I have not been reading up on any upcoming changes to stalkers, but now I'm interested and definitely will.
As for this suggestion, I like it in principle, but I worry that scaling damage might make EBs/AVs a little too easy, especially for teams with more than one stalker present. Imagine if three or four of them fired off fully-buffed Assassin's Strikes on the same EB all at once. It's supposed to be a hard fight.
However, something similar to Vigilance, that scales the damage dealt by Assassin's Strike so it's at its highest when the stalker is solo and maybe "bottoms out" where it is now when he's on a team/league of 4 or more (for example) might solve that problem.
The stun (or maybe terrorize?) part I can definitely get behind.
Also, I know it's been brought up before, but Titan Weapons and momentum got me thinking about it again:
An alternate, non-interruptable, quicker-animation-but-lower-damage (and no stuns/fears/crits/etc) Assassin's Strike that fires when you're not hidden would go a long way, too. Hiding? Slow, drawn-out, measured killshot. Not hiding? Just hit them, dammit! (Maybe just use whatever scrapper attack got removed from the powerset to make room for AS/Placate.)
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
"a few hours coding"
lol
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Yeah Doctor Roswell. read the thread in Stalkers about the changes. One of your ideas is in there. But I actually am advocating doing more damage when stalkers are against EBs and AVs, on teams. I would even go so far as to say if a league of 20 or more Stalkers could simul AS a AV the thing should drop. period. PS, good luck getting that kinda coordination.
See, the problem with Stalkers, put eloquently by Angry Citizen in the Stalkers forum, is that they are not designed for the City of Heroes game. This is a game of massive fast action fighting where Aoe rules the day, or Controlling Mobs, or Taking all agro around you and laughing it off. Think about it, stalkers bring nothing to the table, nothing. They are on the teams because we need teammates, not because we want Stalkers. Also, most of us like the players, even if they choose to run the most worthless teammate created besides the shepherd. ouch, okay, thats too far. Sorry... anyways, there is absolutely no doubt Stalkers need a serious fix if they are gonna fit into the modern game. If the tweaks that I have read about in the Stalker Forum are implemented then Stalkers go from a completely gimped Scrapper with a neat trick that its better they just do solo, to a 3/4 gimped Scrapper. Yeah! They made 25% improvement! Cheer now! *holds up sign for applause.
Seriously, i was on a team last night that was dialed up too hard. People were struggling. I had just joined. I look at the leader, it's a Stalker. i couldn't help myself. in my mind I am thinking "theres a Stalker that cant level themselves so they are getting 7 of us like an MMs pet to level them." It's sad, but after years in the cities I just think of Stalkers as 2nd class supers. This fix is like giving them a bus pass. They need a new car dude.
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and the flames begin. sigh. |
Originally Posted by DarkGob
"a few hours coding"
lol |
Alright I'll give it a shot. Yes, from my description all you would need to do is code in an attack on Stalker in full Hide that provides x% against bosses, x% against EBs, and x% against AVs, with an unresistable stun, even when purp triangles are up. Sure, they would shake it off in a second (should be a very short stun) but thats just the biz.
So, that is my serious reply.
You want to explain why that is not a few hours coding, since it is just altering one power in 12 sets?
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Lol is that anecdote suppose to prove something? Because I've joined similar teams where the leaders were Controllers, Brutes, Tankers, Scrappers and the like. The team was struggling? Ever think the team was just not up to snuff? That the leader was some noob stalker, that must mean Stalkers are T3h suxxor?|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Seriously, i was on a team last night that was dialed up too hard. People were struggling. I had just joined. I look at the leader, it's a Stalker. i couldn't help myself. in my mind I am thinking "theres a Stalker that cant level themselves so they are getting 7 of us like an MMs pet to level them." It's sad, but after years in the cities I just think of Stalkers as 2nd class supers. This fix is like giving them a bus pass. They need a new car dude. |
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
and the flames begin. sigh.
Alright I'll give it a shot. Yes, from my description all you would need to do is code in an attack on Stalker in full Hide that provides x% against bosses, x% against EBs, and x% against AVs, with an unresistable stun, even when purp triangles are up. Sure, they would shake it off in a second (should be a very short stun) but thats just the biz. So, that is my serious reply. You want to explain why that is not a few hours coding, since it is just altering one power in 12 sets? |
Secondly, besides taking down the rare EB or AV at the end of a mission, this does nothing for the AT everywhere else.
Go back to the drawing board.
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When was adding a damage scalar for AS vs. Bosses, EBs and AVs tried before? Honestly I am curious.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
First of all, your idea was tried before. You'd have to make a case (and research) to get the devs to try the idea again.
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You know precisely nothing about what the actual code looks like. (Possibly you don't even know how actual programming works, but that's purely a guess and apologize if I'm mistaken.) You cannot make any definitive statement about how long it would take, nor are you aware of any potential side-effects the changes might have (the devs themselves might not even be aware; that's how bugs happen).|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
and the flames begin. sigh.
Alright I'll give it a shot. Yes, from my description all you would need to do is code in an attack on Stalker in full Hide that provides x% against bosses, x% against EBs, and x% against AVs, with an unresistable stun, even when purp triangles are up. Sure, they would shake it off in a second (should be a very short stun) but thats just the biz. So, that is my serious reply. You want to explain why that is not a few hours coding, since it is just altering one power in 12 sets? |
Make fewer definitive statements and qualify some stuff and then maybe your suggestion will merit some modicum of respect.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
When was adding a damage scalar for AS vs. Bosses, EBs and AVs tried before? Honestly I am curious.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Meh, these are tweaks and fixes (the HP cap was always a bug imo).
I'd like to see debuffs, like the one they added to AS. I'd like a higher chance for the AS Demoralize to go off, and, as much as this is only wishful thinking, having an assortment of debuffs like Rogue classes have in other games (poisoning weapons to give it different effects and the like).
Actually Bane spiders already do something like that - buffs the teams' defense, tohit and damage, debuff resistance, analyze enemy weakness with Surveillance...
AS damage scaling was tested sometime ago. Didn't work out, something about Stalkers ASing AVs and Hami and taking half their health, something along these lines that Castle couldn't work out a fix.
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It was proposed by Angry_Citizen and tested on beta. The devs ended up scrapping that and added to Stalker's base +HP, gave them inherent 10% criticals vs 20% criticals on held/slept foes and demoralize on hidden Assassin's Strike.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
When was adding a damage scalar for AS vs. Bosses, EBs and AVs tried before? Honestly I am curious.
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It certainly wouldn't take a few hours of coding because the testing required would be *daunting*. For one, scaled up EBs and AVs were screwing with the numbers. The amount of % dmg AS did was adjusted several times (some of it enhanceable by damage enhancements and not). The results were AS not being able to kill minions or Lts, being marginally better vs bosses, and Stalkers capable of soloing GMs in a matter of minutes.
Personally, I'm indifferent about the idea. I was always arguing with A_C about ideas to improve Stalkers and Assassin's Strike. But he's the one who had one of his ideas tested and I did not. I'd certainly had accepted the way Stalkers turned out with his idea but it was still ultimately deemed nonfunctional. It may have been possible, with more testing, it could have worked...
What I'm thinking:
1) Have the hidden strike be a solid 25% of the current enemy health. meaning if evemy has 500/1000 HP, the assasin stike damage would be for 125(25% of 500), not 250(25% of 1000). that way you can't get 4 stalkers together and go AV or GM farming.
2) have assasin stike give a good melee/ranged/AoE defense buff for the time it would take to go into hide again (10sec I believe)
3) There should be 2 options for the power when you take it(like DP swap ammo). the non assasin (has no interrupt and shorter animation )and the assasin (that would be the way it is currently), so it's not a waste of a power. Cause, in most cases it can only be used once per mob.
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So now my stalker can't even one-shot a minion? He can only take it down from 100% to 75%? Even if he's level 50 and the enemy is level 1?|
Originally Posted by Twigman
What I'm thinking:
1) Have the hidden strike be a solid 25% of the current enemy health. meaning if evemy has 500/1000 HP, the assasin stike damage would be for 125(25% of 500), not 250(25% of 1000). that way you can't get 4 stalkers together and go AV or GM farming. |
Even the current "gimped scrapper with a neat trick" lets him take down a +1 lieutenant before its friends know he's there...
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
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I actualy know very little about programming other than a course a very long time ago. I am pretty decent at college level mathematics and logic however. Angry Citizen defined the problem very well. A great first step. I think the Devs are trying to "Overthink" the math on the solution, based on what you have said. Leave most of AS alone. Just don't touch it. The power is not broken vs Lt and minions, and is probably okay to be left as is for Bosses for that matter. But we might as well include a performance increase against Bosses. When a Stalker does BU and AS against a Boss in hide, it should drop the fool. period. Except when it misses of course, sad panda. It seriously needs something against EBs and AVs. I do not know what formulas they were working with on Beta. 5 stalkers should not be able to Solo an AV in less than a minute. A solo Stalker should not be able to solo an AV. Currently a Stalker (generalizing here) is not as good as a Scrapper or Brute against an AV. I suggest they should be better. They are (or should be) the Kings of solo target damage. If you take what the Stalkers are doing now and modify it so that one of them can kill an AV solo, you did your math wrong. Just saying. I am talking about adding a percent tweak to what a stalker does against EBs and AVs or a Flat damage bonus that cannot be altered, buffed, debuffed. When a Stalker hits an EB or AV they do the Stalker damage they would normally do plus X. Make X smaller and unresistable in any way. wow, respect. a Stalker from hide can do 5% of an AVs health. Nice, then let them fight like the gimped Scrapper they are used to being, or take the time to get back into full hide. Just give them something. They look so sad. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
It was proposed by Angry_Citizen and tested on beta. The devs ended up scrapping that and added to Stalker's base +HP, gave them inherent 10% criticals vs 20% criticals on held/slept foes and demoralize on hidden Assassin's Strike.
It certainly wouldn't take a few hours of coding because the testing required would be *daunting*. For one, scaled up EBs and AVs were screwing with the numbers. The amount of % dmg AS did was adjusted several times (some of it enhanceable by damage enhancements and not). The results were AS not being able to kill minions or Lts, being marginally better vs bosses, and Stalkers capable of soloing GMs in a matter of minutes. Personally, I'm indifferent about the idea. I was always arguing with A_C about ideas to improve Stalkers and Assassin's Strike. But he's the one who had one of his ideas tested and I did not. I'd certainly had accepted the way Stalkers turned out with his idea but it was still ultimately deemed nonfunctional. It may have been possible, with more testing, it could have worked... |
PS, i am really disinterested in the whole discussion. In my 4 1/2 years in the city I have had maybe 12 stalkers created. one got to 32, one got to 26. I have 2 stalkers currently. One is 6th, the other is 1st, and mostly there to hold a name on a server. I honestly dont care if they buff stalkers to the moon, leave them alone, or shoot them in the foot. Just saying from a game balance perspective of watching them for 4 1/2 years they look like they could use a "trick". I could be very wrong. Thats my idea, thats about as much explanation as I have. GL.
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Nice that you agree with A_C and all(lol how many times have you said that now?) but again, this has been tried.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I actualy know very little about programming other than a course a very long time ago. I am pretty decent at college level mathematics and logic however. Angry Citizen defined the problem very well. A great first step. I think the Devs are trying to "Overthink" the math on the solution, based on what you have said. Leave most of AS alone. Just don't touch it. The power is not broken vs Lt and minions, and is probably okay to be left as is for Bosses for that matter. But we might as well include a performance increase against Bosses. When a Stalker does BU and AS against a Boss in hide, it should drop the fool. period. Except when it misses of course, sad panda. It seriously needs something against EBs and AVs. I do not know what formulas they were working with on Beta.
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The other issue of difficulty settings makes this more complicated than you think. Currently you can choose to face Bosses, EBs or AVs as a mission setting and if you choose to downgrade them, it affects their rank for some mobs but not all. In other words, the system currently borks who's a boss, EB or AV so trying to use that as a meter stick for your AS will not work.
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| PS, i am really disinterested in the whole discussion. In my 4 1/2 years in the city I have had maybe 12 stalkers created. one got to 32, one got to 26. I have 2 stalkers currently. One is 6th, the other is 1st, and mostly there to hold a name on a server. I honestly dont care if they buff stalkers to the moon, leave them alone, or shoot them in the foot. Just saying from a game balance perspective of watching them for 4 1/2 years they look like they could use a "trick". I could be very wrong. Thats my idea, thats about as much explanation as I have. GL. |
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Then why are you so certain about how long this change would take to code?????????????????????????????????????
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I actualy know very little about programming other than a course a very long time ago.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
/Thread
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Some times i wish i just stayed in bed
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
/Thread |
Some of my suggestions from posts i have done
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=195762&highlight=dbhellfist
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=278178&highlight=dbhellfist
Here is all My toons
http://img261.imagevenue.com/gallery...9625081-24.php
For a simple change to assassin's strike:
make it much faster to perform, eliminating most of the "charge up" part of it.
make it deal much less damage to begin with, keep its current cooldown.
Make it deal more damage from stealth.
thus, outside stealth it's as good as any other (of those first 4 powers) power, possibly slightly weaker.
inside stealth it's roughly equal to before, possibly slightly less powerful to account for the increase in sustained damage.
but most importantly: give some variance between sets for it. it's ok if one powerset has a slightly slower AS but adds a small debuff to the enemy to make it worth it. experiment a bit while it's on the beta server. have a little fun with it, you never know how cool and unique you can make it.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
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For the most part this is already getting done.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
For a simple change to assassin's strike:
make it much faster to perform, eliminating most of the "charge up" part of it. make it deal much less damage to begin with, keep its current cooldown. Make it deal more damage from stealth. thus, outside stealth it's as good as any other (of those first 4 powers) power, possibly slightly weaker. inside stealth it's roughly equal to before, possibly slightly less powerful to account for the increase in sustained damage. but most importantly: give some variance between sets for it. it's ok if one powerset has a slightly slower AS but adds a small debuff to the enemy to make it worth it. experiment a bit while it's on the beta server. have a little fun with it, you never know how cool and unique you can make it. |
AS will be usable outside of Hide without having an interrupt period, but will only do base damage (no hidden critical), then other stalker attacks will give you a buff that increases Assassin's Strike's chance of scoring a (Standard) critical hit.
Faster use for base damage outside of Hidden state, retains massive damage from Hide.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Should note that the damage to Assassin's Strike outside of Hide will be changed to superior damage (before, it's moderate damage outside of Hide) so it will become a powerful attack on its own, and each buff (Assassin's Focus) adds 33.3% chance of crit (so after three buffs, you're at 99.9% chance of doing critical damage with Assassin's Strike outside of Hide).|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
For the most part this is already getting done.
AS will be usable outside of Hide without having an interrupt period, but will only do base damage (no hidden critical), then other stalker attacks will give you a buff that increases Assassin's Strike's chance of scoring a (Standard) critical hit. Faster use for base damage outside of Hidden state, retains massive damage from Hide. |
The only complaint I have about the upcoming Stalker change is that they're leaving it until issue 22. BLARGH I WANT IT NAO PLZ
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Arc: 60092 - Supa Rumble in the Park
"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Oh, and add a danged stun to the AS for these hard targets. Cause it should be very surpising to almost get assassinated. Even with purple triangles up.
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Did... did you just ask for a Mag 54 stun?
Leaving everything else aside, that you're actually asking for a Stun that can break through purple triangles is a bit much.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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The ASSASIN strike aspect of the damage, NOT all the damage. it would still do the primary damage as if you weren't in hide.
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Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
So now my stalker can't even one-shot a minion? He can only take it down from 100% to 75%? Even if he's level 50 and the enemy is level 1?
Even the current "gimped scrapper with a neat trick" lets him take down a +1 lieutenant before its friends know he's there... |
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The Primary damage isn't all that much. Not nearly what an Assassin's Strike from hide on a nasty minion - say a Sapper - can do. Assassin's Strike as a percentage damage power was tried, tested and subsequently rejected. It makes the power worthless for minions and it adds help in precisely the places where Stalkers already do well anyway.
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Originally Posted by Twigman
The ASSASIN strike aspect of the damage, NOT all the damage. it would still do the primary damage as if you weren't in hide.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm the OP on this one. Just wanted to clarify my idea. It is slightly modified by a few things I've read here, and something in a Tank thread.
But basically I am advocating a straight buff to stalker Assassin Strike damage, only while in hide. Also, the AS power is unaffected, and unchanged vs Lt and minions. It works fine there, so why even start to change that? Against Boss, Elite Boss, and Arch Villain I am advocating a damage buff for AS in hide. The more I read about how this has been tried in Beta and 1 stalker killed 14 AVs in 2 minutes but couldn't kill a minion...(yes, please get sarcasm, that is complete hyperbole) the more I am thinking a straight unalterable damage buff should be added. Not sure what that number should be, it should definitely be different for each class of mob. again, no change for minion or Lt. The trick is not to get wrapped up in complicated game mechanics formulas. They will get played by gamers, Master badge Hunters, and min-maxers until red looks green. Just look what needs to be done to buff the Stalker vs those 3 classes, and give them that exact buff. Let them apply outside buffs, enhancement buffs, set buffs, to the AS, just like now. Then an unalterable bonus smackage vs those tough 3, but only in complete hide. No go for placate. I say no to placate because that way there is a definite cap on how often a Stalker can gobsmack an AV. They gotta get away from agro and fully hide and get set up again. Be beautiful at the end of the BAF when the AVs are not quite matched and the Stalker who has been waiting waltzes in and does 3-5% finishing blow to ensure they drop at the same time. And yeah, I know that means a 20 stalker League could theoretically solo an AV in one pop. Funny huh? Oh, right, add Giant Monsters to the list I guess. Can you see a 30 team league of Stalkers drop Scrappy in 5 seconds? I am laughing at the thought of it, but it aint a bad thing. If you can get 20-30 Stalkers to all AS at the exact same time you deserve those 2 merits. gratz.
I have been reading about upcoming changes in the Stalker area. I never see anybody over there, but stuff always gets moved around, it's weird. Anyways here is my 2 Inf:
I would suggest a much simpler solution for Stalkers than I have seen. a damage scalar on Assasin's Strike. just the full one in hide. Have it scale to the Enemy. So a fully buffed AS could level an Boss, any Boss, easily. A buffed AS could leave any EB wobbling and clean some of them. And a buffed AS could actually make a gnarly tick on an AVs health bar. Oh, and add a danged stun to the AS for these hard targets. Cause it should be very surpising to almost get assassinated. Even with purple triangles up. There, then Stalkers would get some respect. And it could be done with a few hours coding, not changing the whole game.