because it stands in contrast to the Controller power and against every other Afraid causing power in the game that I can think of, because Afraid is normally not enhanceable (see Spectral Terror for an example of Terrify in the same power as Afraid).
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| Tell this to my Aura using blasters (/fire, /elec, and /dark) who have inspirations and outside buffs as their only means of keeping their Aura toggles on. Some are further hampered by having no single target hard control available in their primary let alone one with a decently quick animation time or adequate range. |
The fact is, Ice Control is a night and day set depending on whether you obtain mezz protection, and yes, that is a balance concern relative to other Control sets. I like playing my Ice characters because I completed that hurdle. I think they are pretty good next to my other characters now that they are IOed and incarnated. The path there was another story.
I investigated in game to see what slotting Fear in Arctic Air would do. From the screenshot it doesn't appear to do anything (look at what slotting Confusion does relative to slotting Fear):
It's possible the screenshot doesn't tell the full story, but it seems to me that the ability to slot Fear in Dominator AA is simply a bug.
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Tex is making some good points. I started this thread to focus on Ice Control alone vs the other control sets. If you were to list all the control sets once Darkness is out and the Gravity tweaks are in, I can guarantee you that Ice will stand alone at the bottom.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
While it's possible slotting fear in the power changes how it works, I have personally never seen Arctic Air make an enemy cower. It's possible I just wasn't looking for it. However, the Afraid effect should cause them to try to run away, not cower. This is the same effect that is in Hot Feet and was in the previous version of Burn that causes enemies to scatter. Looking at Mids, I can't actually tell if slotting Fear enhancements increases Afraid duration, so I'd have to verify that in game.
And I'm sorry, but having totally different slotting options depending on whether it's the Controller or Dominator version is either a bug, or a design "feature" needs to be changed. I'm leaning heavily toward "bug" myself. The fact that the bug has existed for a long time is not relevant. I doubt most people were are even aware of it. An Ice/Fire Dominator is my main character and I didn't even know that slotting was possible, because it stands in contrast to the Controller power and against every other Afraid causing power in the game that I can think of, because Afraid is normally not enhanceable (see Spectral Terror for an example of Terrify in the same power as Afraid). That has nothing to do with this discussion, because those Blasters aren't a control AT whose primary means of Control is avoiding getting detoggled, while competing with other Control sets that don't share the same vulnerability. Flashfire, Volcanic Gasses, Synaptic Overload, and so on, do not stop working if you get mezzed. Hot Feet and Electric's drain aura do, but are not a first line control. This discussion is about the various ways Ice Control lags behind other Control sets. What a Blaster is able to do with a damage toggle is not relevant. The fact is, Ice Control is a night and day set depending on whether you obtain mezz protection, and yes, that is a balance concern relative to other Control sets. I like playing my Ice characters because I completed that hurdle. I think they are pretty good next to my other characters now that they are IOed and incarnated. The path there was another story. |
Again, half its powers can be skipped NOT because the other half are so awesome, but because they contradict each other or are redundant. Slows are not alpha control options and do nothing to mitigate first strikes. Ice Slick is highly overrated as a primary control.
I'm not trying to slam the set. I am trying to get the set looked at and brought up to par with Earth, Mind, Electric, Plant, etc. Improving flash freeze would help. Improving shiver would help. Preventing powers from canceling each other would help. Broadening the control and debuff abilities would minimize redundancy. Nothing that has been suggested here would hurt the set and none of it would make it OP. The suggestions so far would only enhance Ice and make it more appealing to more players.
If Ice is so great as is and doesn't need any buffs, then it would rank at the top of the list. Go ahead and look at its competition and tell me it's in the top half:
Darkness*
Ice
Earth
Electric
Fire
Gravity
Illusion**
Mind
Plant
* still in BETA, but here's a video of my lowbie lvl 8 using 4 early powers to great effect
** controllers only, so it may be harder to compare here
IMO, ice, gravity and fire are the bottom 3 in terms of control ability with ice in last place. The grav tweaks will make that set better and if they decide to swap DS and WH, it'll be great. Fire is superior to ice with Flashfire vs Flash freeze, Hot Feet vs AA, Imps vs Jack, the holds and immobs being even. The leaves Bonfire and Smoke vs Ice Slick and Shiver. I call those toss-ups depending on the situation. And unlike ice, fire control can actually take advantage of its immob -kb by pairing it with bonfire. Try that with ice immobs and ice slick. You'll see just how weak -rech is vs death.
Please buff Ice Control.
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Yes, it is required for functionality. If you can get into range of a spawn, hit the power, and be dead before the animation finishes, then it *IS* non-functional. It didn't do its job. If you're on a team and you have someone who can run into a spawn and absorb the alpha, then using flash freeze on that spawn is redundant and it doesn't *matter* if it gets your face shot off or not. Bottom line, if you use a normally-slotted flash freeze on a spawn, it does not do the job like a proper control power should. You should not need to resort to aberrant slotting techniques to make a broken power work, not when other sets aren't required to labor under such limitations.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
It's not required to make the power functional. It works perfectly well on a team where you have an alpha absorber like a tank or a brute.
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| If you want it to work perfectly well solo adding a couple range enhancers works quite well. It solves the Alpha problem solo AND you get to use it from farther away ALL the time. That sounds like problem solved and BONUS! to me. |
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| A few flaws here. MOST AoE hard controls have short durations, long recharge, and lower than standard accuracy. If you are going to use them at all its 6 slots worth or you are wasting your time. With slows you can get lots of mitigation out of 3 or 4 slots. Ice control is probably one of the easiest control sets on your slot budget. That's what allows me to use a couple extra slots for range in Ice Slick and Flash Freeze. |
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| When you put it like that it makes it look bad. The problem is that you haven't added in all the other effects you get when you are using Ice control to cap -rech (you can't avoid them they are built in) you get that confusion that pulses and leaves things confused "most" of the time. You get the cower in fear when it ticks a large amount of the time, and it's all layered inside capped -rech and capped -run speed. |
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Spreading the Alpha out with a KD patch and slows is valuable. I admit its not near perfect mitigation like a hard control or soft capped defenses but spreading the Alpha out gives your regen a chance to work, gives you a chance to pop an inspiration with out getting overwhelmed with incoming damage, or a chance to activate a self heal and the opportunity for that self heal to recharge and be ready for use again before its needed. Last, but not least, hard controls DON'T lock every thing down immediately. I frequently take some alpha damage from opening with Cinders, Flash Fires, Char, etc. The thing with Stalagmites and Flash Fires is that they have a 70' range and a 25' radius. That means that the lead mob is generally in perception range but the rest of the spawn isn't. The lead mob gets a chance to retaliate and even if you notify with a miss the rest of the spawn doesn't because they don't chain aggro because you are out of perception range. |
And honestly, I don't seem to have alpha issues with regular controls. As long as I don't aggro the spawn *before* I cast the mez, except for the ones I miss (hence my 95% comment) I don't get shot while using fearsome stare, or seeds, or a regular ranged AoE hold. That's a heck of a lot different than getting shot by 50-100% of the spawn with flash freeze or ice slick in LOS.
(Also, cinders is PBAoE, and char is a ST hold. Why were you listing those?
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| Cooperative terrain is available in about 90% of the places you run into spawns on indoor maps. It is alot more common than you are making it sound and even when it is out of range a strategically placed Ice slick and a single pulling attack gives it right back to you. In any case all those things plus... an Alpha absorbing teammate like a brute or tank, 2 range enhancers in Ice Slick, 2 range enhancers in Flash Freeze. |
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And a change in mood is fine. I enjoyed the set myself, when I wasn't cursing at it. I don't *want* to turn the set into a carbon copy of the other sets in the game. Fixing flash freeze isn't going to turn it into a set where you only fight statues. It'll just fix the incredibly annoying and unacceptably large hole the set has in its selection of mitigation abilities.
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[edit: heh, beaten to the punch by 1 minute]
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Oh, and Miladys I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I admire you standing up for Ice. I was an equally strong supporter of Gravity. However, even I could see the early control weaknesses in grav and can see that the tweaks are needed. I'm hoping Synapse goes far enough and swaps WH with DS. I then hope he has time to look at Ice and eventually Fire. Those older sets need some love, too, to compete with the stronger sets.
Please buff Ice Control.
@ dugfromthearth
The comparison is a valid one. The devs do not simply compare one AT in a vacuum they compare it to all other ATs. If not then controller buffs would be equal to Defender buffs, Defender damage would be equal to Blaster damage, Dominator control durations would be equal to Controller durations etc.
The Devs were very careful to the point of obsession and obstinacy of not giving blasters meaningful mez protection during the defiance revamp even though all blaster survival that came from somewhere other than secondary power effects were from toggles (both offensive and defensive) that would drop on mez making most of the changes pointless and moot. Post level 30 my blasters spent 1/3 of their teaming time mezzed, a 1/3 of their teaming time retoggling, and about 1/6th of their time returning from the hospital. That meant that we were only blasting about 1/6th of the time we were playing. The no toggle drop on mez came after even though it was considered by many as an important part of the blaster revamp.
In actuality, allowing blasters to combine insps into another type did more for their survivability than the entire revamp did.
In any case with all that said I can't imagine that the devs would provide additional mez protection to controllers that are supposed to rely on their buffs and debuffs from their secondaries nor to dominators who have it reliably at least half the time (more than half to full time if IO sets are used)
@ Oedipus_Tex
I clearly recall on my first Ice/ Dom that I started not too long after CoV release that the mobs would both run away and cower in fear. It's been a long time so I'm not sure I have the chronology right but at release Dom AA was enhanceable for fear and the controller version never was. I remember in early posts controllers complaining about that but it was regarded as a feature for the Dom version not a bug.
The part of the chronology I'm not sure of is when the devs made a distinction between afraid and fear (originally all fear powers applied "run away" effects and IIRC slotting them made the run away duration longer) at one point they split them into the 2 separate effects we currently have.
I clearly remember that the Dom version did both at one time but the controller version never did. Originally you couldn't tell when the mobs were affected by the confuse in Artic Air. The devs added the purple bubbles a few issues later.
@ Muon_Neutrino
I'm not sure that I would consider adding range to be aberrant slotting. Range enhancers have existed since release, HO Centrioles have been around for a long time, and all of the sleep sets except Fortunata have a sleep/range enhancer in them. I would be willing to bet that the devs see slotting for range as a standard slotting style and not an aberrant one.
@ DarkCurrent
I'm not picking a fight either just pointing out that there are ways to mitigate many of the weaknesses that are being discussed here without having the devs resort to buffs. I'm not saying that I won't take buffs mind. I'm more concerned that the buffs not damage the unique flavor of the set.
@ Everyone
Most of you are focusing on the "this power sucks solo/having it while teamed is moot issue"
I know that you want it to work perfectly while solo but this is not and has never been a solo based game. The original dev design was to encourage teaming at all times. They did keep the ability to solo in mind but it was not a primary focus of design decisions. The new crop of devs seem to balance teaming utility and solo utility in a much more 50/50 type fashion but I know that making every last AT/Power set solo-able is not their main focus (or else defender soloing would not suck so badly).
In any case I've had my say and you all know my feelings on the matter. I would be surprised if the devs buff Ice/ as much as you are suggesting (though I would take it if so).
My last point and I'll leave you all to it after that. Flash Freeze and Ice Slick being base range 80 would solve most of the Alpha strike problems Ice faces solo. You'll have to pardon the analogy (and any snark either accidental or implied) but asking the devs to change the base range to 80 when you can just slot range enhancers is a bit like going to a restaurant to eat every meal when you have a whole pantry full of food at home. You have the means to do it for yourself but don't feel that you should have to.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I clearly recall on my first Ice/ Dom that I started not too long after CoV release that the mobs would both run away and cower in fear. It's been a long time so I'm not sure I have the chronology right but at release Dom AA was enhanceable for fear and the controller version never was. I remember in early posts controllers complaining about that but it was regarded as a feature for the Dom version not a bug.
The part of the chronology I'm not sure of is when the devs made a distinction between afraid and fear (originally all fear powers applied "run away" effects and IIRC slotting them made the run away duration longer) at one point they split them into the 2 separate effects we currently have. I clearly remember that the Dom version did both at one time but the controller version never did. Originally you couldn't tell when the mobs were affected by the confuse in Artic Air. The devs added the purple bubbles a few issues later. |
The purple Confuse indicator showed up during the Issue 16: Power Spectrum when it first became possible to recolor powers. I am almost positive a Terrify effect, if it existed prior to that, has not been removed from Dominators since that time.
The split between Terrify and Afraid itself happened in Issue 3, prior to the release of the Dominator AT.
The only note I can find about Dominator Fear and AA is in a Patch Note from 2007 that says that Fear IOs were "fixed" to work with AA for Dominators. However, I cannot find anything about there being an actual Terrify affect in AA.
The only other change I can find to AA is that was changed to debuff enemy Stealth in Issue 4. (I'm not convinced this actually works--I think Stealthed enemies can't be hit with AA at all, because you can't see them to hit them. I could be wrong about this though, and AA's autohit could be unrelated to the caster's ability to see the enemy. Part of the reason I doubt this is AA requires line of sight).
EDIT: Note that one change I would LOVE to AA would be to increase its radius from 25ft to 30ft. 30ft is actually the standard radius of PBAoE control powers (see Heart of Darkness in the new Dark Control set). I would also love AA to get a nice graphic that is more like a "snow globe" than just a ring around the caster. This would give Ice Control much better ability to leverage knockback, Repel, and Storm like powers.
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This would be absolutely awesome as an (optional, secondary) graphic!
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I would also love AA to get a nice graphic that is more like a "snow globe" than just a ring around the caster.
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"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
I like -knockback on my Ice/Storm controller, so I am against getting rid of that. Also, I hate Arctic Air. So making it even more of a lynchpin of the set for my Ice Doms will make me like the set less.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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The answer is: it depends.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Does slotting Fear enhancements actually increase Afraid values?
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SOs, including the Cosmic Ray exposure you had in your screenshot, do increase both Terrorized and Afraid. So do generic Fear IOs.
Endoplasms and Peroxisomes also increase Afraid and Terrorized.
So that means the enhancement window is wrong when it doesn't show it increasing anything.
Set IOs on the other hand (Horror, Unspeakable Terror, Nightmare, and Glimpse of the Abyss) only increase Terrorized. So those really will do nothing when slotted in Arctic Air, except for the endurance part.
Not really sure what the intent is, but it's definitely going on the "power system oddities" list.
I've never seen enemies cower while in Arctic Air unless affected by someone else's Terrorize. Maybe they were confused either feared each other or just played a similar animation?
As far as I can recall it's always been Afraid -- which just makes them run away; it's the same effect that Hot Feet has in it. I made my first Ice dom around Issue 11-ish I think, so it's possible it might have been different before then. It was definitely before the purple bubbles were added. It was also before the bug causing Contagious Confusion in AA to confuse your pets was fixed. Since the IO itself was added in I11 that sounds about right.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The only other change I can find to AA is that was changed to debuff enemy Stealth in Issue 4. (I'm not convinced this actually works--I think Stealthed enemies can't be hit with AA at all, because you can't see them to hit them. I could be wrong about this though, and AA's autohit could be unrelated to the caster's ability to see the enemy. Part of the reason I doubt this is AA requires line of sight).
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I don't mind the -kb, but it's the -kd that kills ice slick. I believe those two can be separated.
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Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I like -knockback on my Ice/Storm controller, so I am against getting rid of that. Also, I hate Arctic Air. So making it even more of a lynchpin of the set for my Ice Doms will make me like the set less.
Lewis |
Please buff Ice Control.
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Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I like -knockback on my Ice/Storm controller, so I am against getting rid of that. Also, I hate Arctic Air. So making it even more of a lynchpin of the set for my Ice Doms will make me like the set less.
Lewis |
I'm confused. If you're not using AA, and you're not using knockdown, what are you using? Just Shiver? I know Storm has enough control capability to allow that, but if neither AA or Ice Slick is the linchpin, whats left?
He's probably making use of the -KB to Herdicane every thing into a nice pile. An Ice/Storm can -rech cap every thing up to +4s with Snow Storm + Shiver and hit the "soft cap" for to hit debuff vs even cons with just SOs in Hurricane.
25% defense to all positions (you can get 7 of that with just SOs in Weave and Maneuvers) makes you pretty untouchable even vs +4s.
Slot Frostbite with damage procs, toss freezing rain onto the pile, and the Fire APP gives you a near perfectly safe killing machine especially if you throw 'nado and Lightening Storm into the mix.
There are a lot of players that miss out on that combo just because they hate chaos/knockback. Played properly, it's an extremely potent combination, especially in the late levels.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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In regards to range for Flash Freeze, first I'll point out that Spore Burst for whatever reason already has a 70 feet range, 10 feet better than FF, and both are still behind Mass Hypnosis at 80 feet. Even with the Sleep/Range enhancement FF is not quite reaching 70 feet, while Spore Burst can catch up to Mass Hypnosis with the same enhancement. Honestly, I'd normalize them all at 80 feet to match most of the TAoE holds and immobilizes. Slotting the Fortunata set is pretty standard practice in my book so I do consider slotting range enhancement in a sleep a bit odd.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
@ Muon_Neutrino
I'm not sure that I would consider adding range to be aberrant slotting. Range enhancers have existed since release, HO Centrioles have been around for a long time, and all of the sleep sets except Fortunata have a sleep/range enhancer in them. I would be willing to bet that the devs see slotting for range as a standard slotting style and not an aberrant one. ... My last point and I'll leave you all to it after that. Flash Freeze and Ice Slick being base range 80 would solve most of the Alpha strike problems Ice faces solo. You'll have to pardon the analogy (and any snark either accidental or implied) but asking the devs to change the base range to 80 when you can just slot range enhancers is a bit like going to a restaurant to eat every meal when you have a whole pantry full of food at home. You have the means to do it for yourself but don't feel that you should have to. |
Ice Slick, on the other hand, I'd simply leave alone. It shares its range with Earthquake, Volcanic Gasses, Sleet, and Static Field. At most, I think 70 feet would be a reasonable compromise.
But more importantly, let's look at the damage in Flash Freeze. That really just boggles my mind. Half the Interface powers will break the sleep thanks to it. It ruins alpha mitigation by delaying the sleep. What purpose, if any, did it ever serve? And if it has one, why is it absent from all other sleeps available to controllers and doms?
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
He's probably making use of the -KB to Herdicane every thing into a nice pile. An Ice/Storm can -rech cap every thing up to +4s with Snow Storm + Shiver and hit the "soft cap" for to hit debuff vs even cons with just SOs in Hurricane.
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If that's the case, it still leaves questions about why why we'd avoid making either AA or Ice Slick as a linchpin for Ice Control in general. Something has to be.
You could do the same trick above with anything/Storm, except most enemies would actually be mezzed AND recharge floored (Snow Storm + Freezing Rain = -102.5% Recharge, without any need for Ice Control at all). No it doesn't work on +4s specifically, but even those are at -50% Recharge plus a mezz, and that is probably more effective than just -75% alone.
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Perhaps calling it 'aberrant' isn't quite the right word, but it was the closest I could come. My point isn't that slotting for range is somehow wrong or shouldn't be allowed, but that slotting this power for range shouldn't have such a disproportionate impact on its effectiveness. That is, the *effect* of this slotting is aberrant, not the choice to slot it that way itself. Simply calling it an 'aberrant slotting' I guess was my clumsy attempt to sum up that concept in a couple words. Going back to the hypothetical example I posed on page 1, slotting taunt (a secondary effect) enhancers in KO blow wouldn't be aberrant. Having those enhancers suddenly doubling the power's damage (the power's primary effect) would be.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
@ Muon_Neutrino
I'm not sure that I would consider adding range to be aberrant slotting. Range enhancers have existed since release, HO Centrioles have been around for a long time, and all of the sleep sets except Fortunata have a sleep/range enhancer in them. I would be willing to bet that the devs see slotting for range as a standard slotting style and not an aberrant one. |
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@ Everyone Most of you are focusing on the "this power sucks solo/having it while teamed is moot issue" |
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| My last point and I'll leave you all to it after that. Flash Freeze and Ice Slick being base range 80 would solve most of the Alpha strike problems Ice faces solo. You'll have to pardon the analogy (and any snark either accidental or implied) but asking the devs to change the base range to 80 when you can just slot range enhancers is a bit like going to a restaurant to eat every meal when you have a whole pantry full of food at home. You have the means to do it for yourself but don't feel that you should have to. |
If I were to recast that analogy to the situation as I see it, though, I'd say it was a situation where you have no food at home and you want to go out to dinner, but instead are told that the houseplants are technically edible and you could cook and eat them instead. Both will accomplish the objective (assuming for the sake of argument non-toxic plants
), but one of them is not something you should have to do just to fill your stomach.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Originally Posted by ketch
In regards to range for Flash Freeze, first I'll point out that Spore Burst for whatever reason already has a 70 feet range, 10 feet better than FF, and both are still behind Mass Hypnosis at 80 feet. Even with the Sleep/Range enhancement FF is not quite reaching 70 feet, while Spore Burst can catch up to Mass Hypnosis with the same enhancement. Honestly, I'd normalize them all at 80 feet to match most of the TAoE holds and immobilizes. Slotting the Fortunata set is pretty standard practice in my book so I do consider slotting range enhancement in a sleep a bit odd.
<snip> But more importantly, let's look at the damage in Flash Freeze. That really just boggles my mind. Half the Interface powers will break the sleep thanks to it. It ruins alpha mitigation by delaying the sleep. What purpose, if any, did it ever serve? And if it has one, why is it absent from all other sleeps available to controllers and doms? |
I completely agree here.
There is no rhyme or reason to the sleep powers in the game and they are a frequently skipped power and have been since release. Flash Freeze notifies, does damage, and has a base range of 60. Spore Burst notifies, does not do damage, and has a base range of 70. Mass Hypnosis does not notify, does no damage, and has a base range of 80.
If you want to look further at the wackiness that are sleep powers in this game....
Mass Hypnosis has a base recharge of 45 seconds and a base duration of 17.88 seconds and range 80 and does not damage.
Salt Crystals has a base recharge of 90 seconds and a base duration of 14.9 seconds and is a PBAoE and does no damage.
Blaster Sirens Song has a base recharge of 20 seconds and a base duration of 35.76 seconds and range 40 and does damage.
Defender Sirens Song has a base recharge of 20 seconds and a base duration of 44.7 seconds and range 40 and does damage.
Blaster Frozen Aura is a mag 2 PBAoE sleep with a base recharge of 20 seconds and a base duration of 23.84 seconds a 10 foot radius and does no damage.
Tanker Frozen Aura is a mag 2 PBAoE sleep with a base recharge of 20 seconds and a base duration of 11.9 seconds a 10 foot radius and does considerable damage (base 63.17)
There are many more but sleeps in the game are all over the map.
Sleep sets enhance duration and are very very light on recharge. The way that all sleeps but Static Field (Static Field was released after the sleep sets though) works this is entirely backwards from what you would expect. A single point of damage or healing, or a slight repositioning of a mob will make it instantly awake and attacking with out penalty of any kind. Making the enhancement of duration moot. Focusing sets on duration rather than recharge is the exact opposite of what would be logical.
The reason that sleeps have damage in them was revealed to us by Castle in the closed Beta Test that included the revamp of Tanker Frozen Aura (and this make no sense either but bear with me). We were told that being able to stack sleep mag was too powerful and that having enough damage to wake the mobs would still put the player in jeopardy, which was the intent. When I pointed out that some sleeps didn't have a damage component he didn't reply and just kept on doing what he was doing.
If they really wanted to fix this (the "Mass Hypnosis" slotted with "Induced Coma" and "owie I got a sliver but now I'm wide awake and not groggy at all" conundrum) add a -35% recharge debuff (unenhanceable) and a 20% to hit debuff (enhanceable) [and both debuffs should account for AT modifiers] to the first 1/4 of the sleep duration. That way if the sleep is broken 1 second after it is applied it still has a some value.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
If that's the case, it still leaves questions about why why we'd avoid making either AA or Ice Slick as a linchpin for Ice Control in general. Something has to be.
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| You could do the same trick above with anything/Storm, except most enemies would actually be mezzed AND recharge floored (Snow Storm + Freezing Rain = -102.5% Recharge, without any need for Ice Control at all). No it doesn't work on +4s specifically, but even those are at -50% Recharge plus a mezz, and that is probably more effective than just -75% alone. |
As an example Trick Arrow under performs as a defender primary but is nearly over powered as a controller secondary.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Perhaps calling it 'aberrant' isn't quite the right word, but it was the closest I could come. My point isn't that slotting for range is somehow wrong or shouldn't be allowed, but that slotting this power for range shouldn't have such a disproportionate impact on its effectiveness. That is, the *effect* of this slotting is aberrant, not the choice to slot it that way itself. Simply calling it an 'aberrant slotting' I guess was my clumsy attempt to sum up that concept in a couple words. Going back to the hypothetical example I posed on page 1, slotting taunt (a secondary effect) enhancers in KO blow wouldn't be aberrant. Having those enhancers suddenly doubling the power's damage (the power's primary effect) would be.
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| The reason we're focusing on it is that this is a nonsensical situation. It doesn't make a difference whether the AT and powersets are intended to solo or not, the power is next to useless either way. In what way is that supposed to be an acceptable situation? |
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I understand that you're not trying to be snarky here. However, I have to say, I find your analogy extremely unconvincing. For one, going to a restaurant and eating at home are not mutually exclusive, and neither is one inherently superior to the other. Second, both of those are perfectly normal ways to get food, which is not analogous to the situation here. Going out instead of eating the food you have is making a choice to ignore something which fulfills the same purpose in an exactly equivalent way. If flash freeze worked just fine to absorb alphas, and we just refused to use it and demanded that the devs make ice slick non-notify or something, then I think that analogy would apply. If I were to recast that analogy to the situation as I see it, though, I'd say it was a situation where you have no food at home and you want to go out to dinner, but instead are told that the houseplants are technically edible and you could cook and eat them instead. Both will accomplish the objective (assuming for the sake of argument non-toxic plants ), but one of them is not something you should have to do just to fill your stomach.
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She said that asking the devs to change Flash Freeze to stop Alphas when you can do it yourself by slotting range is like being 40 years old and having your mom cut your meat for you at the dinner table. You shouldn't really expect it unless you only have one hand (like her sister's husband).
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
She said that asking the devs to change Flash Freeze to stop Alphas when you can do it yourself by slotting range is like being 40 years old and having your mom cut your meat for you at the dinner table. You shouldn't really expect it unless you only have one hand (like her sister's husband).
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The best way to slot Flash Freeze is to not slot it at all. It's a terrible power. If you are an incarnate and select an Interface with a DoT the power doesn't even perform its primary function. I'm also curious why it requires the main target be on the ground in order to work. It leaves you without a standard alpha buster, but Ice Slick (which I agree functions well with Range) is a better opener most of the time. Regardless, I strongly disagree with you that slotting Range in Flash Freeze fixes anything. I actually find the statement bizarre. Are you just being rhetorical and/or sarcastic?
I honestly think Ice Control is a victim of the fact that long ago, people waaay overestimated the effectiveness of -Recharge. It does work, and it's not terrible, but reading posts from that era it seems apparent people (possibly even the developers at that time) didn't understand that -Recharge caps at -75%. Shiver actually once had a 30 second duration and it was nerfed to 18 seconds. At least that made skipping the power an easy decision; hopping in and out of melee might be practical for a power like Heart of Darkness since you only have to fire it every so often, but the conflict between AA and Shiver is really silly, since moving away from melee has fairly immediate effects and Shiver's duration is too short to cover most of the timeframe during which enemies would even have powers recharging.
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It's neither sarcastic nor rhetorical. The only time I eat a huge alpha when I open with range enhanced Flash Freeze is the rare occasion when I misjudge my distance to the nearest mob.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The best way to slot Flash Freeze is to not slot it at all. It's a terrible power. If you are an incarnate and select an Interface with a DoT the power doesn't even perform its primary function. I'm also curious why it requires the main target be on the ground in order to work. It leaves you without a standard alpha buster, but Ice Slick (which I agree functions well with Range) is a better opener most of the time. Regardless, I strongly disagree with you that slotting Range in Flash Freeze fixes anything. I actually find the statement bizarre. Are you just being rhetorical and/or sarcastic?
I honestly think Ice Control is a victim of the fact that long ago, people waaay overestimated the effectiveness of -Recharge. It does work, and it's not terrible, but reading posts from that era it seems apparent people (possibly even the developers at that time) didn't understand that -Recharge caps at -75%. Shiver actually once had a 30 second duration and it was nerfed to 18 seconds. At least that made skipping the power an easy decision; hopping in and out of melee might be practical for a power like Heart of Darkness since you only have to fire it every so often, but the conflict between AA and Shiver is really silly, since moving away from melee has fairly immediate effects and Shiver's duration is too short to cover most of the timeframe during which enemies would even have powers recharging. |
There are mobs that are immune to sleep and mobs that are immune to knock effects those give me trouble but all power sets have some sort of weak spot in them.
Have you tried? Copied over to test and added some range slotting to Flash Freeze and then being patient enough to let your mitigation develop?
My wife reads the forums over my shoulders on occasion (she has a forum account but I think she's posted with it a total of 5 times in the last 5 years) she's been reading this thread and shaking her head because the very thing you say doesn't work is how we've been duoing +0/x6 missions with our level 30ish SO/frankenslotted toons. My Ice/Earth Dom and her DB/Regen scrapper.
I lead off with range enhanced Flash Freeze, move into Shiver range and use that, Block of Ice a lieutenant, move into close range and wait for purple bubbles to appear and drop Ice Slick on the spawn.
She jumps in when she sees the purple bubbles start or she picks up any bosses in the spawn when Domination is down (because they'll close because they aren't slept with a mag 3 sleep).
You all are going to make me break down and buy demoedit software and learn how to use it just so I can post a demo aren't you?
Edit - Also why on Earth would you actively select an Incarnate Interface you know will break sleep if you are using a sleep as an opener?
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
OT,
I use Ice Slick and sometimes I add in Shiver. But not for long. As soon as they are falling and slow, I touch them with hurricane to neutralize their accuracy, then immobilize them. That kills the ice slick, but it has done its work. From there, once the opening control of ice slick has worked its magic, it is all about crushing them with /storm. And so from there, I want -kb.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Btw, I do have AA, I just dont enjoy it much. But it is a tool that I will sometimes use. Similarly, there are times I avoid frostbite and I go heavy on the ranged soft control (on teams with no other -kb). So, I mix and match. But I definitely want to keep the -kb for times when I want to lean on storm.
I also prefer to keep it on my ice/energy dom, because I like to prevent knockback then too;and sometimes I like it. I let frostbite determine which I get.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
My Ice/Earth Dominator is in the high 30's now, and... Honestly, the only thing relevant to this thread that I would change is increasing the damage dealt by both Flash Freeze and Frostbite. Flash Freeze is perfectly effective for me and my playstyle. Basically, you leap into melee, Frostbite>Flash Freeze>Tremor. At this point, AA has taken hold on most of the spawn, and you can use Block of Ice to keep bosses/LT's under control. Once Flash Freeze/Frostbite wears off of anything Tremor or Mud Pots hasn't disturbed yet, I drop Ice Slick to keep everything either confused from AA or flopping around like a fish on the floor, continuing work on bosses/LT's, etc. Every third spawn or so is like sandblasting soup crackers. The lucky spawn gets a treatment of Domination>Power Boost (I love Earth Assault)>Glacier, Block of Ice/Seismic Smash on Bosses to keep *everything* Held for a very long time.
Aside from the debate on how terrible Flash Freeze is (which in reality, it really isn't. Ice Control just requires a different playstyle and more thought, which is fine by me), and what "needs to be fixed" in Ice Control, the only things I would REALLY like to see changed (I was half joking on buffing the damage of FF/Frostbite, but wouldn't say no if they did), would be a drop in the endurance cost of AA (or Mud Pots. lol).
As far as I am concerned, Ice Control is just fine the way it is. Would we all love it if it got buffed? Sure. But I could say the same for a dozen other powersets. It doesn't NEED a buff. Personally, if they buff any particular powerset, I'd like to see Energy Melee get a buff before I would get concerned about Ice Control. That's not to say EM is at the top of my "Needs to be buffed" list, but it's pretty darn close.
Unfortunately, no. -Recharge only has an effect on powers that have been used. That is why I have an issue with Shiver's duration. It could very well take the power's entire duration before enemies are out of attacks. The reason Arctic Air works well is the Confusion causes enemies to discharge their attacks into each other, meaning that they can only attack you both when their powers recharge and when they are not confused; if they are confused in the moment it recharges, they will waste it on one of their allies again.
[Note, however, that I do think -Recharge is a lot better than its sometimes given credit for. A lot of enemies have only one or two ranged attacks and several melee ones, so if you floor their recharge, they do run out of attacks pretty quickly.]