Our humans are ugly

Ugly bags of mostly water...

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Originally Posted by herotoonefan I have to say, as an old-time comics fan, I love the fact that the heroes and villains look so much like good silver-aged comic book art rather than bulgy plastic puff-stickers, cell-shaded TV cartoons, or anime. If I go back and look at my 80's and 90's comics, this game looks tons more like them than any other similar themed game out there. I guess people these days are thinking of the game more like a superhero movie than a comic book, but I like the authentic comic book look and feel. I would be sad if the game started looking like an Xbox game (like some superhero movies lately have looked) or started to play like a first-person shooter--which seems to be what people who are less from a classic comic book angle and more from a "gamer" background seem to want. But, I also know that ultimately people will vote with their dollars, and that will win out. I have two VIP accounts--one that is years old--so I get two votes :P! ...

I share similar tastes and feelings as herotoonefan and was going to mention roughly the same stuff.
Not that I'm against some improvements, mind you, but I really don't find myself having an negative issue with how the character models look.

The thing that does really bug me about the characters is the SEAMS... especially the skin textures and the neck!
So, I could certainly see fixing up the skin textures some, although "fixing" can become such a subjective thing it can be scary.
The feet and hands, funny enough, never really bother me.
The hair doesn't bug me either.

Sure, I love greater modern graphics (although, not what I've seen in other mmorpgs, that's for sure), but I have zero negative issues with the looks of this game's characters.
Yes, it is an older game, but I think the style really does a great job of bending with the time.

To each their own, of course, but I thought I'd make my own opinions known along with the rest of the feedback.

Ugly bags of mostly water!

A couple of points I want to address.

Firstly, the necks. I get the impression that no-one really likes those, and there's a reason they're towards the top of my list, even with my biasses. I feel that there is a lot that could and should be done to make our heads feel less like they don't belong on our bodies, and fixing the neck seam would be my choice for a starting point. Tweaking face skin textures so they actually match the upper body texture without a significant colour difference would be the direct follow-up.

Secondly, on the subject of "cartoony graphics," I'm not sure I agree entirely. Don't get me wrong, I'm not shooting for photorealism here. I'm not even that interested in making actual humans - aliens, mutants, demons and so forth are more my style. I certainly don't want to just rip off the Unreal 3 engine and overexpose the game to a ton of shaders. That would be counter-productive.

I like (love, actually) stylised designs that aren't overflowing with "fidelity," but there are ways to achieve stylised looks without relying on blocky models, low-resolution textures and awkward physique. I feel that games like Advent Rising, Saints Row (yes, seriously) and others have done a fairly good job of balancing detail to stylised design, and I trust our art team is good enough to pull that off here, as well.

Finally, I feel it's high time "tights with skin" were revamped as a whole category, to give us control over our skin textures. The way I envision it, it would work a lot like Tights, only we'd get a selection between about two or three different skin textures with only patterns available for them, followed by all the "whole body texture" tops and bottoms like Angelic/Bridal/Excess/Hearts Plus, Metal, Leather, Witch and so forth. Like basic tights, the basic skin textures would support all the patterns our one skin texture supports right now, with no "none" option available, obviously. That's for both women AND men, so that men can have tights with skin tops and bottoms, too. And if we're worried that patterns over the male chest will be a problem because men have nipples (and it is), then men can be given a top with and without nipples, where the nipple-less top pattern options will simply not include anything too "revealing.

The reason I talk about the above is because I wouldn't imagine replacing the existing models, just for the simple fact that people have grown attached to them. That's why we need the ability to customize our own bodies, not just what we put on them - so that if and when we get better-looking bodies, they come as an addition, rather than a replacement.

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At the end of the day, though, my general point is that the cool new costume pieces using the latest technology the game has to offer don't have to be just clothes and armour. New body parts and, hell, entire new human bodies could and should be among the new stuff we get. The art team of today can do better than the art team of 2001.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I just have to say that, personally, this all falls into the category of stuff I don't care about and wouldn't notice if they changed.

I dunno, I think that in a superhero game there's a certain charm to having characters that look plastic and doll-like.

For the neck problem...there's a reason why 99% of the costumes I make have the spiked collar on them.

But generally, I've prefered the look of CoH's chaarcters over the competitions! Our characters look like they should be a comic book.

You hear the complaints "Oh they look dated" "Oh look at the shiney awesomeness of this new competition" and yet, look how the competition is failing. Maybe if they're artwork looked like a comicbook, it'd suck less

I don't mind the way we look overall. Yep, the neck seam bugs me, and uggg, the feet! Another irksome thing is the white skin. It has odd, tan shading, which looks awful. Now, my white colored characters are trying to look awful. They're usually dead. Possibly undead. But it's another kind of awful altogether. Looks like a white-skinned creature used bronzer up and down her arms and legs. Now, I can get by with the body by using "tights" white, and using one of the painted-on prints, to look like my toon is wearing, say, a belly shirt, but sans the peculiar bronzer-on-the-stomach look. But I can't do that for the face! And the face just looks bad. the way the pale skinned males look, with muscles painted on with more bronzer, that looks horrible too. There must be a better way to do that.

I like the way we look, overall. I would not (NOT!!) want to look like something from someone else's game. I want us to look like US. That said, if we could look like we do, but with more texture, less "flatness" (and far less bronzer) - that would be something I'd love to see!

So listed above, these are the things that annoy me. Samuel, if this is an issue you feel has enough support to warrant a potential change, why don't you ask a red name if this is even feasible? No point in getting hopes up for something that just cannot realistically happen.

Second, I am guessing that the art department is more interested in (and believes WE are more interested in) costumes. In particular, costumes we would pay for. What if this were put up as something purchasable? Would we be willing to PAY for upgraded bodies? Is there a market for this?


(To answer my own question, yep, if it was a good job, I'd definitely be interested, if they cannot undertake a job that size without charging us for it.)

On a tangentially related note, I'd like to ad that I like how heroic the game mechanics and play style feels for a game where I'm pretending to be a comic book superhero. Graphically or game wise I wouldn't want just a modern first person shooter or Xbox game that happens to have tights and capes.

What I mean is, I've noticed some (usually new free account) people complaining about the "clunky" play style, especially the rooting effects. I LOVE it when my hero plants his or her feet and unleashes a powerful blast or blow, as opposed to jogging in circles and cricket-hopping and or running and shooting or punching back over their shoulder.

I really believe that the key to this game is theme, feel, and story (and I don't think that is just my wild idea, it's pretty much the intent and reality of the game). While there will always be PVPers and gamers (and I'm glad they're here and they have a place and every right) it'll never be a bleeding edge, extreme PVP system and I wouldn't want a white-knuckle twitch-action style. I love the fact that I can play and also watch how frikkin cool the Superaction is!

Maybe this should have been a separate thread, but I didn't think it was a topic worth starting a whole new one .

Body as it is is OK... (More polygons wouldnt hurt either...)
But we need a new, updated texture for naked body. Better musculature, different kind of layers of musculature definition, better bare hands and foot.
Detailed female chest like the witch top or barbarian bikini.
We need a new basic body texture that could work for skin and tights and all the patterns.

I was going to say the look of the humans does not bother me at all, but two things are annoying: the neck line, and the tinted skin which does not match anything else.

I just bought the mutant pack and wanted to use bioluminsence - which is based on skin. So if I use that on my legs I cannot get the organic armor boots to match except by using black - and even that doesn't totally match.

The neckline isn't much of an issue, because I look at the game with the camera back aways and don't see that much detail.

Having played other games, I'll stick with CoH designs just fine. No silly putty bodies or Uncanny Valley here.

And I still have yet to find a male hair choice anywhere that beats Barbaric or Long. (Yes, I am balding, shut up. :P )

Haven't read the whole thread, but...

I'm a bit irked at all the 'game engine's ten years old, where's CoH2, it's like playing Manic Miner!' moaning.

The older faces etc could do with sprucing up, sure, but I've got no complaints about what the game looks like for the most part. It's awesome - I can fly and shoot energy blasts and punch supervillains off buildings.

And one of my heroes has a brain in a jar for a head!

I hope the game's still around for threads complaining about the 20-year old engine

Eco

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

I keep meaning to talk about this, and it keeps slipping my mind:

TATTOOS!

Of all the things we can do to our characters' bodies - cybernetics, monster parts, armour and so forth - the one thing our game supports very little of is actual tattoos. Yes, we have a few Tights patterns that kind of work like tattoos, but those are both very few, all too symmetrical and they don't actually look all THAT much like tattoos, all told. Run a Google search for "tattoo" if you need proof. The one actual tattoo option we do have is the Yakuza full-body art that covers the entire torso and arms (but there's nothing for the legs) and women don't even get that. They get discontinuous hand tattoos from the Yakuza set that don't have anything to connect to. And even them full-body tattoos are a bit extreme for most cases.

One of the big problems is that we have a hard time putting patterns on skin, especially for women since they have no option for skin without "clothes-like" patterns for it. Another big problem is that most of our patterns are very big and also very symmetrical. If I wanted, say, a line of flaming skulls tattooed down my right arm but not my left, I can't have that. If I wanted a crouching tiger on my left shoulder and upper back, I can't have that, either. And I can't have either of those unless I "cheat" and make a "naked" torso girl with a some form of sleeveless jacket so I'm still technically wearing clothes but I can "paint" on the torso without worrying about Tights With Skin options.

I'm really kicking myself for not having thought to bring this up earlier, considering this is pretty much the whole reason that made me want to post about this in the first place. You might think that tattoos wouldn't be all that popular among players, but I'd actually argue that the primary reason for this feeling isn't their popularity, but the simple fact that we CAN'T have decent tattoos which could be popular. I've experimented with Tribal and it... Kind of works but then it kind of doesn't and it it doesn't even work all that well when it does work and so on, but the options are VERY limited.

When I talk about more improved bodies, I do mean better textures and 3D details, yes, but I also mean the ability to do more to our bodies than we can now. There may not appear that there's all that much we could do with our bodies outside of dressing them up in clothes, but there are quite a few things we can do that don't involve covering up.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

The brownish pre-tinting of the skin texture has always bugged the snot out of me too. I make almost exclusively non human characters, and most of them have greyish skin. It looks incredibly silly to have grey skin with brown pre-tinting, likewise the other even more exotic shades. Needless to say, I use tights for any exposed skin south of the neck where possible, matching as close as I can, which isn't perfect. On my non-human characters, I can't use the "with skin" costume options much, because the brown pre-tinting is even more glaringly obvious on the rest of the body. And since we have some cool "with skin" options (such as barbarian women's top and bottom), that's kind of frustrating.
Please, please PLEASE ditch the brown pre-tinting on skin textures!

you can have a tattoo on one arm by having one arm be bionic so it is different than the other one. Limits your options for one arm, but it isn't too bad.

What did everyone think of the side-by-side screencaps of MMO Grinder's two characters, the one from WoW and the one from CoX intended to be a recreation of the WoW character (seen at the 6:25 mark of his video review)?



The difference in texture/model detail is pretty noticeable, don't you think? Am I to believe that the detail exhibited by the WoW version would somehow feel out of place in CoX? I'm not sure I would agree, and I say that as someone who loves everything that makes (or can make) a superhero MMO look and feel like its source material. But maintaining low model or texture detail doesn't strike me as a laudible means to that end. As Sam said, it's not photorealism that's the goal, but surely the same kind of graphical improvements seen in more recent costume pieces could be applied, to good results, to the rest of the core model bits. The argument that hands and feet which look like bricks better embody the comic book aesthetic just doesn't ring true for me.