Characters who flourish without Hasten
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-01-05 05:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Almost every build could benefit from Hasten if you could magically add it at no cost. I don't think its true that every build benefits enough from Hasten to justify replacing a power with it.|
Originally Posted by Silas
No build needs Hasten. Almost every build will benefit greatly from the addition of Hasten.
I would like to think this is not a difficult distinction to grasp. |
So here's my MA/SR build:
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I like my burning hands and feet thank you very much!
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Unless I am misunderstanding you, you have 3 power pools and an epic pool. Since you can have up to 4 power pools, plus one epic pool, you could indeed take Hasten by dropping one power.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Now, since I have Leaping, Fighting, Medicine, and Body Mastery, adding Hasten is not just a question of finding a single power and swapping: to add Hasten I would have to eliminate one of those pools entirely.
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...have I discovered the rare Arcanaville error, in the wild?
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True, but that's still a lot of power picks, even if it's only 2 from each, or even two from two pools and one from two pools.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Unless I am misunderstanding you, you have 3 power pools and an epic pool. Since you can have up to 4 power pools, plus one epic pool, you could indeed take Hasten by dropping one power.
...have I discovered the rare Arcanaville error, in the wild? |
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Yes, certainly true. I'm not arguing Hasten would necessarily improve the build at the expense of some other power, but it could be done without losing a pool.
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Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
True, but that's still a lot of power picks, even if it's only 2 from each, or even two from two pools and one from two pools.
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Actually, that's true, I could just drop a single power to take Hasten in that particular build. Take a bow: I goofed on that statement (and apparently still living in the past at times). |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Unless I am misunderstanding you, you have 3 power pools and an epic pool. Since you can have up to 4 power pools, plus one epic pool, you could indeed take Hasten by dropping one power.
...have I discovered the rare Arcanaville error, in the wild? |
On the other hand, so many powers are prereqs for the actual powers I need: trading Hasten for Super Jump (my travel), CJ, Aid Self, or Weave is problematic. Trading it for Boxing, Tough, or Aid Other is impossible without knocking out one of the previous powers (and basically the entire pool).
At best I could trade Hasten for LBE, which would knock out my one ranged attack (outside of veteran powers) or physical perfection. And this build is *very* carefully balanced around its endurance consumption when running at full power: trading Hasten for PP would likely drop me below the point where I could run at full power indefinitely between the loss of PP and the crash of Hasten itself. Those trades are still not obviously good trades.
I would be more than happy to trade Aid Other for Hasten, but that's not possible.
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Quote:
Here's what I do:|
Originally Posted by Xyzor
Why won't they just let is customize Pool Powers already!?! The biggest objection to a power that most people find extremely useful (if not crucial for some builds, like Regen), is that they don't like the animation. That should be an easily-fixed problem.
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/macro FX-1 "suppressclosefx 1$$suppressclosefxdist 255"
and
/macro FX-0 "suppressclosefx 0"
This creates two buttons in your power trays. Clicking the first one makes visual effects generated by some powers invisible. (Ok, technically just invisible if the in-game camera is closer than 255 feet to your character. I don't remember what the draw distance is for your own character, but it seems to be much less than 255 feet.)
Hasten will be invisible, as will Superspeed. Stealth will still make you semi-transparent though. Fire Shield, Plasma Shield and Blazing Aura will be invisible but Burn, Consume and Fiery Embrace will be visible.
And, of course, clicking the second one undoes the first one.
This option isn't quite as good as Pool Power Customization would be, but it's as good as we'll get til then.
"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
I only have hasten on one toon (human build Kheld) largely because I never take it unless I feel the toon actually needs it. As I make my toons, they rarely ever "need it".
I can definitely see the advantages to hasten, especially if you are running on an SO build. There, hasten can flourish and give players a much needed speed increase.
But, for builds with IOs that come with prepacked recharge increases, hasten loses a bit of it's luster. On... well... pretty much every toon of mine except my Kheld, I already have a consistent attack chain with no noticeable delays between attacks. Adding Hasten wouldn't improve them at all. And I'm a fairly sloppy IO user; I basically just use them for their ability to enhance every power as well as get global accuracy, recovery, and max health boosts.
Even when IO, benefits for those really strong powers that you want to use on every mob, but have recharges so long that you can't bring it down adequately enough just by six slotting it. Or on doms for quicker domination bars.
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Hasten also serves as effective -Recharge resistance.
Yes, you can skip it and be effective.
No, most of the time skipping it wouldn't put you at your most effective. Melees can probably get away with it easiest but even they have powers like Build Up or just plain AoEs. You also can't get +Recharge from an inspiration, but you can get most other buffs.
Anyway last time the Hasten graphic was brought up I believe the statement from a developer was that they didn't want to change the graphic due to PVP reasons. I'm actually not sure whether that was intended to be a joke or not, but it's what I thought was said.
The best non hasten set i can think of is a claws/wp scrapper. Hasten wouldn't be useless but not that needed either.
Hasten is gud.
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Although i dont see Hasten as universally needed as it once was, thanks largely to IO sets, still it has a place in many builds, and concepts.
However I do have characterts without it, typically they are toggle heavy and lack any paticularly special move on a lengthy recharge. An example might be my old MA/Shield scrapper who between his large amount of attacks and mainly being toggle in power use, extra recharge especially at the cost of glowy hands that dont fit his concept, was all part of choosing to not use hasten on him.
However my BS/Regen scrapper i focus very heavily on recharge both in IO sets and using hasten to compliment the large amount of click based powers in my defense set, and make my best attacks and parry that much more available to me as needed.
Its really as simple as that for what should help you decide. Clicks or toggles. which do you use more? if answer is clicks then hasten + all other recharge bonuses you can fit in is really the ONLY viable option to make the investment of IOs really worthwhile.
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Tell that to my AV soloing Inv/SS.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Archetypes also come into consideration, as getting a maximum recharge attack chain isn't as good on a Tank as it is on a Scrapper. |
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OK.|
Originally Posted by Hatred666
Tell that to my AV soloing Inv/SS.
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Hey, Mr. Inv/SS tanker, you've clearly benefitted a lot from recharge. I mean, you can solo AVs, that's pretty darn good! We're just saying the same high-recharge attack chain would do even more damage with a brute, or hypothetically a scrapper if they ever get Super Strength.
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BF -> AV is really close to as good as BF -> AS -> SS for aoe damage and slightly worse for single target and requires vastly less recharge. If you're pairing DB with invulnerability or willpower, you just don't need hasten unless you absolutely must have every single smidgen of damage possible. I would call "a little bit behind the absolute best chain" well within the realm of thriving.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Bearing in mind the clarification the OP has made about his careful wording, I do want to point out that "need" is relative to your goals. DB may not "need" Hasten, but DB can actually deal significant higher damage at very high levels of recharge than it can at more modest levels. This not just because its best single-target DPS attack chain requires very high +recharge, but also because more recharge means you get back Sweeping Strike faster, which is the set's best AoE damage by a country mile. (The best single-target DPS attack chain actually includes Sweeping Strike, which should say something about how good it is as an AoE attack.)
Let me quickly concede that no one needs to make DB perform at those levels. However, what counts as "thriving" will definitely depend on the goals of who's answering that question, and someone who both plays DB and considers "thriving" to include doing as much damage as fast as possible/reasonable would probably want Hasten on a DBer. It's worth noting, though, that a reasonable runner up to the best DB attack chain can be run without Hasten if you have good +rech slotting in your attacks, plus around 60% global recharge (which is pretty close to the [non-perma] benefit of Hasten itself.) |
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No. They don't stack with themselves, and when the proc fires it won't fire again for 10secs so its really a waste having it in anything other than WS.
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Originally Posted by Bionut911
I can vouch for Willpower/ Tanks.
My WP/TW tank finds little use for it. I've proc'd out my Titan Sweep, Arc of Descruction, and Whirling smash with cheap force feedback:Chance for +Recharge procs. Basically everytime I go into a momentum burst I get a chance to gain a maximum of 300% recharge for a short time. |
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They changed the FF: +recharge proc, fyi. It still won't stack, but it will refresh itself, as far as I know.
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Hm. Flourish without Hasten you say.
I have a bit of a spectrum. On my Claws/SR scrapper I went on a mad quest for Followup/Focus/Slash and that pretty much means "Hasten or bust".
On my Archery/EM I got enough recharge to run Snap/Blazing/Snap/Aimed and I'm happy; Hasten would make BU, Aim and Rain come up a bit faster but toon works just fine.
And then there's my new best thing, my decently monstrous natural-themed StJ/SR scrapper. She has a near-smooth attack chain without Hasten but Uppercut and Spinning are a bit slow as is the BU^H^HCR-Spring Attack combo. With her, it's more like "I must now smash every face in the room so I can free Penny Yin from these Rikti. BURNING FIST TECHNIQUE!"
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Willpower or SR paired with anything but Electric Melee or Super Strength. |
Originally Posted by eth_Nargy
I can't think of a single powerset combination that wouldn't benefit from hasten.
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Once you acquire enough global recharge to run the chain you want Hasten is literally useless to those characters. The only time Hasten would even be useful for them is if you cannot achieve your desired attack chain without it.
Willpower only has 2 click powers, one of them is unaffected by recharge, and the other is the most universally skipped power in the set.
SR gives you Quickness to aid in getting a good attack chain, and once you're soft-capped Elude is redundant. Its only other click power is Practiced Brawler, and if you can't perma that without Hasten you have bigger problems with your build.
I only have a couple characters that have Hasten: My Claws/Regen scrapper and my Rad/Sonic defender. I have a lowbie Regen brute that will bet getting it, and my Fire/Kin controller might get it at some point if I don't see anything else I want at a later level.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Black_Assassin
No. They don't stack with themselves, and when the proc fires it won't fire again for 10secs so its really a waste having it in anything other than WS.
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Originally Posted by Combat
They changed the FF: +recharge proc, fyi. It still won't stack, but it will refresh itself, as far as I know.
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It has always worked like this: when the proc fires, it grants you a passive power for 5 seconds that buffs your recharge. While you have this power, you cannot get another one, so a second trigger does nothing. When it expires, you are free to get the power again. There is no stacking. There is no refreshing. There is no suppression.
If its not working exactly like this today, it was stealth changed in a patch that I didn't notice, very recently.
There have been very persistent myths about this proc that it either works differently or did work differently in the past. However, I believe that is due to the simple fact that this proc was and is difficult to test accurately given its mechanics. The proc has never behaved in any other way than I describe above at any time on live that I've tested it.
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Also, I believe I have Hasten on autofire on my Energy Blaster. It hasn't always been on autofire. Sometimes I have Power Boost on autofire, and there was that weird period in 2006 when I had Nova on autofire.
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I went through all of my builds and only with Willpower combined with Dual Blades did Hasten come up as more of a fashion statement if anything. Ofcourse raised DPS is always good but if you get enough for Blinding Feint Attack Vitals then ya can be kind of "that'll do" really and focus on other aspects of the build.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I don't think I understand the restriction of that to just those two attack sets. There are a lot of other attack sets whose best damage potential can't be achieved without Hasten, Hasten-level global recharge bonuses, or both.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Willpower or SR paired with anything but Electric Melee or Super Strength.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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My experience is that "a little bit behind" is a noticeable understatement. It's a big enough difference that I notice the change in time to defeat things if I switch to AS-AF for the extra knockdown mitigation. And that's single-target damage - I consider it dramatically behind on AoE damage because it does not fire Sweeping Strike as often as possible, and relies on hitting all attacks in the chain to ensure you get the AV bonus damage, making its average AoE DPS lower than the usual theoretical 95% of ideal.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I would call "a little bit behind the absolute best chain" well within the realm of thriving.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Hasten is, in my opinion, overrated.
This isn't to say it's a bad power. It's a good power, very good even. However I myself never bothered with it unless I wanted Super Speed, and now I don't need to bother with it at all.
It IS, however, a great power that works very well one slotted with a recharge. It's less useful on melee toons, but ti still gets the big attacks or useful abilities back up faster. It's much better on Dominators and Controllers that have longer recharge controls.
Over all my advice is don't bother if you have another power you need, but if you have a power pick open then grab it. Even if you only use it as a form of panic button or before a big AV/GM fight it can help.
Just mind the end crash.