The VIP vs Freemium Debate as a Tier 9 Vet
By
Angry_Citizen,
Posted on: 2011-12-20 13:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I'm in roughly the same situation as you. I'm not quite Tier 9, yet, but will be soon. At that point, I'm not seeing very much that would entice me to remain a VIP.
That's the main thing I don't understand about the free-to-play roll out - if I was a new player, it would make a lot of sense to pay for VIP instead of staying premium. VIP would unlock a lot more stuff that I wouldn't have available otherwise. But as a long-standing veteran, there's very little that would make me want to continue to pay that extra money each month.
Perhaps there is some sort of perverse marketing logic at play where they would rather have newer players become VIPs rather than keep veterans as VIPs? I don't know, but they definitely did not leave very much enticement for long-time veterans.
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I highly suspect that the logic is to 'retain' long term subscribers as they are the experienced core 'most likely team leaders' and life of the game for newbies.
Also, it entices previous subscribers to come back and play 'like they always did' before, again, keeping the servers filled with bodies and lively, which makes the game more enticing to other players.
Of course, they do have the 'VIP only' further development of characters in Incarnate abilities, and I will very likely have a serious interest again if the solo incarnate content is fun. I just think there needs to be more reason to pay that $15 a month, in general.
I would, of course, miss the quick hop onto a forming BAF/LAM for a quick large team experience, but the speed run aspect that is nearly always done on those makes me feel like I'm just grinding rewards, which essentially I am. The other iTrials I enjoy less, so they feel like grinding even more so.
Of course, I do want that Statesman's Helmet, so kudos on that dangling carrot, it will make the decision very tough. 
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I'm in the same boat, but Incarnates is too juicy for me to pass up. The 550 points a month is gravy.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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This is the conclusion I came to. I also like racking up a reward token every month.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm in the same boat, but Incarnates is too juicy for me to pass up. The 550 points a month is gravy.
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Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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You are also missing the Epic Archetypes, Time Manipulation, and the Signature Story Arcs, and the ability to create a Supergroup or pay base rent.|
Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
I use my banked points to unlock Time Manipulation and First Ward, and bam! I have everything I had previously, except incarnate abilities.
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When Freedom went live, I dropped my subscription and became a T6 VIP (Almost T7). Since then, I've bought points a few times, and am now a T7 and partway through T8. I have quite a few points banked from my purchases, but I slowly go through them: I've bought a few costumes and power sets, and I paid for First Ward and each of the Signature Story Arcs.
Eventually, I'll go back to VIP, because I'd like to get in on the Incarnate stuff that I've skipped. But until then, I'm quite happy spending a few bucks on points when I have it, rather than paying a subscription every time it comes up.
If I were a lower tier, I may not feel the same way - $5 for the Sig Arcs plus $2 for the IO license plus $2 for the market license means that I'm paying $9 a month to get the minimum amount of stuff I want - It's worth paying the little bit extra for a subscription.
@Roderick
Not to poke the bear, but keep in mind that the new Dark Astoria content will be VIP exclusive.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
RAAAAAAAAR
Well, that seems clear, no? Incarnate content and all that.
Sooo looking forward to it, too. Paragon's got my money already, I might as well enjoy it.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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And, again - booo to that decision. |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Not to poke the bear, but keep in mind that the new Dark Astoria content will be VIP exclusive.
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I wouldn't mind it if it were part of the "tiered" Dark Astoria suggested before - going to the spirit realm as a 50 incarnate to deal with mot, after dealing with current, lower level threats in the 20s, and getting deeper into it in the 30s, say, in the current zone... which would make that "incarnate" content more meaningful and part of an overall, interesting progression of a sort we haven't really seen for a zone.
Instead... this. Meh. AFAIC, we've basically lost another zone, one that had a lot of backstory (and current-story) potential.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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I'm not the story designer here, eventually you'll start hearing from Aeon, Protean and crew about that, however there is *plenty* of story coming your way in the new DA experience.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
And, again - booo to that decision.
I wouldn't mind it if it were part of the "tiered" Dark Astoria suggested before - going to the spirit realm as a 50 incarnate to deal with mot, after dealing with current, lower level threats in the 20s, and getting deeper into it in the 30s, say, in the current zone... which would make that "incarnate" content more meaningful and part of an overall, interesting progression of a sort we haven't really seen for a zone. Instead... this. Meh. AFAIC, we've basically lost another zone, one that had a lot of backstory (and current-story) potential. |
Please keep in mind the stated goal for this zone: A solo/smaller group Incarnate path for those who do not like the Trials.
Also, we're not working on this zone to the exclusion of lower level content. There's still plenty of that in the works.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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Give us some hints |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Also, we're not working on this zone to the exclusion of lower level content. There's still plenty of that in the works.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Intriguing. Is it necessary Incarnate-exclusive, or could insane scrappers and stalkers have a go at it too?
| Please keep in mind the stated goal for this zone: A solo/smaller group Incarnate path for those who do not like the Trials. |
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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I knwo you're not the story guy, Z. And I'm not saying you're not working on lower level content. I'm saying the choice made for this zone is one I strongly disagree with as being the only way it was handled. |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I'm not the story designer here, eventually you'll start hearing from Aeon, Protean and crew about that, however there is *plenty* of story coming your way in the new DA experience.
Please keep in mind the stated goal for this zone: A solo/smaller group Incarnate path for those who do not like the Trials. Also, we're not working on this zone to the exclusion of lower level content. There's still plenty of that in the works. |
The zone is, as I understand it:
(A) going to be a level 50 zone, removing it for any non-VIP and any lower level VIPs (going in there in the early 20s was an adventure)
(b) solely (thanks to the above) incarnate, and
(c) getting a Praetorian dumped in it for some bizzarre reason that has nothing to do with DA itself. (Sorry, but no, it doesn't.)
DA has had a LOT of hints in it, a LOT of atmosphere, a great three-way potential conflict with the Tsoo looking for "something" (what is never revealed,) the BP trying to wake Mot, and the CoT trying to stop them ("Reinforce the bindings! The sleeper must not wake!" dialog.)
Again - having the upcoming changes to DA as a capping element - the "spirit world" or something - for the incarnate stuff... I'd have been thrilled with that, with other, *non* incarnate, lower level content doing what people have begged for for YEARS - exploring the zone and its history. Which itself would probably "whet the appetite" for free/premium people to see how it ends, getting you at least some part-time VIPs paying money that aren't now.
But that's not what's happening. And I'll repeat it to Aeon, etc, too. I'm extremely disappointed in how this seems to have been handled. I know we haven't seen I22 on beta yet... but it seems to me that, when getting ready to "revamp a zone," the folks responsible just took a list of zones from the forum requests without actually looking at the sorts of things that were suggested.
To me, it's removing and gutting what could have been a great zone if there had been actual *missions* there for the past several years.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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I suspect it is a path to becoming Incarnate. So an insane scrapper, or a sane one for that matter (if you can find one), can start the content there and soon unlock the Alpha slot and become an incarnate. And so can everyone else. |
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Intriguing. Is it necessary Incarnate-exclusive, or could insane scrappers and stalkers have a go at it too?
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I'm looking forward to DA very much. In fact, I've basically given up on Incarnate stuff until then. So I could drop to premium. I'm tempted. I don't actually care about the Statesman mask. But money isn't quite tight enough for me to make the switch just for the brief period of time before the next issue comes out. (It will be brief, right? Right!?)
Of course, once classes start and I all but stop playing, I'll have to reconsider again.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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Here's a hint.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Give us some hints
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There's lower level content in the works.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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A) Non-VIP's can enter the zone, they just can't run the missions. I don't think they have said one way or another but I suspect lower level toons will be in the same boat.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
The zone is, as I understand it:
(A) going to be a level 50 zone, removing it for any non-VIP and any lower level VIPs (going in there in the early 20s was an adventure) (b) solely (thanks to the above) incarnate, and (c) getting a Praetorian dumped in it for some bizzarre reason that has nothing to do with DA itself. (Sorry, but no, it doesn't.) |
B) As peterpeter mentioned, it's a path to unlocking incarnates, which means non-incarnates can go in there and fight stuff.
C) Why don't you wait to find out what the story is before you write it off as bizarre and inappropriate?
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
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I hear you, and I shared some of your sentiment, however I'd like to posit a challenge to you:|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
*snip*
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Try to think of this as a progression of the story line in an ever changing world. What happens if the BP managed to awaken the sleeper? What would the COT do if the failed in stopping them?
There's lots of questions we could answer, including some nagging ones about a certain letter writer, when viewed through the lens of a continuation of the story.
Call it an exercise in creativity. I understand your viewpoint, and at the same time believe that there's all sorts of possibilities to explore.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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Hmmm... You heard it here first!! Low level content for Empaths...|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Here's a hint.
There's lower level content in the works. |
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Very cool of you to admit and I do too, but am keeping an open mind to see what they're brewing...|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I hear you, and I shared some of your sentiment, however I'd like to posit a challenge to you:
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| Try to think of this as a progression of the story line in an ever changing world. What happens if the BP managed to awaken the sleeper? What would the COT do if the failed in stopping them? |
Not rewriting everything, but taking those elements and making them explode into fruition which leads to new adventures, stories and threats.
That seems like the way to do it.
I don't mind if the mysteries we've had all this time come to completion without me being a part of it, but I hope that the new takes are based around those things and go from there with me taking part.
Hopefully not just replacement, rewrite, redux!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Hey, we added new content for Empaths...It's called the Team Up Teleporter. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Hmmm... You heard it here first!! Low level content for Empaths...
|
Bazinga.
(As someone who plays Ice/Empath I can safely make this joke)
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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See, there are two "sets" of progression here, though, and I think you're sacrificing one on the altar of the other without needing to. |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I hear you, and I shared some of your sentiment, however I'd like to posit a challenge to you:
Try to think of this as a progression of the story line in an ever changing world. What happens if the BP managed to awaken the sleeper? What would the COT do if the failed in stopping them? There's lots of questions we could answer, including some nagging ones about a certain letter writer, when viewed through the lens of a continuation of the story. Call it an exercise in creativity. I understand your viewpoint, and at the same time believe that there's all sorts of possibilities to explore. |
The first is the progression of the character. We've had it presented to us with the story evolving through time as the character goes from 1-50 - and us all, essentially, starting at the same "time."
The level 1 character is in the position (barring individual RP elements/backstories, which you at PS can't control - though they make for odd dialog later) of thinking, for instance, that:
- The Rikti invaded twice. They're all bad. Hero 1 is dead.
- Nemesis is history. He's been gone for a while now.
- Crey is a big company, but not necessarily "evil." Hey, look, some Crey Cola! A Crey washing machine! No issues there at all!
- Paragon protectors are simply a supergroup, with no ties to anyone (any more than any other SG.) Nothing particularly special, other than nobody sees their faces.
(That, of course, is from the hero POV.)
As you go from 1-50, that story evolves. And it's an "evolution" that's supported, honestly, by Ouroboros- even as they let you "cheat" and skip around in it.
The other evolution, of course, is the change in the game world. The destruction of Galaxy, the upcoming removal of states, the introduction of the RWZ and Vanguard (which I was really hoping you'd use as a model here.)
Doing this change the way you're doing it - again, by my understanding of what you're doing, as revealed at the pummit, etc. - is focusing *solely* on the second (change the game world) without exploring the first - and, quite honestly, losing a *lot* of storytelling possibility there - as well as, my opinion of course, really not helping the zone from what I've seen *so far.* That opinion can, of course, change once this hits beta - I know how things can be lost in screenshots - but it looks like the overall "vibe" of DA that hooked ME long ago is going to be gone.
(And, as mentioned, doing the multiple levels and capping it with Incarnate content would be creating a "hook" that could get free/premium players to *want* to go VIP for at least a while to see how it ends... and possibly get drawn more into the Incarnate system, paying you guys some more.)
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
If the Incarnate progress is as glacially slow as it sounds in DA to force people to the trials, I'll finish up the WWD SSA, mourn the loss of my Alpha slots, and go premium.
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That's the other risk. |
Originally Posted by Ogi
If the Incarnate progress is as glacially slow as it sounds in DA to force people to the trials, I'll finish up the WWD SSA, mourn the loss of my Alpha slots, and go premium.
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Then again, that's the problem they had when introducing trials, too. They only had the two - which led (not incorrectly, IMHO) to comments on "Dev sponsored farming" and the feel of grind.
I think they did Alpha properly - and that they should have had both a solo or "regular" team path (1-8 people) as well as the trials coming out at the same time. I appreciate the system is a lot of work, and that would have been even more - but a lot of the complaints that have been made could have been avoided, I think.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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I *LOVE* how Alpha was done and wish the rest of it used the same system. Alpha was Incarnates done right.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
...
I think they did Alpha properly - and that they should have had both a solo or "regular" team path (1-8 people) as well as the trials coming out at the same time. I appreciate the system is a lot of work, and that would have been even more - but a lot of the complaints that have been made could have been avoided, I think. |
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"As it sounds"? Who are you listening to?|
Originally Posted by Ogi
If the Incarnate progress is as glacially slow as it sounds in DA to force people to the trials, I'll finish up the WWD SSA, mourn the loss of my Alpha slots, and go premium.
|
It can't be the devs. They've only announced the zone and some high-level details. Certainly not reward rates.
It can't be players who've actually tested the zone. If that's being done now, it's being done internally or with an NDA.
So it's probably players who don't know what they're actually talking about and are imagining worst-case scenarios. Credible lot, that.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Lately, I've been seriously considering going premium, as for what I want out of the game, it seems to be the best deal.
As a VIP, I gain access to (that I don't have already):
*Incarnate abilities
A couple of additional considerations I have for staying VIP is, the Loyalty Program. A Statesman's Helmet would be nice, and also, I need 3 more reward tokens to unlock the celestial armor.
-Or-
I go freemium
I use my banked points to unlock Time Manipulation and First Ward, and bam! I have everything I had previously, except incarnate abilities. As for slots, I've bought several of the years, and therefore have roughly 24 slots on Freedom, 17 slots on Virtue, and 10 or so on Justice for unlocks. That is waaay more than enough characters (not all, but plenty) to play for months, if not years.
So, I question myself, "Am I willing to pay $15 a month just for incarnate access and eventually celestial armor/Statesman's Helmet?" I don't especially enjoy iTrials, and seeing where the development on them is going, I expect to like the newer ones less and less. However, I would miss perma Clarion for squishies.
The points breakdown is another issue:
As a VIP: 550 points + Incarnates for $15 each month
or
As Freemium: each lot of 400 points is $5 (each month or as needed)
Simply, freemium is the waaay better deal when I consider how much I spend unlocking costume sets/powersets as they come out.
It's a tough question.
One other possibility: I could just pay $45 right now and get 3x more points than I would remaining VIP and unlock celestial armor 'right now'. Then, I would have plenty of banked points to last...forever, most likely.
Of course, this is my debate as a tier 9 veteran. If I didn't have permanent IO access and/or everything else unlocked for free, it would be a different set of considerations entirely.
Member of:
Repeat Offenders Network - The Largest Coalition Network in the Game, across Virtue, Freedom, Justice and Exalted. Open to all, check us out.
Current Team Project: Pending