Quote:
If only it was that simple. Isn't it somewhat rare for the devs to completely change a power? I was shocked when they changed Poisons' Poison Trap.
|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Ahem. Then you'd have Earth Control.
See how easy that was? |
Quote:
No, you wouldn't. If FF was turned into a Disorient, you'd still have differences between the two sets:|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Ahem. Then you'd have Earth Control.
See how easy that was? |
On the ice control side:
Arctic Air
Shiver
Glacier
On the earth control side:
Quicksand
Salt Crystals
Volcanic Gasses
---
I'd consider those differences significant.
The game ends at 50.
SmilegasmDo not ever give Mind Control a pet.
We need more control sets without pets.My characters are not "toons".
They are all project characters, though.Global chat @Lxndr My servers: Defiant, Liberty, Pinnacle, Virtue
Earth Control Plays so much differently than Ice control. Heck Earthquake alone can do three things (Apply -Res, KD, -To Hit) compared to Ice Slick's only trick KD.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Ahem. Then you'd have Earth Control.
See how easy that was? |
No you wouldn't. Once again I think you are oversimplifying by treating Ice Control as Earth Control with Stalagmites removed.
EDIT: But I'd still be opposed to just giving Ice Control a Flashfire clone.
One of the issues I have so far is that a lot of these suggestions are to just remove the -KB aspect from Frostbite but that won't really solve the problem that Ice Slick has. While running in teams, Ice Slick immediately loses effectiveness anytime anyone uses any AoE Immobilize, so Ice Slick finds itself obsolete on many teams just because someone won't stop firing off their immobilize.
The -KB from Frostbite has it's uses. I run an Ice/Storm troller, and the best way to do damage for that set is to use frostbite to lock the enemy down, then fire off a tornado into the group. The -KB makes it so the tornado doesn't throw enemies away, and thus causes a high DoT effect. This is just an example, but I am sure that other sets have combinations where the -KB effect is beneficial.
The best way to fix Ice Slick is to just tweak Ice Slick by itself. How to do that, I am not sure of, however.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
Possibly remove -KU from Frostbite and change Ice Slick to Knock Up, making it unenhanceable. It shouldn't look too different.
Quote:
Add DoT damage in Ice Slick!!! I call Ice Slick a "butt torture". :P |
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
The best way to fix Ice Slick is to just tweak Ice Slick by itself. How to do that, I am not sure of, however. |
Every time I see Ice Slick go off, I see mobs slipping several times. It must have hurt their butts!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Great point. I forgot about the immobs from others messing Slick up. I recall way back when running an all-dom Ice 'slow' team and having problems with a couple pugs that were using immobs. Nuked the advantage of ice slick completely (we could carpet an entire room with the things).|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
One of the issues I have so far is that a lot of these suggestions are to just remove the -KB aspect from Frostbite but that won't really solve the problem that Ice Slick has. While running in teams, Ice Slick immediately loses effectiveness anytime anyone uses any AoE Immobilize, so Ice Slick finds itself obsolete on many teams just because someone won't stop firing off their immobilize.
The -KB from Frostbite has it's uses. I run an Ice/Storm troller, and the best way to do damage for that set is to use frostbite to lock the enemy down, then fire off a tornado into the group. The -KB makes it so the tornado doesn't throw enemies away, and thus causes a high DoT effect. This is just an example, but I am sure that other sets have combinations where the -KB effect is beneficial. The best way to fix Ice Slick is to just tweak Ice Slick by itself. How to do that, I am not sure of, however. |
Anyway, this is at the root of my complaint about the set. So much of its control centers on Ice Slick because there are few other options. And when you lose that control because of whatever reason, you're left scrambling for options. Pretty much every other control set has a couple other controls you can use.
Ice has Slick for range and AA for melee. Slick can be ruined by other powers in the set or by other teammates using their powers. It's a problem. I think the solution is to make some of the other powers better. The two biggest flops are Shiver and Flash Freeze. What if Flash Freeze was an AoE patch sleep like Electric? It could be a zone of cryogenic temperature that flash freezes anything that enters it.
Or for Shiver, give it some debuff like -range, or -dmg, or -to hit on top of its -spd and -rch. Maybe put a chance to hold in there. Or a fear effect. You're so cold you have to shiver in place cowering in fear.
Please buff Ice Control.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
The best way to fix Ice Slick is to just tweak Ice Slick by itself. How to do that, I am not sure of, however.
|
Agreed. This is why I suggested splitting the knockdown in Ice.
Vs minions, lts, and bosses, make it unresistable. They have a chance to fall no matter what cages someone puts on them, and even if they have inherent kd protection (since having your feet slip out from under you is somewhat different than being physically blown over by force).
Vs everything else, it works as normal.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Or for Shiver, give it some debuff like -range, or -dmg, or -to hit on top of its -spd and -rch. Maybe put a chance to hold in there. Or a fear effect. You're so cold you have to shiver in place cowering in fear.
|
I like my solution for Shiver the most :P
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
5. Shiver- Make it a Neurotoxic Breath Clone but with a guaranteed Special or a 75-90% chance Special instead of Neurotoxic's 25% (Mag 2) Chance to hold. The special should be "Target Held for 2 seconds" BUT you can slot holds in it so you have the potential to max it out for 4 or 5 seconds or greater. This will make Shiver Perfect for Alphas Stoppers and it should give you enough time to let AA, Glacier or Ice Slick do its job. If someone would complain that this is OP then you could balance the power out by reducing the values of the slow and -Recharge in the power.
|
-range in shiver does sound great.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
What's sad is that a bunch of us players who come at this issue with varying experience and insights can come to a consensus on how to tweak a set in a couple weeks. Meanwhile the devs take years (if ever) to make an adjustment and it typically ignores the problem (see gravity tweaks).
Honestly, how long would it take to adjust the code for Shiver to have a -range effect and put it on Test Server for some feedback? I'd really like to see more of that sort of mini-testing on set tweaks from here on out. There would be no promises of permanent changes, but at least things could be looked at quickly and more dynamically than the glacial speed we have now.
Please buff Ice Control.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
What's sad is that a bunch of us players who come at this issue with varying experience and insights can come to a consensus on how to tweak a set in a couple weeks. Meanwhile the devs take years (if ever) to make an adjustment and it typically ignores the problem (see gravity tweaks).
|
Of course we can, because if our ideas blow up in our faces and turn out to suck, we don't get blamed for it.
Not to mention, this is a two way street. When players of this game complain about developers not proactively tweaking sets, they're talking about buffs. They don't mean nerfs. And the honest truth is that you can only buff for so long before it becomes apparent that a nerf would have achieved the same affect faster and more honestly. When players start demanding balance more than they demand buffs to this or that I'll more willingly support large scale changes. But that isn't the culture of this game and IMO just buffing stuff left and right creates major issues (in fact, its exactly what caused the Earth pet to be head and shoulders better than Ice's).
Quote:
I chuckle at the validity of this. While the current devs shouldn't do like back in the early days of CoH and beat some powersets with a steel cane, some could probably stand to be adjusted downward slightly for the sake of everything else in the game. However, we all know that people will complain irregardless of how fair a fix may be. The main thing that bugs me with the devs is the lack of smaller changes. It seems like a number of smaller changes in the vein of value tweaks could be made to some powers that would help things out immensely but there seems to be an all or nothing vibe to changes.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
When players of this game complain about developers not proactively tweaking sets, they're talking about buffs. They don't mean nerfs. And the honest truth is that you can only buff for so long before it becomes apparent that a nerf would have achieved the same affect faster and more honestly.
|
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Please buff Ice Control.
As far as my own thoughts concerning Ice Control from reading this thread, the things that seem best would be:
- Remove the damage and increase the range of Flash Freeze. The damage just doesn't make sense at all. To my understanding, Frozen Aura works the way it does because it's a primarily a damage power and the sleep is just a bonus. Flash Freeze's damage only seems to cause it problems since it's not enough to matter and Interface removes the option of making it non-aggro damage like World of Confusion.
- Add a -range debuff to Shiver, add 50% chance to sleep + allow slotting for Sleep IOs. Would add more synergy to both Arctic Air and Flash Freeze while being better on it's own. Adding -special would be nice but not necessarily needed.
- The -KB in Frostbite should only activate if an immob has already been applied to the enemy. I forget where on the forums I read this but it was pointed out that the hold in Ice Blast acts like this and it should be how it works for Ice's immob. A single application wouldn't mess up Ice Slick while stacking it still allows it to counteract KB abilities.
- Reduce recharge and lower endurance cost on Arctic Air.
- Allow Ice Slick to be slotted with Slow and/or Knockback IOs.
Quote:
I agree with a lot of your suggestion except this. Knockback slotting would cause the knockdown to become knockback and scatter enemies off of the slick. Also, with -90% runspeed and a debuff to the max runspeed there isn't much need to slot slows at all. It would allow for some set muling or proc'ing but I think it opens the door for a lot of misslotting.
|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
As far as my own thoughts concerning Ice Control from reading this thread, the things that seem best would be:
|
Procs and frankenslotting were my main mindset with the suggestion. Considering Ice Slick's KB is 0.5 as opposed to 0.67, would it manage to cross over the 0.75(?) threshold for KD/KB if lightly slotted? I guess leaving out KB would be the safest bet.
FWIW I am really very strongly against Shiver becoming a mezz or typical debuff. IMO a change like that would be make the set even more aggressively anti-synergistic. Dark Control can hop in, stun the enemies, and then hop back out and go about its business. Ice needs to stand on top of enemies over the long haul. That's why I suggested Shiver be a -Range cone, to make enemies run toward you and your aura. If we're talking about things that would help my Ice characters out, massive Shiver changes like would not. They actually have the potential to make the set even more frustrating to play.
I strongly dislike -range in shiver. Everybody else seems to love the hell out of arctic air and playing in melee, but I do not. Specifically, this kills the choice to play at range, and one of ice controls good points is that it can be built to operate at range, or in close, or my favorite: both as warranted by circumstances.
Doms may have melee options, but people can and do make ranged doms. I play ice/fire and ice/energy primarily at range. And lots of controllers mesh better with ranged tactics (trick arrow leaps to mind). You may consider it ineffective, but some people dont even take AA. I sometimes skip it.
So shiver having -range kills that power dead, and forces the only valid playstyle to be ranged. You want to be in melee, move into melee.
So, no thanks. I find that to be even less tolerable than removimg -kb from Frostbite.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Quote:
I don't think it would adversely affect playing at range. Unless you're use Ice Slick alone at range and not utilizing Frostbite. Even then I'd be more wary of overpowering Ice by allowing it to immobilize foes at range, debuff their range attacks, and then stay far out of their range to retaliate.
|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I strongly dislike -range in shiver. Everybody else seems to love the hell out of arctic air and playing in melee, but I do not. Specifically, this kills the choice to play at range, and one of ice controls good points is that it can be built to operate at range, or in close, or my favorite: both as warranted by circumstances.
Doms may have melee options, but people can and do make ranged doms. I play ice/fire and ice/energy primarily at range. And lots of controllers mesh better with ranged tactics (trick arrow leaps to mind). You may consider it ineffective, but some people dont even take AA. I sometimes skip it. So shiver having -range kills that power dead, and forces the only valid playstyle to be ranged. You want to be in melee, move into melee. So, no thanks. I find that to be even less tolerable than removimg -kb from Frostbite. Lewis |
-range in Shiver would actually help ranged play. You could then go with a -range + immob tactic to keep mobs at a distance and neutering their ability to strike back. Would pair nicely with ice slick if they're flopping and have -range debuff.
I'd really like to make flash freeze sleep like elec's static field... pulsing sleep. Then it wouldn't get nuked with ice slick's kd or immob's damage.
Put those two changes in and ice would keep its status as king of slows, plus lose a lot of its bipolar problems and give it options other than Slick --- charge --> AA.
Please buff Ice Control.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ketch
I don't think it would adversely affect playing at range. Unless you're use Ice Slick alone at range and not utilizing Frostbite. Even then I'd be more wary of overpowering Ice by allowing it to immobilize foes at range, debuff their range attacks, and then stay far out of their range to retaliate.
|
I was worried about this too. No doubt the -Range debuff would have to be fairly short and difficult/impossible to perma.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Uncicyle Peon
So shiver having -range kills that power dead, and forces the only valid playstyle to be ranged. You want to be in melee, move into melee.
|
You're right Oedipus! (Just finished testing it out again on live) Indeed they do because once they use their ranged attack it's pretty much useless once you take down their recharge to -81...but their melee attacks still seem to recharge fast enough to own you and the Values on a Dominator are much lower compared to the Controller version.
See how easy that was?
Please buff Ice Control.