My Suggestions to leaders of iTrials


Amygdala

 

Posted

Something has really struck me hard that I want to share about all the iTrials (with the exception of probably BAF and Lambda). All 4 iTrials that are newer seem to have a similar problem--There are those that know how to do it and those that don't. It seems every team I am on, I hear a lot of things like, "If you don't know how to such and such, let someone who knows how". The problem is, some of the newer things in iTrials are hard to explain, but the newer players are not learning how to do it. For example, in Keyes, newer players (to the trials) are supposed to stay and fight Walkers. They never get to go up and experience because they don't know.

I know, I know, people are just trying to get through and not fail. All I am suggesting/asking is that those of us who lead many trials, we give more instructions so that over time more players are clear on what to do, and trials are that much easier.


Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers

 

Posted

I fully agree that it the responsibility of the leader to teach those new to trials what to do. I am not saying hold someone's hand through the whole thing, but at least explain why something is being done. If you, as a leader, want to have the same select group of people handle all of the terminals, that's understandable. Just explain to the rest of the new people why it is more efficient that way

If it is a quicker trial, such as Keyes or TPN, I give a full rundown prior to the trial. I tell anyone who has run it before and doesn't need the instruction to use that time for a bio. On a trial such as the Underground, I try to give highlights of the particularly challenging parts (such as the Regenerating War Walker and his reincarnation), and then just ask for minimal chatter during the trial, so that instructions are clearly visible.


@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.

 

Posted

Exactly. There is no way someone brand new to Keyes will understand, but at least letting them know what is happening is helpful. Then when it is time for them to try it, they have heard it a few times and are not completely lost.

My first TPN ALL I heard was, "ST only, ST only",but they didn't say what we were doing, so I just tried not to screw up. Luckily I had read the wiki beforehand so I knew a little about what was going. I wasn't the only new one there (I made sure to kindly tell them). BOY it was a whirlwind.


Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers

 

Posted

I almost always ask the following question before starting a trial: "Is there anyone who hasn't done this before?"

The way people respond tells me a lot about the level of understanding the league has. I will then adjust according to the league. If there are a lot of people who claim to be new, I'll go over the trial in greater detail before we start and reiterate certain things as they become relevant during the trial. If there are only a couple people that are new, I'll go over the most important points before the trial starts and explain the rest as we go. Sometimes I'll also offer to explain the trial in more detail if people still have questions after we're finished. If everyone says they've done it before, I'll usually just hit the high points as we go so that we can get started faster.

Sometimes I get people who tell me that this is their first trial ever. At that point, I'll even go over things like how to add League Chat, how to open your League UI, where the hospital is, the fact that you can buy inspirations there, how to rejoin if you DC, etc.



Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaggy5 View Post
Something has really struck me hard that I want to share about all the iTrials (with the exception of probably BAF and Lambda). All 4 iTrials that are newer seem to have a similar problem--There are those that know how to do it and those that don't. It seems every team I am on, I hear a lot of things like, "If you don't know how to such and such, let someone who knows how". The problem is, some of the newer things in iTrials are hard to explain, but the newer players are not learning how to do it. For example, in Keyes, newer players (to the trials) are supposed to stay and fight Walkers. They never get to go up and experience because they don't know.

I know, I know, people are just trying to get through and not fail. All I am suggesting/asking is that those of us who lead many trials, we give more instructions so that over time more players are clear on what to do, and trials are that much easier.
Here's my advice to leaders of the BAF: When you get to the prisoner phase, don't just say 'Cover the choke points.' and then when someone says 'need some more north pls' respond with 'more north please', because unless you've got a team of telepaths playing, nobody knows who you're talking to, so either everyone goes north or nobody does.

"Team 1 and 2 south, team 3 north' is all it takes, for the most part.

Eco


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amygdala View Post
I almost always ask the following question before starting a trial: "Is there anyone who hasn't done this before?"

The way people respond tells me a lot about the level of understanding the league has. I will then adjust according to the league. If there are a lot of people who claim to be new, I'll go over the trial in greater detail before we start and reiterate certain things as they become relevant during the trial. If there are only a couple people that are new, I'll go over the most important points before the trial starts and explain the rest as we go. Sometimes I'll also offer to explain the trial in more detail if people still have questions after we're finished. If everyone says they've done it before, I'll usually just hit the high points as we go so that we can get started faster.

Sometimes I get people who tell me that this is their first trial ever. At that point, I'll even go over things like how to add League Chat, how to open your League UI, where the hospital is, the fact that you can buy inspirations there, how to rejoin if you DC, etc.
I wish more leaders were like you. Trials would be a lot smoother.


Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers

 

Posted

If I have someone whose first time it is in Keyes, I'll explain the process and then /tell them that if they want, they can just keep back and watch what I do until they get the hang of where everything is and where it goes. I think it helps a lot.


"The Hamidon is a what what of what?" - Brian the mission guy.

 

Posted

I have this issue with Keyes. Done it successfully plenty of times, but I'm on the noob time, so not 100% clear on what is happening everywhere else. I've read on it, so I have a theoretical knowledge of how things work, but details are hazy as I've never been able to see them in action.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan View Post
Here's my advice to leaders of the BAF: When you get to the prisoner phase, don't just say 'Cover the choke points.' and then when someone says 'need some more north pls' respond with 'more north please', because unless you've got a team of telepaths playing, nobody knows who you're talking to, so either everyone goes north or nobody does.

"Team 1 and 2 south, team 3 north' is all it takes, for the most part.

Eco
I still have no idea exactly what or where the choke points are after all these times running it. I just follow my team and start setting people on fire.


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Posted

See--these last two comments are exactly why I posted. Yes, it takes more time to explain/let people experience it, but in the long-term enjoyment/success of trials, it seems worth it to inch them forward at least a little. The focus doesn't need to be new people, but get them closer..!


Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niklarus View Post
I still have no idea exactly what or where the choke points are after all these times running it. I just follow my team and start setting people on fire.
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------------
I've led BAF/Lambda/Keyes to success more often than they've failed. However, even on those recently I've found that more players aren't even paying attention to any instruction to the point where all three have failed due to some serious "what the hell is wrong with you people" moments.

I've -tried- to lead Underground. However if a few people don't bother to listen to the instructions, the trial fails.

TPN & MoM are even worse than the Underground for people messing up the trial.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

Posted

Leaders should explain their plans carefully.

"Can you use your methods in giving some kind of training to a group of women?" "Of course, Your Majesty," answered Sun Tzu. But he continued, "Military training is hard and strenuous work. An army must be subject to military law which should be severe and from which no one can be exempt. In military drills, everyone is expected to obey the rules and regulations or he will be punished. " To this, the king assented. Then he ordered that one hundred and eighty pretty young maidens be selected from among the palace maids to receive military training under Sun Tzu who divided the girls into two companies and made two of the king's most favorite concubines their commanders. Sun Tzu then said to the king, "A good army cannot be built without strict discipline. Although those girls are palace maids, discipline must be enforced without exception. So please send me two soldiers to enforce military law. " The king consented.

The drills soon began. Sun Tzu first made known the rules and regulations to be obeyed and then explained to the maidens how to execute such commands as "March on!", "Fall back!", "Left face!", "Right face!", "Kneel down!", "Stand up!" and so on. After he was finished with this, he asked the ranks, "Is it all clear now?" "Aye, Aye," the girls replied. But Sun Tzu explained the rules and regulations once again and then had the drummers beat out martial music. At this, he shouted commands such as "Left face! " and "Right face! " Instead of carrying out his commands, the maids started giggling. Sun Tzu said, turning very serious, "It apparently is my fault not to have made the rules and regulations and commands plain enough. " So he reiterated what he had said before, explaining very carefully the rules and regulations and the way to carry out the commands. After that he once again had the drummers beat out martial music and started giving commands. However, he met with only rings of laughter. Now Sun Tzu looked very stern and said seriously, "If I had not made sufficiently clear the discipline and the commands, it would be my fault. Now that everything has been made clear and still you have failed to execute my orders, the company commanders must be held responsible. " He ordered that the two company commanders be beheaded immediately in public, as a warning to all. . . .

When the two were beheaded in public, Sun Tzu selected two others as commanders and resumed the drills. Now, no matter what commands he gave, they were carried out in a most punctilious manner, the actions orderly and precise.

Sun Tzu, The Art of War.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
I've led BAF/Lambda/Keyes to success more often than they've failed. However, even on those recently I've found that more players aren't even paying attention to any instruction to the point where all three have failed due to some serious "what the hell is wrong with you people" moments.

I've -tried- to lead Underground. However if a few people don't bother to listen to the instructions, the trial fails.

TPN & MoM are even worse than the Underground for people messing up the trial.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan View Post

"Team 1 and 2 south, team 3 north' is all it takes, for the most part.
This.

I am not a leader, but I know what helps me be a good follower/teammate.
One of the things that drives me nuts is vague instructions.

Short and specific instructions please.

Instructions that are short but NOT helpful:
  • Follow the tank (which friggin' tank?!)
  • Get the computers/glowies (who? where?)
  • Use your temp powers (how/when did I get a temp? use on what?)
and so on....

Yes, those are short instructions, but they lack specifics... usually simple things that would make them more clear.

Of course there is also the opposite spectrum. I find that the longwinded explanations at the beginning of a trial are just as confusing and unhelpful. There is no way in hell I'm going to remember all that crap once all the action starts.

Keep these descriptions short and to the point, please. A brief (1 or 2 sentence) description of each phase's objectives should suffice.
When you move on from one phase to another, REPEAT the objectives for the next phase at that time. Please.

Macro or Menu your instructions, so you can repeat things that invariably need repeating.

Please use Request. The purple lettering stands out.
Personally, I have Request in it's very own window, just for that purpose.

Like I said, I'm generally a follower/teammate. I want to help. I want to feel useful. I want to know what the objective is so that I can do my part in accomplishing it.

.


Quote:
Don�t say things.
What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
Leaders should explain their plans carefully.

"Can you use your methods in giving some kind of training to a group of women?" "Of course, Your Majesty," answered Sun Tzu. But he continued, "Military training is hard and strenuous work. An army must be subject to military law which should be severe and from which no one can be exempt. In military drills, everyone is expected to obey the rules and regulations or he will be punished. " To this, the king assented. Then he ordered that one hundred and eighty pretty young maidens be selected from among the palace maids to receive military training under Sun Tzu who divided the girls into two companies and made two of the king's most favorite concubines their commanders. Sun Tzu then said to the king, "A good army cannot be built without strict discipline. Although those girls are palace maids, discipline must be enforced without exception. So please send me two soldiers to enforce military law. " The king consented.

The drills soon began. Sun Tzu first made known the rules and regulations to be obeyed and then explained to the maidens how to execute such commands as "March on!", "Fall back!", "Left face!", "Right face!", "Kneel down!", "Stand up!" and so on. After he was finished with this, he asked the ranks, "Is it all clear now?" "Aye, Aye," the girls replied. But Sun Tzu explained the rules and regulations once again and then had the drummers beat out martial music. At this, he shouted commands such as "Left face! " and "Right face! " Instead of carrying out his commands, the maids started giggling. Sun Tzu said, turning very serious, "It apparently is my fault not to have made the rules and regulations and commands plain enough. " So he reiterated what he had said before, explaining very carefully the rules and regulations and the way to carry out the commands. After that he once again had the drummers beat out martial music and started giving commands. However, he met with only rings of laughter. Now Sun Tzu looked very stern and said seriously, "If I had not made sufficiently clear the discipline and the commands, it would be my fault. Now that everything has been made clear and still you have failed to execute my orders, the company commanders must be held responsible. " He ordered that the two company commanders be beheaded immediately in public, as a warning to all. . . .

When the two were beheaded in public, Sun Tzu selected two others as commanders and resumed the drills. Now, no matter what commands he gave, they were carried out in a most punctilious manner, the actions orderly and precise.

Sun Tzu, The Art of War.
That makes me wish I could execute other player's characters. Permanently.




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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
When the two were beheaded in public, Sun Tzu selected two others as commanders and resumed the drills.
Uh, Flea, I don't wanna be on your league!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiramourning View Post
Uh, Flea, I don't wanna be on your league!
Indeed! This is a videogame, not a boot camp.

If league leaders can't deal with herding cats all the time, then maybe they should stop being league leaders.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
Indeed! This is a videogame, not a boot camp.

If league leaders can't deal with herding cats all the time, then maybe they should stop being league leaders.
Or better yet, make the trials doable by cats, without having to specially train them before hand.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader View Post
Or better yet, make the trials doable by cats, without having to specially train them before hand.
Actually, I think there should be a "Cat Herder" badge for so many hours of leading a league.


 

Posted

What? Sun Tzu was a genius!


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
Actually, I think there should be a "Cat Herder" badge for so many hours of leading a league.
This would be co-- ... HEY!!

.


Quote:
Don�t say things.
What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson
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Posted

Quote:
"Can you use your methods in giving some kind of training to a group of women?" "Of course, Your Majesty," answered Sun Tzu. But he continued, "Military training is hard and strenuous work. An army must be subject to military law which should be severe and from which no one can be exempt. In military drills, everyone is expected to obey the rules and regulations or he will be punished. " To this, the king assented. Then he ordered that one hundred and eighty pretty young maidens be selected from among the palace maids to receive military training under Sun Tzu who divided the girls into two companies and made two of the king's most favorite concubines their commanders. Sun Tzu then said to the king, "A good army cannot be built without strict discipline. Although those girls are palace maids, discipline must be enforced without exception. So please send me two soldiers to enforce military law. " The king consented.

The drills soon began. Sun Tzu first made known the rules and regulations to be obeyed and then explained to the maidens how to execute such commands as "March on!", "Fall back!", "Left face!", "Right face!", "Kneel down!", "Stand up!" and so on. After he was finished with this, he asked the ranks, "Is it all clear now?" "Aye, Aye," the girls replied. But Sun Tzu explained the rules and regulations once again and then had the drummers beat out martial music. At this, he shouted commands such as "Left face! " and "Right face! " Instead of carrying out his commands, the maids started giggling. Sun Tzu said, turning very serious, "It apparently is my fault not to have made the rules and regulations and commands plain enough. " So he reiterated what he had said before, explaining very carefully the rules and regulations and the way to carry out the commands. After that he once again had the drummers beat out martial music and started giving commands. However, he met with only rings of laughter. Now Sun Tzu looked very stern and said seriously, "If I had not made sufficiently clear the discipline and the commands, it would be my fault. Now that everything has been made clear and still you have failed to execute my orders, the company commanders must be held responsible. " He ordered that the two company commanders be beheaded immediately in public, as a warning to all.
cool story bro


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Posted

One specific thing about Lambda is that instead of saying just "acids" and "grenades" it is helpful for leaders to say or add "East door" and "North doors," because the only way you would know which is which is if you already played the trial a bunch of times.



Quote:
I've led BAF/Lambda/Keyes to success more often than they've failed. However, even on those recently I've found that more players aren't even paying attention to any instruction to the point where all three have failed due to some serious "what the hell is wrong with you people" moments.
I just failed a Lambda in similar circumstances.

You couldn't pay me real life money to lead a UG, MoM, or TPN. Those trials are, IMO, complete disasters in most respects. UG with its "this effect will kill everyone around player who doesn't know what's going on, except there is no way for teammates to see it" deserves a special prize. And even Keyes, post nerf, still has some really frustrating elements (why you can't you see who is being Disintegrated in the event window when that is the main thing that would cause you to fail???)


 

Posted

I just did my first MoM. First thing the leader did was saying 'if you need help, please say now'. I said 'I never did this'.

He explained it to me nicely and succinctly, I didn't even die.

It was very nice because I've done about 5 successful Keyes (never failed one) but I'll have to read up because I had no idea what was going on, on any of these (and 3 of them were when they were 'harder' - I don't even know what changed, nobody would explain the trial to me even though I asked).

OTOH I see Snow Globe's point, people sometimes don't even read obvious things. Like, Lambda. Done plenty of them, failed only once, but almost EVERY time I see that text 'MARAUDER WILL USE THE NOVA FIST BACK AWAY' (quite obvious right?) I back away and I fully expect 5-8 players to die at least, and it goes like that every. Single. Time.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiramourning View Post
Uh, Flea, I don't wanna be on your league!
I think Indira was joking, but for those who may have taken it seriously -- the moral of the Sun Tzu story is that it is up to leaders to explain the rules carefully. If they don't explain their plans carefully it's not the other players' faults. However, if the leader does explain things carefully and a player still can't follow the instructions then they should be kicked or not invited to future runs.

I have lead dozens of the various trials, 90+% of them successfully. In all of those runs, I have kicked one and refused to invite another. Not a bad record. I'll leave it to others to say whether or not they have fun.


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