Well, I can't think of much else that's better to get.
Pyre Mastery is amazing.
You can't go wrong with picking up Ring of Fire, Fire Blast, and Fire Ball. That'll give you solid ranged attack ability.
[b]Champion Server:
Shining Shieldmaiden: Shield Defense/Super Strength Tanker
Twilight Sparkle: Magical Friendship Unicorn
I appreciate the response, sincerely. I guess I don't feel I should have to add any kind of fire powers to my tank if conceptually that is not what I am going for. (Or range at all, for that matter!). But I am still wanting to hear from others.
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
I don't have a lot of iTrial experience, and I don't know what many of the rings and such around me mean, so to play it safe I'll often hang back and tank at range. I use Taunt, Hurl and Laser Eye Beams, and they seem to work good. The AVs usually start yelling warnings at me pretty quick, anyway.
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There are some nice attacks available to you in the APP's and I do find them useful on my tankers... Fire Ball makes a nice ranged attention getter. HOWEVER, you sacrifice the vast majority of your damage potential if you stay at range. Sometimes that's useful if you need to hold an AV's attention from range but if your damage output is a factor in the fight then you need to be in melee... those APP attacks are nice, but they're fairly anemic in the DPS category thanks to their recharge and somewhat lowered damage numbers.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
Now to me, this was beyond funny. But maybe I am the one that is the joke...is it generally expected (and the general practice) that tanks get ranged attacks 41-50? Can someone tell me I am not crazy? Or at least that I am?
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I have a couple of melee characters who have zero ranged attacks and generally haven't found it a huge problem. Now I haven't ever played the MoM trial so I don't know any specifics about it but I certainly wouldn't expect melee characters to be effective damage dealers from range.
Bottom line it sounds like that league leader was talking nonsense.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
The pink rings are completely resistable though the DoT does add up over time. I've seen plenty of characters stay in them and a few who know how to jump time attacks just hop in and out of melee with no problem.
With well time/staggered Barrier/Rebirth or even super healing umbrella's from incandescense I've been on teams where you pretty much just heal through it.
There are plenty of options that don't involve ranged attacks though it is the safest way to deal with them.
When I run MoMs I call for everyone to back away when there is 5 secs left to the Pink Circle drop. Usually everyone except 0-2 people will back away. If a pink circle is triggered by the people who didn't back away it is usually easily managed by Rebirth if its 1-2 circles or the AV can be pulled out of it (except malaise, moving malaise is more work than its worth). Ideally though, people will just pay attention and move away from the AV when called to spread out so that melee won't be restricted for the next 20 seconds.
I just did my first MoM tonight. Leader was very patient to explain it to me. I ignored the patches except when they overlapped and gave me like 75 dot, but *only* because there were an absurd amount of heals in the team, I was on a Stalker, I didn't even die, and some people did.
Although the team was very experienced except for me, I asked if it would be too hard without heals and they said 'yes'. Not a problem on my EM Stalker because when there was too much dot I used the PvP tactics of queing Total Focus/Energy Transfer and running past the AV so that I would execute the slow attack when I was far, but certainly a problem for a Tanker who would stay all the time there.
Right after that I was rejected on a MoM by another player because I was a Stalker (first time in three years that happened to me, and on freedom, so I wasn't upset). 10 minutes later the same guy was 'BAF forming'. So it must be kinda hard for some team compositions (I guess, when I did it there was a ton of heals, even my Stalker didn't feel the patches).
You could take the Epic/Patron ranged attacks, but that's not really going to be any kind of worthwhile damage output against an AV.
If you have taunt you can try to pull the AV out of the pink patch, but other than that all you can really do is stand there and wait for the patches.
It's not the highlight of the trial for me either.
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If you have not run Apex/Tin Mage until they are routine, do so.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I appreciate the response, sincerely. I guess I don't feel I should have to add any kind of fire powers to my tank if conceptually that is not what I am going for. (Or range at all, for that matter!). But I am still wanting to hear from others.
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There is no encounter in any iTrial yet that is not foreshadowed in those two taskforces.
In addition, they are insanely profitable. Once you know how it's not difficult to run both in 45 minutes, and you get 80 merits plus reward tables.
Yes, you do need good toons.
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What's a 'good toon'?
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Originally Posted by mauk2
If you have not run Apex/Tin Mage until they are routine, do so.
There is no encounter in any iTrial yet that is not foreshadowed in those two taskforces. In addition, they are insanely profitable. Once you know how it's not difficult to run both in 45 minutes, and you get 80 merits plus reward tables. Yes, you do need good toons. |
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If you are going to stick by your concept then you will have to accept there may be encounters that you can not contribute as much as others. If you want to be contribute to a league in every trial and encounter you will have to make some adjustments to your build.
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Originally Posted by shaggy5
I appreciate the response, sincerely. I guess I don't feel I should have to add any kind of fire powers to my tank if conceptually that is not what I am going for. (Or range at all, for that matter!). But I am still wanting to hear from others.
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Paragonian Knights
Justice Company
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This is wrong on so many levels it is not funny. For anyone to reject another player because of the AT, is ridiculous as it is inflammatory. |
Originally Posted by Kioshi
Right after that I was rejected on a MoM by another player because I was a Stalker (first time in three years that happened to me, and on freedom, so I wasn't upset). 10 minutes later the same guy was 'BAF forming'. So it must be kinda hard for some team compositions (I guess, when I did it there was a ton of heals, even my Stalker didn't feel the patches).
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Had I been in your position, I would place said individual on permanent ignore never to have anything to do with them. There is no reason anyone can give to exclude any AT from doing any trial at any time.
As for Shaggy's problem, I see no problem how you developed your Tanker. If you decided not to have any ranged attacks, so be it. No hero/villain can be the, be all to beat all. Case in point, my own 50 lvl Scrapper and Tank do not have any 'ranged' weapons. One is a melee specialist (scrapper) and the other, dual swords. Someone tells me "I should have ranged weapons" my response is, that is your opinion and I do not hold to that opinion with the makeup of my character.
Currently, my 44th lvl Defender (Kin/DP) has epic powers available. I am not taking any of them. They are a waste of time for my defender because what is available for epic powers suck in my opinion. Therefore, I am selecting other powers to enhance my defender's current powers and survivability. Epic or Patron powers are not all that, not when they are hard lock for each AT. Powers like 'Body Mastery' and 'Weapon Mastery' should be available to all ATs since they are more AT neutral. I'd rather have access to these two for my defender, but they are not. Nevertheless, that is another topic of discussion.
Anyway, Shaggy, I think you handled it in the best possible manner as you could. At least it sounds like you enjoyed the trial.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Sorry--I actually don't know how this connect to the question. I never asked, "Should I have good toons? or "What Trials are good" or whatever. I just wanted to know about ranged attacks on tanks.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
If you have not run Apex/Tin Mage until they are routine, do so.
There is no encounter in any iTrial yet that is not foreshadowed in those two taskforces. In addition, they are insanely profitable. Once you know how it's not difficult to run both in 45 minutes, and you get 80 merits plus reward tables. Yes, you do need good toons. |
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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I think Mauk2 was mentioning Apex/Tin Mage in the context that there are other trials besides MoM where having *only* melee attacks reduces what you can contribute damage-wise. |
Originally Posted by shaggy5
Sorry--I actually don't know how this connect to the question. I never asked, "Should I have good toons? or "What Trials are good" or whatever. I just wanted to know about ranged attacks on tanks.
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I am a little surprised that the trial leader was hung up on whether your tank had ranged damage, though, as others have commented tanker ranged damage is not very likely to make or break taking down a 54+2 AV. When I'm leading a team or league, I'm hiring a tanker to soak alphas, keep as much damage and mezz off the squishies as possible so they can do their job, and if I get a great one, set a good team speed based on team makeup and what we are facing.
Ranged damage can be helpful in holding aggro, in combination with Taunt, since Taunt magnifies any damage you are doing. If you can find any epic pool with a ranged attack you like, its a handy thing to have (also lets you pick off runners, pull when necessary, etc.). I also like Darkest Night, from the Ghost Widow Patron Power Pool, as it not only continually aggros the spawn or AV but also reduces their damage output. Of course, you have to go redside for that. I consider that the ideal pool and power for a tank who really wants to survive and protect a team. I would take a competent tank with no ranged attacks over an incompetent one with every fire attack in the pool any day, though.
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Originally Posted by shaggy5
"Play blaster, I am a tank? I have no ranged attacks"
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It's never a bad thing to have a tank set up to be multidimensional especially if you intend to use it on most of the vast array of unique content in the game, and even in general mission use ranged attacks can allow you to easily snag runners, delicately pull within a mob, etc etc.
Some others mentioned pyre mastery and it's a good choice, my fire tanks got fire blast 3slotted and fireball 6'd, in addition to the vet reward nemesis staff and black wand the tank can go from up close melee to ranged character seamlessly.
It's a worthwhile path to take with your tanks build plans.
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The issue was, your league leader did not want you to drop purple patches on Malaise/Mother Malaise. |
Originally Posted by shaggy5
Sorry--I actually don't know how this connect to the question. I never asked, "Should I have good toons? or "What Trials are good" or whatever. I just wanted to know about ranged attacks on tanks.
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This is a skill you can practice against Battle Maiden in the Apex/Tin Mage combo. That battle is not easy, but at least it's not against level 56's.
Oh, and you also need a VERY good toon to fight a 56 at all, since even with three level shifts you're looking at a +3. Fighting a +5 or +6 AV is just dumb.
To simplify: You have to have a good toon, IE, at least Alpha'd, preferably with at least 1 incarnate shift, because if you don't you're ranging from "useless boat anchor" to "not pulling your weight."
That clear it up?
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Unfortunately you can't use either of those Vet attacks during the MoM trial (or any Trial).
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Originally Posted by Acemace
Some others mentioned pyre mastery and it's a good choice, my fire tanks got fire blast 3slotted and fireball 6'd, in addition to the vet reward nemesis staff and black wand the tank can go from up close melee to ranged character seamlessly.
It's a worthwhile path to take with your tanks build plans. |
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So let me get this straight. If my tank does not have does not have any ranged attacks at all, then it is useless; as in it serves no purpose and shouldn't be included in any TF? |
Originally Posted by mauk2
because if you don't you're ranging from "useless boat anchor" to "not pulling your weight."
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Originally Posted by mauk2
That clear it up?
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Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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They're nice to get, but not so nice it's the only way to build for. I picked up the ranged attacks on my offensive fire build, but they wouldn't be much help on my defensive one. I'd rather Maneuvers and my hold, for instance. And I've run plenty of Apex TF's with Grey Pilgrim, so it's not like you need to stay at range all the time.
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Originally Posted by Acemace
It's never a bad thing to have a tank set up to be multidimensional especially if you intend to use it on most of the vast array of unique content in the game, and even in general mission use ranged attacks can allow you to easily snag runners, delicately pull within a mob, etc etc.
Some others mentioned pyre mastery and it's a good choice, my fire tanks got fire blast 3slotted and fireball 6'd, in addition to the vet reward nemesis staff and black wand the tank can go from up close melee to ranged character seamlessly. It's a worthwhile path to take with your tanks build plans. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Fortunately, Pyre Mastery fit my concept as a Stone-Fire. Most of the utility of ranged attacks have been already been mentioned, but I want to throw out a few extra ideas.
This may be obvious to most, but was a revelation to me when I finally noticed it. Example: ITF. You aggro the spawn but the healer stays back outside you AoEs. Target him and you can still activate PBAoEs while shooting him in between and without changing targets. Worst case is usually Fire Blast-Fire Sword Circle-Fire Blast-Combustion-Fireblast and he drops - target nearest - Fireball. That is all seamless. If build up was active then two Fire Blasts usually does the trick.
In addition -
Without a ST ranged (Fire Blast) no Apocalypse.
Without a targeted AoE (Fireball) no Ragnarok.
I also use the Char for a nice little hold for LGTF, etc. The Char gets a 4 slot Basilisk Gaze. Those three powers and 14 slots account for 27.5% of my desperatly needed Global Recharge.
Lastly -
I don't know about other Tanker APP ST ranged powers, but Mids says my Fire Blast DPS is 33.71. DPA shows 136.1
That excludes Musculature Radial Paragon and Radial Interface Paragon. I routinely kill things quickly at range with 1-3 shots (Fireblast-Fireball-Fireblast is almost seamless for the first three shots or Fire Blast x 2 with a small gap). Recharge on Fire Blast shows 2.58 sec. With Alpha and Reactive on it shows 216.8 DPA and 53.75 DPS. These numbers are all with Granite active.
for comparison - also without Alpha or Interface in Granite
Greater Fire Sword - 31.79 DPS - DPA 253.5
Incinerate is -36.74 DPS - DPA 226
Scorch is - 31.5 DPS - DPA 82.96
Obviously Bruising and the DPAs on Incinerate and GFS are huge and highly preferable but if you can't stand in melee they are effectivly zero.
So Fire Blast at least does not seem all that big a damage compromise to me. Even before the Purple set it was great with a Decimation. Since even with loads of global my ST attack chain would have gaps I use Fire Blast all the time and like it muchly.
Jak
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(blink)|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
So let me get this straight. If my tank does not have does not have any ranged attacks at all, then it is useless; as in it serves no purpose and shouldn't be included in any TF?
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Srsly? Try reading what I said: Fighting +5's and +6's makes you effectively useless. I do not give a rats backside if you have ranged attacks or not. Assuming you have a toon capable of effectively participating (either leveled appropriately or a heavy support toon), ALL toons can do well in either of those battles. If you know how to fight while getting bombed with death patches, it doesn't matter if you have ranged attacks or not.
(Here's a hint: Either move yourself away when the patches are about to appear, or kite the baddie out of them and keep on wailin'.)
Reading comprehension, try it!
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Ranged attacks on melee toons are always nice, see how much the Claws people praise Focus for example.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
Sorry--I actually don't know how this connect to the question. I never asked, "Should I have good toons? or "What Trials are good" or whatever. I just wanted to know about ranged attacks on tanks.
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I've been struggling with my EM/Nin Stalker build to fit Fire Blast and Fire Ball (while keeping AoE capped, this last part has been hard) because I feel Dark Blast is lackluster and even then I get good mileage from it.
Apart from that... You don't need them, it's your call. Just like you may not be 100% effective on two of the AVs on MoM (as I said, I only managed to stay punching the AV in the face because the team had so much healing I didn't care about the patch), MMs for example (an entire AT) always complain they have to go without pets on some trials (like the get grenades phase in Lambda where my Stalker is great, destroy a crate in 5 seconds and run away).
Same thing on the ITF, my ST Stalker feels quite useless there with all the AoE and the 1000 mobs - only ITF I felt useful with her was on a +3 one where the bosses/EBs actually did take sometime to kill and they were also a threat even to the resist-based Brutes at that level. So I got a role killing lvl 53 bosses (since EM has two very hard hitters), but on a speed ITF, I'm corpse blasting half the time (since said hard hitters are also slow animating) and I can't even make use of AS.
So IMO there's no problem at all in not having ranged attacks if you don't feel like it. While you didn't ask about iTrials, it sounded so because you mentioned
MoM. Aside from the patches thing I don't think there's another you'll contribute less for not having ranged attacks (I haven't run UGT).
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The premise of this thread revolves around lack of ranged attacks on Tankers. Your interjection of whatever lvl AV does not take away this fact. I read your statement in its entirety with full comprehension of what you wrote. However, it is your last statement that what I questioned, not if the toon in question is leveled appropriately. Arbitrarily stating a toon is useless "just because..." they may or may not have a level to someone's liking does not pass the smell test. |
Originally Posted by mauk2
(blink)
Srsly? Try reading what I said: Fighting +5's and +6's makes you effectively useless. I do not give a rats backside if you have ranged attacks or not. Assuming you have a toon capable of effectively participating (either leveled appropriately or a heavy support toon), ALL toons can do well in either of those battles. If you know how to fight while getting bombed with death patches, it doesn't matter if you have ranged attacks or not. (Here's a hint: Either move yourself away when the patches are about to appear, or kite the baddie out of them and keep on wailin'.) Reading comprehension, try it! |
Players, all players take offense whether they want to admit it or not, when another player insults said toon. Said toon is an extension of the player who invested their time, energy, and their personal ideas into creating a particular toon. This is a fact of gaming I have witnessed and studied across a number of genres, including this medium.
The fact a person may or may not have the experience in "avoiding getting bombed with death patches" is a completely different matter and off-topic from what the originator of this thread inquired about. Alternatively, a person who lacks such experience will soon gain it if they have the capability of learning. Did you come to play this game with the foreknowledge of the game's mechanics knowing what, when, where, and how to respond from the get go? No, I don't think so. None of us have.
Additionally, be careful in slinging around off-hand comments about reading comprehension (i.e.: questioning someone' intelligence). You might find yourself insulting someone who may have a higher degree of intelligence and holding master's degree or higher. Such a comment can be construed as a personal attack, a violation of ToS.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
If folks can dial it down a notch, I think Mauk2 was recommending the op to practice jousting the av with melee attacks on apex/tin Mage where said practice may go smoother than fighting a +6 AV. I think he is recommending that so the op doesn't have to worry about taking ranged attacks period, which is definitely pertinent to the thread.
I had the strangest conversation during my first attempt at MoM tonight...I was told stay out of pink, but kill the AV.
I asked, "I am melee, how can I do both?"
The answer, "Stand back and play blaster".
I said, "Play blaster, I am a tank? I have no ranged attacks" (And I meant besides vet powers because we were in iTrial)
The answer, "you dont have any ranged attacks at all? what were you doing 41-50?"
He told me he meant epic pools.
Now to me, this was beyond funny. But maybe I am the one that is the joke...is it generally expected (and the general practice) that tanks get ranged attacks 41-50? Can someone tell me I am not crazy? Or at least that I am?
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers