Characters who flourish without Hasten
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-01-05 05:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I can only speak for my Shield/EM Tank who doesn't need it.
My DB/WP build didn't have Hasten and didn't need it.
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There are only a couple situations that I can think of where Hasten is not as of much value.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not going to tell anyone they better take Hasten or they'll be gimp. I'm certainly mystified by the number of claims of builds that don't benefit meaningfully from it. I can only think of certain situations where this would be true.
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1) The powers in the sets recharge quickly anyway. Claws/SR and Claws/Elec are good examples here. That's not to say that there is no benefit it is just that the additional benefit may not enough to justify taking it for some play styles.
2) The animations are so long that even without hasten a power is always recharged and ready to go. Sonic blast is a good example of this and Assault Rifle and Archery were excellent examples prior to their animation upgrades.
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This is very true. I already posted my own example of a character who does well without it, but I also have no doubt he'd be even better with Hasten, if I magically gained an extra power choice. I just wanted it less than I wanted various other options.
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Originally Posted by eth_Nargy
I can't think of a single powerset combination that wouldn't benefit from hasten.
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I don't feel compelled to take it unless I _need_ it to keep some other click power(s) the character has available as often as possible.
However, I do have a habit of taking it on characters that have gotten along fine without it at level 49. Often I'm down to the last power pick and nothing else really stands out as a must have, so I slather some more recharge on with Hasten.
My Bots/Traps MM doesn't have it, but I've considered respecing for it a few times. He just doesn't _need_ anything else really. The bots and trap pets do all the work, and they do it well.
My Dark/Dark tank doesn't have it at 50.
My Inv/Axe tank doesn't have it at 50.
My DB/WP scrapper doesnt have it...he's got too many damn attacks and DB forces me to use ones I would normally dump to take advantage of the combo mechanic.
I think all my other high level characters do have it.
That thread actually led me to check what I had on my 50 toons to look at the proportion of Hasten usage.
- 10 have it perma (all are either dps or debuffs)
- 4 have it (1 stone tank and 3 toons with low rech click heals - Elec Armor and Fire Armor) but not perma. Most of the time it is because I chose not to build for recharge but for other things (HP/Regen)
- 9 don't: in those cases, for some it's due to end consumption (Kat/SR helloooooooo) and some because the attack chain (DB, stalkers, some tanks) or the buffs (FF) don't really require it
@Viper Kinji
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No build needs Hasten. Almost every build will benefit greatly from the addition of Hasten.
I would like to think this is not a difficult distinction to grasp.
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One character that does have it (and needs it) is my Emp/Psi. With such huge recharge timers on 3 main powers (2 auras and AB), and long timers on Fort and Rez (not so important), it's a real boon.
However, it annoys me to have multi-click problems on long timer powers, and I tend to try desperately to build without hasten so I can auto-click those powers.
To that end, I've achieved perma-dom on a Mind/Psi dominator, perma-dull pain on an Invuln/SJ tank, and perma Light Form on my PB. All without hasten. All so I can have those powers on auto. It costs a lot, and required a bit of juggling with iPowers, and not all get to keep it exemped, but that's a small price to pay (in my mind).
Exemping down is generally done for team activites, where that "super perma" build is less important. Things like SSAs... Well, I have so many characters that can do them at various levels, it's not important if a handful would struggle.
-H
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Seriously I might have three characters out of 40+ without it. Even with Global recharge from IO's blah blah blah I rarely have a build that does not benefit from it.
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Originally Posted by Black_Assassin
I build everything with hasten
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
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This is the combo that comes to my mind that gets absolutely no benefit from Hasten. I suppose the rez in WP would recharge faster, for whatever that's worth. As for DB, with 40% global recharge, I can chain the st-focused combo or the aoe oriented combo. Literally, there is no benefit for hasten whatsoever. Rather I'd say it would only have a negative affect with the end crash.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
My DB/WP build didn't have Hasten and didn't need it.
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It is rare I don't take Hasten though; I'm sure it's on 9 of 10 of my characters. All Doms, all trollers for sure take it. It's one pick that takes minimal slotting (2 slots and you can +++++ it for max effect). I ask myself "why wouldn't I take hasten" given that it's one pick/2 slots, rather than "why should I take hasten for this build?"
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While everyone benefits from Hasten, some powersets benefit more from it than others. WP for example needs no recharge at all.
Archetypes also come into consideration, as getting a maximum recharge attack chain isn't as good on a Tank as it is on a Scrapper.
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I had no plans prior to this thread for taking Hasten on my SS/EA brute who seems to quite happily wander from spawn to spawn beating things down. Maybe I should be trying to build on top of the minor Recharge boost from Entropic Aura, especially as I have no plan for him to take an Epic poolset and so have open slots.
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Thanks for the actual tally and commentary!|
Originally Posted by viper_kinji
That thread actually led me to check what I had on my 50 toons to look at the proportion of Hasten usage.
- 10 have it perma (all are either dps or debuffs) - 4 have it (1 stone tank and 3 toons with low rech click heals - Elec Armor and Fire Armor) but not perma. Most of the time it is because I chose not to build for recharge but for other things (HP/Regen) - 9 don't: in those cases, for some it's due to end consumption (Kat/SR helloooooooo) and some because the attack chain (DB, stalkers, some tanks) or the buffs (FF) don't really require it |
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Originally Posted by Silas
No build needs Hasten. Almost every build will benefit greatly from the addition of Hasten.
I would like to think this is not a difficult distinction to grasp. |
No hasten on...
My necro/dark mm
My SJ/SR Scrapper
My Arachnos Bane Soldier
and thats a few from teh top of my head. If I dont need it.. and it doesnt fit my toon to walk around with burning hands I simply dont take it. And I dont feel like I am missing out if I dont take it either.
Hasten is a good power... but really... you can do without!
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If your blue bar is going empty on your attack chain, hasten is the least of your worries mate.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
That's not true, on my NB/SR Stalker depending on what content it is that I'm doing(certain team situations) I've been in situations where going through my attack chain of Gamblers,Flashing,Soaring,Golden non stop has bottomed out my end. Hasten wouldn't add anything to my character since the 90%+ recharge I already have can cause me to bottom out my end.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Yeppers, but it appears to be for some reason. |
Originally Posted by Silas
No build needs Hasten. Almost every build will benefit greatly from the addition of Hasten.
I would like to think this is not a difficult distinction to grasp. nope.jpg |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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What I do is set up the binds to my attacks to switch out what power I have on auto. That way I can more than one power on auto...sorta, almost, in effect.|
Originally Posted by Seschat
...not being able to control-click any other power in your build.
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In practice, it sometimes results in me activating w/e power at the end of a battle because there was no gap for the auto power to go off. But that's kind of cool when it's the incarnate power that activates by raising my arms in the air while standing on a pile of bodies.
Hasten is a useful power.
However, I have far more characters without it than with it, and have even respec'd out of it before. (Maybe.... 6 50s with it, and... 12 to 14 without, off the top of my head.)
Not having it rarely stops a character from 'flourishing'...
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Don't worry, it didn't escape at least my notice. I only got on the bandwagon after some folks used your OP as a platform for (what I felt) was anti-Hasten propaganda. |
Originally Posted by MriBruce
I chose "flourish without" after some consideration, and a number of tries that didn't feel so clear to me. I'm not dumping on Hasten, just interested in what sorts of characters get less from it than many.
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Willpower, already mentioned, is kind of my poster child for a powerset that basically gains nothing from Hasten. There are only two click powers in it, and only one can actually benefit from recharge. Given that it's one of the least helpful self-rez powers out there, I'm not sure it gets taken a lot, and a power you don't have doesn't benefit much from +rech.
So if you're <anything>/Willpower, how much you can thrive without Hasten comes down almost entirely to how well the <anything> part does without it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
+rech seems to affect accolade powers and incarnate powers. So that's nice and useful.
I can vouch for Willpower/ Tanks.
My WP/TW tank finds little use for it. I've proc'd out my Titan Sweep, Arc of Descruction, and Whirling smash with cheap force feedback:Chance for +Recharge procs. Basically everytime I go into a momentum burst I get a chance to gain a maximum of 300% recharge for a short time.
On characters that aren't aiming for Perma. I find it as a useful "save me" power when my powers are so small that I can barely see them...this usually happens when I'm slammed with a slew of slow powers (*Arachnos*COUGH*) >:|
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Ok, good posit. I have several WP characters, so let's see...|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Willpower, already mentioned, is kind of my poster child for a powerset that basically gains nothing from Hasten. There are only two click powers in it, and only one can actually benefit from recharge. Given that it's one of the least helpful self-rez powers out there, I'm not sure it gets taken a lot, and a power you don't have doesn't benefit much from +rech.
So if you're <anything>/Willpower, how much you can thrive without Hasten comes down almost entirely to how well the <anything> part does without it. |
As previously mentioned, my DB/WP scrapper does not have or need Hasten. WP doesn't need it, DB doesn't need it.
My WP/SS 50 tank _does_ have it and need it, and took it very early, the power pick before Rage. He's a double (sometimes tripple) stacking Rage machine, who spams Footstomp every 6-7 seconds or so. I crammed every bit of regen I could manage on to him and Hasten is critical to the character.
My StJ/WP 50 brute does have it, but I took it at 44 or 47. The recharge helps keep crushing uppercut or spinning strike available as often as possible. He doesn't really "need" Hasten, it just helps his DPS.
My son's BS/WP 50 brute took it at 49, but doesn't really need it. My son calls Hasten "firehands" and since all of my most exciting characters have it, he thinks its crucial to having a badass "50". Cargo cult power picking, I guess.
I have a few low / mid level WP characters, and none of them have it yet, but they might get it later on if I ever level them up.
One thing to consider is that even though WP itself doesn't benefit from +Rech, the extra END it gives you supports spamming END expensive attacks at a higher rate than some other sets would be able to support. And also, WP pairs nicely with Spiritual Alpha. Factor in that, as many LotG 7.5%'s as can be slotted, and set bonuses, you're looking at a secondary that provides a stable base for a high recharge, big expensive attack spamming character. Hasten contributes significantly to that sort of character with a really big chunk of +Rech; so, while its true that WP is click anemic, it doesn't necessarily follow that WP characters don't benefit much from +rech. It depends on the attack set and the focus of the character.
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It affects accolades, but not Incarnate powers. Nothing makes iPowers recharge faster. Not even Spiritual Alpha.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
+rech seems to affect accolade powers and incarnate powers. So that's nice and useful.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Bearing in mind the clarification the OP has made about his careful wording, I do want to point out that "need" is relative to your goals. DB may not "need" Hasten, but DB can actually deal significant higher damage at very high levels of recharge than it can at more modest levels. This not just because its best single-target DPS attack chain requires very high +recharge, but also because more recharge means you get back Sweeping Strike faster, which is the set's best AoE damage by a country mile. (The best single-target DPS attack chain actually includes Sweeping Strike, which should say something about how good it is as an AoE attack.)|
Originally Posted by KillerShrike
As previously mentioned, my DB/WP scrapper does not have or need Hasten. WP doesn't need it, DB doesn't need it.
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Let me quickly concede that no one needs to make DB perform at those levels. However, what counts as "thriving" will definitely depend on the goals of who's answering that question, and someone who both plays DB and considers "thriving" to include doing as much damage as fast as possible/reasonable would probably want Hasten on a DBer. It's worth noting, though, that a reasonable runner up to the best DB attack chain can be run without Hasten if you have good +rech slotting in your attacks, plus around 60% global recharge (which is pretty close to the [non-perma] benefit of Hasten itself.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I only take Hasten on my Defenders for things like Accelerate Metabolism, Chrono Shift.
Even my Broadsword scrapper doesn't have any use for Hasten. Any extra damage inflicted by attacking a bit faster would be more than compensated by the tremendous amount of extra endurance that gets used, and that char starves for blue bar enough as it is.
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