A Petless MM, Suggestions?

So recently I've been tossing around the idea of a demon/______ pet-less MM, but I haven't the slightest idea what secondary would work well enough to make this bat SH*T Crazy idea even worthwhile.

Any suggestions?

I have a DS Traps. Mine is what I guess some would call Semi Petless MM. I took the last pet and the last upgrade. I had a theme but didn't like it. I went from a female toon and paid to gender and name change to male.

What I can tell you is endurance is going to be your BIGGEST issue. Don't be surprised if by mid 20s your 5 or even 6 slotted in endurance on top of having possibly endurance redux IOs in your powers as well.

Leveling wise depending on how you go it will be slow. It took me about a year on and off of soloing and teaming sometimes and making a move to get to 50 on double xp weekend a while back.

The 2nd biggest issue you might have is teaming. What I did is made it clear in the LFG comments about my build. I really only had one person complain for the limited teaming I did and I left immediately with no complaints. It seems they did the mission and then I got re-invited. The player with the issue quit before he was kicked as I was told. Only at level 47 when I was IOed did I know I could handle Crey Fire farm on 2/8 setting so I made that known in my LFG comments. But I NEVER actively asked for any invites.

If you run like I did semi petless here is an issue I noticed. Going Bodyguard mode was killing my pet super fast. Only after either going aggressive with him or having him attack my targets did he survive much longer. But over all DO NOT expect your pet to be some fighting machine for you as he might last but not that long. Its more of a look thing if anything.

Getting Incarnates how I did it.

I knew I needed Cardiac to make this build even semi-viable. So I did the math and sent over a bunch of threads via the mail system and unlocked the Alpha incarnate for this toon. I got him to T3 Cardiac. It really turned the toon around. The issue now was I wanted MORE...

I knew getting an incarnate team as even a semi petless mastermind was going to be bad. I knew one, many players really do not understand the game mechanics so they wouldn't believe that I could solo 2/8 setting. Two trying to discuss this during a BAF or SLAM / LAM was not going to be good idea. Three it would get me kicked and probably get me globally one starred which is not what I wanted to do. Believe it or not in game I have a good rep and people get to know me as the solo guy with a bunch of 50s toons. The last thing I wanted to do is piss people off even if they were ignorant to the math and game mechanics.

So what I did was create a full SO build with all the pets and I slotted a few IO Procs here and there. EG Lockdown Proc in Poison traps. So now I LOOK like every other mastermind but I suck compared to my IO build. But I never got any complaints. As of today I am T4 Cardiac. T4 Rebirth. T3 Reactive and T4 in Lore. With lore I didn't want to have large pets as I felt I already defeated the purpose of the Petless MM build. So I went with the small Drones. I now find that my pet survives much more and having Rebirth for the heal is very helpful. Going back to the Lore pet I would depending on your build I would recommend a flying type pet compared to a land pet because they can follow you much easier.

As far as PPP goes I went with Soul Mastery. I've said this in the past and I will restate it here. Oppressive Gloom is just too good to pass up. Let me say I wanted to try something else and went with MU Mastery but didn't like it so I respeced out. Oppressive Gloom really, really helps keeping you alive. I know being defense capped you would think what would be the issue with staying alive, but knowing that once minions come near me or me near them if I decide I need to charge into a group I only am limited to dealing with the bosses. Further though now I can pretty much place Trip mines at will because of my defenses, O.G. cuts down the interrupts even more.

Now of course with the incarnates I can do 4/8 settings.

If you could work a build without the pet and get close to cap I guess you could go Indiana Jones style whip & tech toon.

Or D.S. / Dark ( hit debuff from dark would help your defense issue ) maybe just the Tier 2 pets or none and go with fire mastery.

Hope this helps you out

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Corruption -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15)
Level 1: Web Grenade -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(37), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(45), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(45), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(45)
Level 2: Lash -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(15), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Mako-Dam%(40)
Level 4: Caltrops -- TmpRdns-Acc/Slow(A)
Level 6: Triage Beacon -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(7), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(21), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 8: Crack Whip -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(9), Posi-Dmg/Rng(46), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 10: Acid Mortar -- ShldBrk-DefDeb(A), ShldBrk-Acc/DefDeb(25), ShldBrk-Acc/Rchg(31), ShldBrk-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(31), ShldBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(33), ShldBrk-%Dam(33)
Level 12: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB(48)
Level 16: Force Field Generator -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(17), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(17)
Level 18: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(19), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(19)
Level 20: Poison Trap -- Lock-%Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Hold(42), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(42), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(42), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(43)
Level 22: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(23), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(23)
Level 24: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(33), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(34), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(34), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(34), GSFC-Build%(36)
Level 26: Summon Demon Prince -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(27), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(27), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), BldM'dt-Acc(29), BldM'dt-Dmg(31)
Level 28: Seeker Drones -- RzDz-Acc/Rchg(A), RzDz-EndRdx/Stun(39), RzDz-Acc/EndRdx(39), RzDz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(39), RzDz-Stun/Rng(40), RzDz-Immob%(40)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 32: Abyssal Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Trip Mine -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(36), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Oblit-%Dam(46)
Level 38: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(43), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(43)
Level 41: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 44: Dark Embrace -- Aegis-Psi/Status(A)
Level 47: Oppressive Gloom -- RzDz-EndRdx/Stun(A), RzDz-Immob%(48)
Level 49: Soul Tentacles -- GravAnch-Hold%(A), GravAnch-Immob/Rchg(50)
Level 50: Reactive Total Radial Conversion
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(13)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(11), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(11), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(13), P'Shift-End%(48)
Level 4: Ninja Run

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While I (and many others) certainly encourage people to do whatever they want...

The idea of a pet-less Mastermind may be fun. But, in this case, I would strongly encourage you to re-think this concept for a very important reason...

Namely, Masterminds are completely designed around having the henchmen (not pets because pets can't be controlled). Without those henchmen, you are disrupting the lynchpin of what a Mastermind can do.

Without your henchmen, you can still do some good stuff. But, without them you...

1. Lose the protection of Bodyguard. Masterminds have the lowest base health in the game. Bodyguard compensates for this in ways people who don't play masterminds cannot fathom. Bodyguard is the sole reason a Mastermind can wade right into most mobs without fear of being 1-shotted like other squishier classes would be.

2. Lose out on your best damage. Yes, Masterminds do get 3 attacks. But, your damage numbers are pitiful compared with everyone else. Your henchmen hold all of the DPS that makes it possible to steamroll through threats that others can't either because they are too squishy or lack sufficient damage.

3. Become a weaker defender. Yes, your secondaries are good. But, again, without the benefit of your henchmen, you lose out on what Masterminds contribute to teams.

So, yes! Certainly try out whatever your concept is. This game is great at letting people have a lot of flexibility without much in the way of negative results. But, do keep in mind the design of Masterminds. You may find that the concept is far less effective than you think.

Wasn't thinking but after looking at Mids, time would help you as well.

Here is the deal why I simply think you need to obtain defense cap. Your not going to wow them with damage. Consider yourself the Tortoise in the race. Slow and steady. This why I picked Traps, Time bomb though slow compared to other powers really does pack a nice punch when it goes off. I am guaranteed to kill a few mobs with every explosion and if it gets too busy or crazy I can just huddle down pop a few inspirations to cap out my defenses and resistances a bit more and slowly clear out mobs. I use this tactic when the pet runs off or I just get too much aggro. Pet drops off fast and it becomes too hard to drop down another FFG because they keep aggroing on the FFG.

Thematically just messing around real quick DS Dark with the Tier 2 pets might be cool. Sort of like a badass CoT.

/Dark would provide a good amount of healing, mitigation, debuffing, and some buffs. Would likely be my choice for such an undertaking due to the versatility.

The master's personal damage is about the same as those 3 minions. You can drop those 3 minions and only babysit two lieuts and one boss pet.

I've done this before with Necro/Storm but that's before they took away Pet -recharge.

Or you can take Minion and don't slot and don't babysit them. Just set them on bodyguard all the time. Whip is pretty melee-style. You would need bodyguard from minions and put the other pets on aggressive.

Thanks for all of the help guys! I think in the end, I'm going to be going with Dark. Just because Themactically it fits, and it has a lot of good mitigation to go with it.

I'm not looking to solo +4/x8 or even +0/x4. I'm just working on something simple and fun for soloing, but not earth-shattering seeing that i have two other mains that can handle that stuff NP

Either Demon/Dark or Demon/Time if you're going to be going without Demons. For a totally wacky option, you might try Demon/Storm (or Robot/Storm or Ninja/Storm or Merc/Storm if you want a purely ranged Petless MM).

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

What Plain said here...

"What I can tell you is endurance is going to be your BIGGEST issue. Don't be surprised if by mid 20s your 5 or even 6 slotted in endurance on top of having possibly endurance redux IOs in your powers as well."

I tried out a petless Demons/Dark MM awhile back figuring a "whip Corruptor" would be a cool concept but the end consumption was rough. I got into the early 20s and finally lost interest.

Hope it works out for you.

A Master mind with out a pet is a gimpy Player, I won't and many other will team up with you, MM with pets have a better time staying alive then one without them. You are just going to end up dragging you team down.

Veteran powers. Seriously. Sands of Mu or Ghost Slaying axe and Blackwand or the Nemesis staff. Otherwise it'll take you forever to kill anything.

Meh, not my cup of tea, but if you're having fun, who cares?

Two points I did want to bring up:

To the folks who want to claim that a petless MM can be as good or better than <insert some random AT here>... No. All things being equal (slotting, enhancements, incarnate abilities, whatever), any AT (not just a Mastermind) that skips 2/3 of their Primary is going to be less capable than a similar build that didn't.

To the folks that claim they won't team with such a character... Are you that incapable on your own? If I routinely solo all or most of my level 20+ toons at a relaxed +1/x3 or more, adding a petless MM (or any other "Primary-challenged" build) to my team changes exactly nothing.

I would suggest that while a petless MM can be fun to play, I would not recommending using such a build on incarnate trials. :3 Especially on something like BAF, haha. On TPN and MoM, you could actually get away with it at some points due to some stages only requiring single target controlled damage (like the cameras or the eyes next to Penny Mayhem).

I had this crazy petless MM idea too, even opened a thread to ask other players experience and someone told me this would be like: playing a scrapper only using the ranged attacks from APP/PPP.
I lost interest when I though about it.

I've played Petless MM's before, and recently I've been thinking of trying another.

To me, it's not about mechanics. Mechanically, while there's some tricks to mitigate the problems, skipping the pet powers greatly reduces the combat power of the AT. Instead, it's about style and challenge.

Challenge-wise, it makes City of Heroes a hard game to succeed at. But it can be done. Using the best enhancements and frankenslotting IOs, adding uniques and procs, choosing power pool attacks and vet powers -- these all add up to that mitigation. You become a master of utility powers and these themselves are weak and demand creativity in their application. It demonstrates real skill at playing to succeed and thrive with a petless build.

Style-wise, it used to be one couldn't get pistols or a sci-fi rifle without a MM powerset; now, those are common, but you still can't fight with a whip without being an MM. There's a wide draw to this style and the character concepts it supports.

However, you will run into people who just can't understand why anyone would play for a non-mechanical-power reason, and who'll hold it against you. If this happens too much, and you still want the experience, there's the alternate build -- level up a basic pet-based MM build in there, and offer to switch if the team demands it. Or just leave that team.

This is somewhat off topic -- but you know that part of Lambda where you split up? I really don't have too much trouble with that part as an MM because I just go petless, and I keep that in mind that I may be caught off-guard or have extremely bad luck and my pets go die at once or in rapid succession.

So.. I always build my MM's to be able to take care of themselves for a short while without the usage of their pets. It comes up. My two main toons are MMs who can actually give a pretty decent fight without their pets. My bots/traps MM can actually tank even without his pets because both his +DEF and +RES are so high. Necro/Dark can because of his excellent heal and his -ToHit and reasonable +DEF. Both have about 1000 hp, which isn't a lot of room for error but its enough to swing it if needed. That means personal attacks, btw, and taunt just isn't as effective without them.

I personally wouldn't *willingly* play a petless MM, but I like the flexibility of being able to do so, especially on a build with no focus on +recharge.

The OP asked for suggestions on a secondary for a petless MM that would make the concept worthwhile.
He/she didnt ask whether people would like it, whether it gimped a team etc.

Plain covered all points well in the 2nd post, so no need to keep beating a horse with why you think it sucks or why you wouldnt invite a petless MM to your team.

A petless MM is basically a Corruptor sans the HPs and damage that come along with that AT (generally speaking). Some Corrs focus on damage while others play on the buff/debuff aspects. When most people looking to add players to a team are asking for major damage dealers, they dont usually look at MMs to fill that role. If the player can bring buffs/debuffs...I dont see how it is such a game breaking issue to have this concept toon in the same vicinity.

Having said that, to the OP...be prepared for people in game to "hate" on your idea the same way some on the forums have done in this thread so far (do a search on petless MMs and you'll see how heated people get over this idea). Before I lost interest in my petless MM, I ran my toon with friends and SG mates so I didnt experience any of that but YMMV.

To chime in here for a sec..

I have two 50 MM's that I've been tinkering with.
Mercs/Traps, Nin/Arrow

To be completely honest I am in love with the results of these two sets. I've been running around on teams just doing insane holds/debuffs. With secondary mostly pimped out on slots you can do 10x more holds than any other set that hit mostly 80% of the time and stack.

Teaming became easier with IO's and now that I've got 1 to Incarnate T4's across the board. It's alot of work and dedication plus money but I think (imo) the end results of AV's, EB mobs, and Giant Monsters being locked down speaks for itself.

At the end of the day, its all a hypothetical.

maybe he'd form his own team...
maybe you'd joined his team...
maybe he'd be in the position to kick you b/c you didnt play your toon the way he preferred...

Who are you people that kick others from teams? I dont get it unless theyre actually acting like a jerk.