is all high level content as stupid as the ITF is now?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-01-08 12:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Whatever your preference, a little bit of communication beforehand can go a long way towards making sure that everyone on the team that you are assembling can have a good time.
Some people like things that others don't and there is no sense in not making sure you have like-minded players along with you for whatever fun-ride your planning to lead (no sense in including people who don't like it).
It's pretty simple really and no one's fun is any lesser than anyone else's (well, besides those who enjoy muzak).
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Well, case in counterpoint, mobs in this game (and pretty much every other one, including the very most recent MMO on the street) stand around waiting for player characters to engage them. Fighting them one or even a few spawns at a time across a map containing hundreds of them makes just as little sense as rushing past them.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Case in point, if in a superhero table top game, if the PCs did something as silly as race to the final room past dozens of guards thinking those guards weren't going to keep chasing them like they do in the CPU version of this game, they'd have a nasty surprise awaiting them. Same with assuming that only 16 enemies at a time max would bother to aggro on you, and that enemies would leash after 200ft or so if you didn't hit them back.
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Let's not wish for a GM to react only to the nonsensical behavior you happen to disapprove of.
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Some people that wouldn't or couldn't do speed runs in the past are doing them now. Personally, I've been on one sub-20 minute ITF. Plenty under 25 minutes though. I still have to head desk when a player tells me that a speed run is 35-40 minutes.
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Originally Posted by Acemace
Sub 20 minute ITFs had been happening frequently long before anyone knew what a Lambda was
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In your opinion... Sorry I just hate it when people state things as if they were fact when they are simply an opinion. There is absolutely no evidence to support or deny this which makes it - an opinion based on your personal experience/ideology.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Yeah, I should have said that they are more prevalent because of speed iTrials. A lot of the players that were not doing speed runs got used to doing speed runs because of Lambda.
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Sorry but I have NEVER done anything but speed tfs. The people I team with for the past few years that is what we do and it has nothing to do with lambda or any other trial changing our play-style. Incarnate abilities have not really decreased our timing substantially on TFs.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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+4 ITFs for the win.
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Oh ffs. This is such an asinine argument. The only reason I can see anyone make it is to be contrary. Are you really arguing that when the devs create a mission they don't set it up with the idea that people start at the beginning and go from there? You want facts to back it up? Ambush triggers.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Close enough to not matter. Also, [citation needed] still. I only see "Defeat 100 Traitors" in the objective window. I don't see "Defeat 100 Traitors, starting from front to back and not veering off the course by more than a 60 degree angle or 200ft".
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I'm not saying it's wrong in any way to not stick to that path if you don't want too (aside me preferring to do it that way). But saying missions aren't designed with a certain path to follow in mind is just idiotic.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Sorry, but, on Union at least, even that isn't true. I really haven't noticed any difference in number of speedruns before or after iTrials. The alpha slot, however, when it was first released did bring back the full ITF run as the "shard ITF". Before that there were hardly any ITF runs that were non-speed runs.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Yeah, I should have said that they are more prevalent because of speed iTrials. A lot of the players that were not doing speed runs got used to doing speed runs because of Lambda.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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I'm curious, was the difficulty set to +4?|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I know people have been doing speed TF's for as long as they can - but this was different.
In low level content someone might be able to stealth to the end of a mission, find a safe place and teleport the team, then attack the boss. But in this solo characters simply ignored the enemies they ran past and soloed a crystal while all of the surrounding enemies attacked them, ignored the enemies and ran to the next crystal. The enemies simply were not a challenge or a threat. At the end of the ITF to get the 300 kills they flew to the towers and used ion judgement to simply wipe out hundreds of foes (presumably multiple ion judgement, but I don't know). Wiping out 300 ITF took maybe 1 minute. There is a difference between doing at TF as fast as you can - which I am fine with - and the TF not presenting a challenge except how fast you can run or fly. |
If not, then it's just the fault of the leader for not presenting a challenge to the team. Although, most likely, they didn't want the challenge.
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I kinda miss regular ITF runs...speeds are all right, though every time I see one advertised, it's for speed -_- I like steam rolling mobs.
I blame the game mechanics. Honestly, speed runs have been around since before the iTrials, and the ITF even more so. It is used to get costume parts for characters, level characters quickly, get the Incarnate stuff quickly (especially when the WTF).
I honestly avoid "speed runs" as much as possible, but with the new incarnate powers, it has also dropped the difficulty of the ITF a bit. A regular slow run, with RP in it, and bio breaks etc, hasn't taken more than 2 hours, and usually is about 90 minutes at an even pace. The only choke points have been the ambush in the first mission (which isn't that bad of a choke point anymore either), and maybe lag hill, if it is acting up (I haven't had much issue with lag hill being lagtastic for a while).
Still I find this one of the more fun and repeatable TFs in the game, mostly because of the time frame to complete it. I can get on one during the week and still get a normal nights sleep for work the next day.
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@Shecky
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When you air your dirty laundry out on a clothesline above the street, everyone is allowed to snicker at the skid marks in your underoos. - Lemur_Lad
Speed runs are the natural evolution of any MMORPG with a rewards system.
I'm not a fan of speed runs. That being said, I do go on them now and then. Most of the time, the speed-run isn't very speedy, and is marked with a lot of confusion and chain deaths, and players behaving badly. IMO, not very fun. Perhaps these aren't "real" speed runs, but they do seem to be the norm for PUG-style speed runs. Often, they're not even recruited as speed runs, and most of the team only discovers that plan halfway into the first or second mission. I'm at the point where I have to directly ask after joining "is this a speed run, because if it is, I'll bow out and find another team."
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2 hours? jeesh man I lead tfs. as a leader I have a responsability to make sure everyone can see the end. I know RL always takes precedence so I do not dally and risk someone having to leave before the end and lose out on the reward they have put time towards earning with a group. I know a speedy ITF is about 20 min. Mine are a good paced run at 45 min that mixes kicking *** with speed, stealth, and RP( virtue forever) Really using RP as an excuse to waste time is why RPers get such hate, In a life and death save the timeline sitch like the ITF anything but speed is bad RP as no hero is not trying to get to the real problem immediatly. Take the snakes head and the body shall die and all that.|
Originally Posted by DJ_Shecky
I blame the game mechanics. Honestly, speed runs have been around since before the iTrials, and the ITF even more so. It is used to get costume parts for characters, level characters quickly, get the Incarnate stuff quickly (especially when the WTF).
I honestly avoid "speed runs" as much as possible, but with the new incarnate powers, it has also dropped the difficulty of the ITF a bit. A regular slow run, with RP in it, and bio breaks etc, hasn't taken more than 2 hours, and usually is about 90 minutes at an even pace. The only choke points have been the ambush in the first mission (which isn't that bad of a choke point anymore either), and maybe lag hill, if it is acting up (I haven't had much issue with lag hill being lagtastic for a while). Still I find this one of the more fun and repeatable TFs in the game, mostly because of the time frame to complete it. I can get on one during the week and still get a normal nights sleep for work the next day. |
2 hours though damn I dont know anyone who games anymore who can give that much straight time to play. must be a kiddy or have no kiddy of your own I guess.
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No kiddy of my own, and definitely not a kiddy myself. And I do know parents who can take 2 hours of time straight to play. all depends on how people want to do it.
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
2 hours? jeesh man I lead tfs. as a leader I have a responsability to make sure everyone can see the end. I know RL always takes precedence so I do not dally and risk someone having to leave before the end and lose out on the reward they have put time towards earning with a group. I know a speedy ITF is about 20 min. Mine are a good paced run at 45 min that mixes kicking *** with speed, stealth, and RP( virtue forever) Really using RP as an excuse to waste time is why RPers get such hate, In a life and death save the timeline sitch like the ITF anything but speed is bad RP as no hero is not trying to get to the real problem immediatly. Take the snakes head and the body shall die and all that.
2 hours though damn I dont know anyone who games anymore who can give that much straight time to play. must be a kiddy or have no kiddy of your own I guess. |
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When you air your dirty laundry out on a clothesline above the street, everyone is allowed to snicker at the skid marks in your underoos. - Lemur_Lad
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I run alot of TFs man. ALOT and no few ITFs in my day. I am going to say damn well done to that one my own personal best is 39 min and I cant claim to ever do true 100% speed runs, but under 20 well that is just impressive no 2 ways about it.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Whatever run gave you that idea was not a speed run.
This was a speed run.*  Even a radically overpowered kill-all is going to take a good 40 minutes. * This is the best time achieved by me or folks I know personally. It's not typical, even for us. 20-25 mins is more normal. |
Id be curious to hear party formation and tactics employed. For example on the shadow cysts did you each pick 1, or 2 as location allowed and did kill em all at once, or just one or two really good stealth killers.
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you do know one of COXs great strengths is that most things dont take hours to get done right? Most who favor multi hour raid sessions stick to games like WoW because frankly it does that stuff best.|
Originally Posted by DJ_Shecky
No kiddy of my own, and definitely not a kiddy myself. And I do know parents who can take 2 hours of time straight to play. all depends on how people want to do it.
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Give me my quick in and out momma ship raids, my under an hour every time TFs, and the right to stealth many a mish type. If I wanted to play kill it all and let the gawds sort it out I wouldnt be on a super hero game, id be on AOC and get boobs with my meaningless bloodshed.
Batman is alot bigger of an ideal I see players trying to be like now days then superman. Maybe its Statesmans Dbagness that has influenced paragons populace as they see the truth about him.
And batman does what? thats right sneak around...alot... and only engage those who actually matter in the current situation.
If you like to play hack and slash kill em all diablo style do so, just stop acting like its the WAI or only real way to play.
Frankly I love COX, its the MMO I always come back to since year one. But not it nor any game deserves or should be played for hours in a row. that just aint good game design in my book. and not the best way to use your RL time either imo. play for 45 then go spend 15 messing around in your yard with a pet, play with a sword, go shoot a bow, etc. You know move outside in the real world.
I love killing things with a virtual sword, but now and then I like going and cutting up milk jugs,pool noodles, and bamboo with a real one too.
On a speed team most members should be able to solo cysts, so you just fan out and attack the first cyst you see that is not currently engaged. Some debuffers aren't as good at soloing them so they perhaps pair up to take em down. Mission 2 should always be the shortest mission since it has no cutscene and no waiting on NPCs.
Friday night I was part of 4 speed ITF runs, ranging from 20 minutes to 35 minutes to complete.
Saturday I was part of an all-MM ITF where we pretty much killed everything on the map. Pets don't speed run.
Sunday evening I was on an xp/shard ITF that took 1 hour 25 minutes to pretty much destroy everything that moved. I know for certain that we completely cleared the first map. At the same time, my friends were doing speed runs that got below 17 and 16 minutes a run.
YMMV. It helps to know if it's a speed run or a kill most/xp/shard run beforehand.
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there is no fault there, if you +4 a tf without asking a team your in alot of trouble. likely to see the entire team drop right after stepping in.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'm curious, was the difficulty set to +4?
If not, then it's just the fault of the leader for not presenting a challenge to the team. Although, most likely, they didn't want the challenge. |
TFs are not about challenge never where. its just about forcing a group up, and to stick it out. RL always trumps this though and hence why getting tfs done in a timely matter is a way of life for real tf leaders like myself. I know anyone can be called away at anytime, if they have to leave I treat it equiv to them dieing in game. We have lost one of ours and lsot them because we failed in some way. Flash wouldnt be a hero if he wasnt the fastest man alive.
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I have to say the opposite. Most of the runs I'm seeing now are shard runs with very few short cuts. I think the one short cut everyone does is to pull the AVs down to the Console.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Yeah, I should have said that they are more prevalent because of speed iTrials. A lot of the players that were not doing speed runs got used to doing speed runs because of Lambda.
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Well, you are allowed you opinion an how long to take to play things, and what a game is meant to be. Just don't try to tell me what I think a game is and how to play it. |
Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
you do know one of COXs great strengths is that most things dont take hours to get done right? Most who favor multi hour raid sessions stick to games like WoW because frankly it does that stuff best.
Give me my quick in and out momma ship raids, my under an hour every time TFs, and the right to stealth many a mish type. If I wanted to play kill it all and let the gawds sort it out I wouldnt be on a super hero game, id be on AOC and get boobs with my meaningless bloodshed. Batman is alot bigger of an ideal I see players trying to be like now days then superman. Maybe its Statesmans Dbagness that has influenced paragons populace as they see the truth about him. And batman does what? thats right sneak around...alot... and only engage those who actually matter in the current situation. If you like to play hack and slash kill em all diablo style do so, just stop acting like its the WAI or only real way to play. Frankly I love COX, its the MMO I always come back to since year one. But not it nor any game deserves or should be played for hours in a row. that just aint good game design in my book. and not the best way to use your RL time either imo. play for 45 then go spend 15 messing around in your yard with a pet, play with a sword, go shoot a bow, etc. You know move outside in the real world. I love killing things with a virtual sword, but now and then I like going and cutting up milk jugs,pool noodles, and bamboo with a real one too. |
I spend time in game with community, friends from across the country, and even DJing on an internet station (see sig) at a time, and I enjoy it. To me CoH isn't just a game, but a social experience.
Defcon 0 - (D4 lvl 50),DJ Shecky Cape Radio
@Shecky
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When you air your dirty laundry out on a clothesline above the street, everyone is allowed to snicker at the skid marks in your underoos. - Lemur_Lad
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All MMO's are social experiences. People just like to pretend they aren't so they can make that ludicrous 'it's just a game' argument.
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Originally Posted by DJ_Shecky
Well, you are allowed you opinion an how long to take to play things, and what a game is meant to be. Just don't try to tell me what I think a game is and how to play it.
I spend time in game with community, friends from across the country, and even DJing on an internet station (see sig) at a time, and I enjoy it. To me CoH isn't just a game, but a social experience. |
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Very good point sir!
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Originally Posted by MrDead
All MMO's are social experiences. People just like to pretend they aren't so they can make that ludicrous 'it's just a game' argument.
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Defcon 0 - (D4 lvl 50),DJ Shecky Cape Radio
@Shecky
Twitter: @DJ_Shecky, @siliconshecky, @thecaperadio
When you air your dirty laundry out on a clothesline above the street, everyone is allowed to snicker at the skid marks in your underoos. - Lemur_Lad
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There's no set team composition. I think that run had two Dark Miasma Defenders or Corruptors (I don't recall which), and a bunch of Scrappers and Brutes. At least one person was a Scrapper in their 40s who was along for the XP. It was formed by someone who's working on the 50 WST assists badge.|
Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
Id be curious to hear party formation and tactics employed. For example on the shadow cysts did you each pick 1, or 2 as location allowed and did kill em all at once, or just one or two really good stealth killers.
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Our tactics are to (1st mish) head south, then north to free Sybils, then head directly to the altar to free Sister Solaris, (2nd mish) run from Cyst to Cyst, sometimes splitting up if we're able, (3rd mish) assassinate the generals in order from front to back, then pull the AVs onto the computer and AoE to taste and ability, (4th mish) clear the tower tops until about 120 traitors are left, then charge the AV, usually pulling the courtyard troops up to him. We don't usually target the Essences, though I like to do so personally, sometimes without telling anyone. >.>
Our teams for this have always been well-able to perform these antics. Before high-end IO builds were commonplace, we achieved it with heavy use of buffs. After IOs were more common (among us, at least, which was almost certainly ahead of the general populace), we needed less buffs. With Incarnates now we need less buffs and can mow things even faster, since people have level shifts, everyone can provide some limited (though potentially very strong) buffs, and everyone can have a pseudo-nuke.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Played with some more level 50 teams. The game is a joke at that level.
I guess I will just have to not play with incarnates so the game has some challenge.
I don't mind that the game has incarnates. Just like I don't mind the game having farms - if people want to pay the devs and support the game while avoiding a challenge that's their choice. I find it boring, but I assume they find how I play boring.