"The game is balanced around SOs."
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-12-26 12:40 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Yeah I agree, a min/maxer is usually one of the best players in the game. In order to min/max, you have to know the game inside and out.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Never. A strict min/maxer is going to observe limits, gather information and determine optimum conditions within those limits.
These people are whiny idiots, those who will turn the difficulty up to 6/+1 and imagine it's the game's fault that they have a hard time. They will never look to themselves and complain about bias and imbalance. Everything is someone else's fault, and all the credit is mine. |
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I've fought IDF at +4/x8 with IOs and incarnate powers. It wasn't easy (I had to take it slow), and did involve several deaths in a single mission.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
Fight the IDF at that difficulty and see how you do. Vanguard, too.
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I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but I think that means it's achievable with SOs at something like +1/x6, as long as you're playing something that can solo reasonably to start with.
Vanguard are rather binary. Either they're a big PITA, or you can roll over them. It's usually control-heavy characters that can peel them.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Yeah recently got to try this out again. I have my main account here, over 5 years, still going strong 
but I decided to get me a freebie account just for the heck of it. In the end i decided on a spines/elec scrapper for my free account. I didn't have a spines character before, and I like the options you get with electric armor (self heal, tier 9, +end power, good utility) that character will happily run at x8 without issue, heck, without inspirations either 
Combat Kangaroos, Justice Server. First 50's
Jirra Roo Plant/Storm/Stone/Musculature Controller
Combat Kangaroo Rifle/Energy/Mace/Spiritual Blaster
Kung Fu Kangaroo Martial Arts/Reflexes/Body/Spiritual Scrapper
Tribal Arc Shield/Elec/Mu/Spiritual Tanker
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Definitely an important point. The melee folk, almost regardless of primary, secondary or even AT, will look at +0/x1 as being pretty easy once their powers get fleshed out with SOs. Depending on powersets, it starts to get fuzzy when starting to look at the ranged ATs, who have to deal with things that must meleers shrug, even when fighting at base difficulty (mezzes being a prime example). As far as the quote from the Dev regarding "3 red minions" being the balance point later in the game, I remember reading it somewhere in Arcana's Scrapper Secondary Analysis, so I always figured that quote was only in regard to Scrappers. Was that supposed to be a different balance point for everyone at end game, or was it just a set-point so Arcana could do another set of immortality-line calculations?
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Originally Posted by Dirges
It depends on how you look at it. If you are playing a class with it's own defense it is much easier, but the game balance isn't just on AT's with their own defense. The balance is also based on a emp/rad defender being able to solo as well. The bar is set low so that everyone could solo and handle basic game play, and it is why they have changed our ability to adjust difficulty for ourselves a few times now.
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11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
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The devs said that while three even level minions was the original balance point for standard content (which doesn't mean players are the exact equal of three even minions, by the way) as players fully slotted powers in the higher levels the players tended to outpace the standard content, to the point that *on average* the difficulty you experience in the lower levels vs three even minions would be comparable to the difficulty you experience in the higher levels vs three +3 minions. They didn't specifically target that, they were just expressing their belief that players get more powerful more quickly than the critters did at high levels, and that was their best guess as to just how much more powerful they got.
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Originally Posted by ArchGemini
As far as the quote from the Dev regarding "3 red minions" being the balance point later in the game, I remember reading it somewhere in Arcana's Scrapper Secondary Analysis, so I always figured that quote was only in regard to Scrappers. Was that supposed to be a different balance point for everyone at end game, or was it just a set-point so Arcana could do another set of immortality-line calculations?
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This is interesting, because I'm actually trying it. |
Originally Posted by peterpeter
That's what I remember also.
Personally, I've soloed spawns in the Rikti War Zone without having any enhancements at all on my level 50 kat/regen. It was tedious. As for incarnate content, I doubt if it's balanced around SO's, but I'm no expert there. |
I've got a long-running project toon, a claw/inv brute. I got it to 50 recently and have been VERY impressed with the performance.
So, I ran Ramiel's arc (solo, and crushed Trapdoor/Honoree/Vanguard debuff chick) and got my shiny Alpha slot.
I then reported directly to my first incarnate trial. It was a BAF/LAm double header.
This toon is fully slotted with level 30 IO's, and that's it. I figured I'd leech a few BAF's, get my level shift.
Well, imagine my surprise when the ONLY issue I had in both BAF and LAM was hitting escapees.
(blink)
I pulled Nightstar, several times, successfully. I pulled Seige once, and got splattered once. I was completely successful in the Lam, tanking Marauder, running both the lab and the warehouse all the way through without deaths.
I am astonished. Yes, I had buffs, but no more than anybody else. Heck, I even got a "good work" tell because I was able to find last the last crate in one of the warehouse runs.
So....
SO builds are perfectly viable in the early incarnate trials. ASSUMING, of course, that the buffs are there. But these days, that's pretty standard.
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So more of "subjective" point of comparison than a point designed around? Thanks, Arcana.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The devs said that while three even level minions was the original balance point for standard content (which doesn't mean players are the exact equal of three even minions, by the way) as players fully slotted powers in the higher levels the players tended to outpace the standard content, to the point that *on average* the difficulty you experience in the lower levels vs three even minions would be comparable to the difficulty you experience in the higher levels vs three +3 minions. They didn't specifically target that, they were just expressing their belief that players get more powerful more quickly than the critters did at high levels, and that was their best guess as to just how much more powerful they got.
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11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
While people say set IOs break the game, they kind of balance it at the same time. My friend played a Dual Blades/Super reflex scrapper and me a Dual Pistols/Energy blaster. Until I started using IO sets, I got my squishy keister handed to me over and over. Even at level 50 alpha slotted. Now he fights like a champion. Much sturdier but not stupidly sturdy that he outdoes scrapper defenses or anything.
SOs are in no way bad though. Really good for holding spaces until they're IO'd.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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I wonder what possible reason one might have for being squishier than the other.
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Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
My friend played a Dual Blades/Super reflex scrapper and me a Dual Pistols/Energy blaster.
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Same here, assuming you mean set IOs when you say you don't worry about them until 50. L30/35 generic IOs are basically SOs that you don't ever have to replace, and so they save quite a bit of inf (and reslotting time) over the course of 23 levels.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
Aside from the occasional Performance Shifter proc in Stamina, I don't usually even start worrying about IOs until one of my characters reaches level 50 -- at that point I figure out a "real" build, burn a respec, and trot off to Wentworth's. I don't tend to have too many problems getting to 50 on just SOs.
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My enhancement regimen for all characters these days is:
- The 5 GR enhancements + DFB SOs + TOs/DOs through level 21.
- Important global proc set IOs start getting slotted at level 20 (or later) depending on the lowest level they become available.
- Full slot replacement with SOs at 22.
- Full slot replacement with L30 generic IOs at 27. New slots get L30-40 generic IOs depending on recipe drops and what I can buy from the workbench.
- Full slot replacement with L50 set IOs at 50.
As "balanced" as the standard game content may be for SOs, most melee toons really take a huge leap in effectiveness, particularly with regards to defenses and END efficiency once all the necessary set IOs are slotted. The difference in survivablility of my friend's Invuln tanker after replacing all his SOs with his Mids-designed set IO scheme was night and day (reaching DEF softcaps, for instance).
Personally, I wouldn't want to dive into the Incarnate content on just SOs, but maybe that's just me. As a melee toon, there are just too many things that can one- and two-shot you if you don't have those set bonuses backing you up. Furthermore, many of the more annoying Incarnate gimmicks are much more tolerable with set IOs in play. For instance, my WP brute can usually stand in one of Malaise's World of Anguish circles and ignore the DoT; it usually goes away before it has whittled any more than about 25% of my hit points. I really doubt that would have been possible on SOs.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Not much. Normally Blasters dish out slightly less damage than Scrappers with far less safety. The fact that Blasters generally have greater range to their attacks doesn't do much at all to offset the lower survivability.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I wonder what possible reason one might have for being squishier than the other.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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The long-standing objective design criteria for standard content, which to the best of my knowledge is still the basic design rule, follows certain parameters the devs have either mentioned directly or hinted at in the past. I'm not even sure they are always thinking about all of these rules when they design the content, but in general they try to meet them. This is more my version of the design parameters than anything the devs explicitly have written down anywhere.|
Originally Posted by ArchGemini
So more of "subjective" point of comparison than a point designed around? Thanks, Arcana.
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1. When set to standard difficulty, +0x1 and no bosses, every power set combination built to solo slotted with standard (non-invention) enhancements should be able to solo that mission. If that's not true, either the difficulty is too high or that powerset combination is broken.
2. When scaled to +0x4, a tanker designed specifically to tank should be able to hold aggro and defend themselves for a significant amount of time with limited or no support.
3. When scaled to +0x8, it should not exceed the limits of a reasonably well-diversified full team of eight.
4. It should be as difficult as possible without violating the above limits.
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4.a. If it is a little more difficult occasionally (especially if it hammers on the weakness of a particular AT or powerset), that's OK cause we gave them inspirations and Shivans.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
4. It should be as difficult as possible without violating the above limits.
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Some content is explicitly not designed to the standard content limits. The Praetorian arc from Tina and Maria, for example, and the two "end game" task forces of LRSF and STF are not constructed to those limits, the two trials in particular were *explicitly* exempted by explicit decision and by public dev pronouncement.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
4.a. If it is a little more difficult occasionally (especially if it hammers on the weakness of a particular AT or powerset), that's OK cause we gave them inspirations and Shivans.
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CoV was designed to be slightly more difficult in general, specifically because the CoV archetypes were themselves designed to be somewhat more self-sufficient and a further departure from holy-trinity style design.
Also, everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules.
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This may be correct, but a min/maxer may just be someone who can read min/max builds posted on the forums, rather than someone who has worked it out for himself/herself. At this point in the game, there's a lot of the number-crunching done already for folks to copy....
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Yeah I agree, a min/maxer is usually one of the best players in the game. In order to min/max, you have to know the game inside and out.
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Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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If you're copying numbers without understanding them, you're not a min/maxer. You're a monkey.
| At this point in the game, there's a lot of the number-crunching done already for folks to copy.... |
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That's a surprisingly plausible explanation.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules.
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Well, that or the Devs intended Praetoria to be a hard mode that players would play for the sake of playing the game on hard mode without any increased rewards for doing so. But that sort of thing tends to appeal to a smaller segment of the playerbase, so that's not really all that plausible for the amount of work they put into it if it's not intended to appeal most of the playerbase.
Although i will admit it's also been quite some time since i saw anyone in any of my global channels or friends list mention Praetoria. In the last couple of months i can only recall a couple of friends who'd been gone from the game for over a year playing in Praetoria, and even then it was just a couple alts and all the rest of their new alts since then have been in Paragon or the Rogue Isles. Strange, that.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Praetoria these days really does give off the vibe of a city without supers...
Mainly because you can play 1-20 without ever seeing anyone else in the skies.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
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Anyone remember when max difficulty was +2/x1?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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This was my thought.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Well, there's your problem.
The game is balance around SOs at ordinary level of difficulty. |
Tell them to try soloing at a lower level of difficulty that gives them the feel they want.
If they want to up the difficulty, then they need to remember it gets harder for that reason.
Could my DB/WP solo at 4/8 (before I stripped it of IOs)? Yes! But it wasn't always easy (Arachnos are a different beast than Council for instance).
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Not all my characters are IO'd out. Some are partially IO'ed some are still running on SOs.
Another thing to keep in mind is also the enemies that you are facing. Fighting Freaks and Councils is different from fighting Carnies or Maltas.
I also agree with what ClawsnEffect has said. Knowledge of the game is also an important thing.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Devs didn't say that the game was balanced around SOs. I don't think that there are any direct quotes of them saying that.
What they did say was that the existing game was not made harder to compensate for IOs being added. As such, any content pre-I9 could be considered to be balanced around SOs. However, any content added post-I9 does not need to be balanced around SOs.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Another thing people do is bandy about the "balanced around SOs" notion as though it somehow suggests that means the devs would completely ignore what IOs could do.
I think their target is more along the lines of "keep difficulty focused on SO builds while at least giving some thought to what a maxed out character might be able to do with the content". There are some ways to make content challenging that won't crush an SO'd character but would still make an IO'd one consider their cranked-up difficulty settings. Defense debuffs are one of the most commonly encountered. Unfortuantely, moderate defense debuffs don't seem very common; they're either moderately scaled but pervasive (so that stacking and cascade failure are a real issue) or relatively infrequent but fairly immense and autohit (see Tarantula Mistresses).
Folks like to say that the Incarnate end game is tuned towards IO'd characters, but I don't think it is. A league can roll reasonably through most of the iTrials if they meet one of two criteria: mostly random league composition with plenty of IO'd characters, or league assembled with an eye towards providing enough control, buffs and debuffs around a core of DPS. In other words, if you don't have a bunch of IO'd (or heavily level-shifted) characters on your league, you need to do what we all did before IOs - build the team more carefully. Obviously, as the characters in question gain Incarnate powers and level shifts, this need drops off again, since everyone gains some ability as a buffer and (to a much smaller extent) debuffer, and +1 foes hit a lot less hard (and often) than +4 foes.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I hope you don't mind but I am adding this to my sig right now with proper credit to you...|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules.
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(Edited to fix slight fat finger mishap in the sig)
Dragon-King First level 50 -- Fire/Nrg Blaster
(and to many alts to mention)
Protector
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| Originally by Arcanaville: Everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules. |
For a long time I've wanted to do an "Old Lord Recluse's Strike Force," where everyone unequips their Incarnate stuff and slots up an alternate build with SOs.