Guns for non-squishies?
Now that both Titan Weapons and Staff Fighting are giving Melee ATs sets with a larger range (I think 9 feet?) I think it's fair to revisit a Dual Pistols melee set. Sure, superheroes can fire pistols accurately from 80' away at moving targets with 95% accuracy, but in the real world, using pistols between point blank and 15 feet is common and deadliest (with point blank to 6 feet comprising 81% of the deadly encounters in that article), so there's nothing silly about the idea.
There is also nothing unbalancing about a Pistols set for Melee characters as long as they don't get more range than Titan Weapons, Staff Fighting, Spines, or Claws (unless, of course, you feel those sets are already broken).
That being said, the only reason I want such a set is to pair Dual Pistols with powers like SR, Regen, or Invulnerability. There are a lot of concepts to be explored there, and there's plenty of precedent in the superhero genre. If they gave us a Range/Defense AT that had lower damage and lower defense, that would fit the bill too, though I'd personally like to be up close and shoot the bad guys in the face.
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I still want a DP/SR character. Or an Energy/Invul ranged character. Heck, Fire Blast/Fire Armour?
I really find the lack of those options to be a real pain at times.
And, please, lets not insult anyone's intelligence by knee-jerk screaming 'tank-mage'. EATs already have Ranged/Armour powers, and are not tank mages. The Devs do know how to balance stuff in this game.
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Yeah, VEATs are pretty hardcore. Like I said, the tradeoff is that you have to deal with the Arachnos motif, and that gets up a lot of peoples' noses. I think I've seen more people say that they'd play a Crab if only you didn't have to have the stupid backpack than I've seen actual VEATs.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I've actually run into this same problem when I was trying to create a custom class for a D&D setting. The class since got abandoned, but I kept a lot of the principles in mind.
See the thing about combat in this game, or in most RPG's for that matter, is that 80% of the damage in any given encounter is going to be focused in an area around the tank. It's an area I like to refer to as the "killball", the area in which most attacks in any given game are going to be focused. Generally, the squishier you are, the farther from the killball you want to be. That's the principle under which blasters operate. They can deal a ton of damage without having to directly expose themselves to the killbal around the tank. Scrappers, stalkers, and tanks need the protection because in order to deal damage, they need to fight inside of the killball.
Now once you start giving the melee classes ranged attacks, one of two things happen though. Either A: They run into melee and used the ranged attacks point blank, in which case why bother giving them ranged attacks in the first place. Or B: They hang back and use their ranged attacks at range, thus drawing fire, but weathering most of it due to their defenses and never entering into the killball. So is it possible to make a tough character that still heavily relies on ranged attacks at all?
I think it is, but I don't think it would work in this game, just because of how combat operates. What I think you would need to do is create a set of abilities that would still encourage players to stay near them, even though they are doing most of their fighting at arm's length. Now I'm not necessarily sure this sort of approach would lend itself to speedy ranged characters. I don't think it's possible to balance a character that's fast, tough, and able to fight at range, but you could make it work with big slow lugs. For example, in my D&D game, I tried to balance the character around the weapon they would be using, a minigun (yes, my D&D setting has technomagical miniguns. It also has Jet Dragons and Star-God mecha, pretty much a 12 year old's imagination on overdrive).
Now the minigun did a lot of damage, and had a built in knockback effect allowing them to keep foes pushed back, but the problem was this meant the other players never needed to expose themselves to danger. Yes, there was a "killball" forming around the tank, but they never needed to enter into it, because the enemies weren't in there. So the solution I tried was to grant buffs to players who stood around the tank, thus keeping them in the line of fire. You could easily conceptualize this as the "big guy" wading down a corridor, minigun blasting, soaking up shots, as everyone else leans out from behind him and takes potshots. But even then, the tank by himself was too powerful. Most enemies dealt their damage in melee, and since he had high defenses and the ability to keep foes in ranged, he never got hit. So I tried to rectify this by giving the tank lower defenses than usual, unless he had allies huddled around him.
That way, the killball was still centered on him, players were still encouraged to enter it, and ranged types could still hang back. Now like I said before, I don't think this would work in City of Heroes. Yeah, you could build a powerset around it, but it's such a radically different style of play that I don't really think it would have any place in the game, unless the entire game was rewritten around it.
I'm stealing that killball concept. Don't make me mug you for it.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
A certain licensced MMORPG has been trying out ranged tanks. I have no idea how it works though.
The easiest way would probably be to give a guns (and Archery for that matter) APP. Scrapper and Tanker APP's are pretty much just a small ranged attack chain already. The only reason I can think of for them not having done so alrady would be redraw, actually.
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�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
So, here's something of thought experiment: Is it even possible to come up with a concept of a character that could work in this game who wields a gun of any kind whatsoever (pistol, rifle, shotgun, whatever), yet isn't tied to Arachnos and isn't designed to be weak defensively? What might that look like? How might it happen? Would just putting guns in the Epics of non-squishy ATs work, or would we need more?
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If there was ever going to be added a new AT, that'd get my vote.
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I'm 100% supportive of the idea of DP scrappers, but I would also hope that they are somewhat "hybrid" in terms of animations to justify it and make it a more visually diverse set. More like gun-fu, rather than "dual pistols but with melee range".
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I'm all for a ranged/defense powerset. People just assume without evidence that it'll be overpowered without really looking at how little safety range provides in this game. The idea that ranged characters have to be squishy sidekicks dependent on melees to babysit them is yet another of those great, stupid MMO/wargaming tropes that have found its way into CoH.
In the meantime, look into taking something like time manip or traps (only as long as you can stay under the FF generator) - they can be pretty tough once they get to midlevel or so.
I still believe there is merit in looking into Assault Powersets for other archetype, if people are so worried about defense/defense ATs becoming overpowered with ranged abilities then use the sole fact that Assault contains a MIXTURE of melee and ranged attacks for the win!
The melee attacks could be the one with the most mitigration via secondary effects whilst the ranged ones would be to a lesser extent. It means melee types can't be all-range right away and still go with their strengths. It also means that the ranged types now get to do their cool close-range attacks.
Even if you have to change the ratio of attacks so the melee types get four ranged attacks out of nine, and ranged get four melee attacks per nine. It could be a conceptual boost to many, many ATs.
Trouble is, is it feasible to grant other archetypes the Assault powerset in after so many years of being labeled 'melee' and 'range'?
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I'm still hoping for a support/melee archtype one day more then anything. I always wanted to use Support moves like defenders and have like the assult powers of a dom. Sounds OP but the devs have shown us they know how to tweak the numbers.
With both sides no longer exclusive, I honestly think there is little excuse not to be looking at potential new ATs.
Note New ATs, though. Dual Pistols on a Scrapper is still a terribad idea, except as an Epic Pool. Pistols are for *shooting* people with. Yes, they are shorter ranged than other firearms, but they are still RANGED weapons. You do not scrap with them.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Note New ATs, though. Dual Pistols on a Scrapper is still a terribad idea, except as an Epic Pool. Pistols are for *shooting* people with. Yes, they are shorter ranged than other firearms, but they are still RANGED weapons. You do not scrap with them.
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Idea 1: Pistol Scrappers get an inherent 7-12ft aura. The attacks for the set do sub-par damage but get large amounts of bonus damage to enemies that are within their aura effect. Essentially, you could use your attacks over great range, but you'd be dealing poor damage unless you got them in your kill zone.
Idea 2: Use Idea 1, but your attacks do different animations (as well as extra damage) against those effected by your aura. So you could use a combo of pistol and sword or pistol and kung fu on the same attack, if the enemy is close enough. Otherwise you'd just shoot them (for much less damage)
The aura thing would only work properly if the game could determine that its your personal aura and not one from some other pistols user. The animation thing could work only if Titan weapon-style animation swaps can do done based on the status of the target rather than the status of the originator. Or, who knows, maybe somewhere the engine does have the ability to have range effect damage.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
I still want a DP/SR character. Or an Energy/Invul ranged character. Heck, Fire Blast/Fire Armour?
I really find the lack of those options to be a real pain at times. And, please, lets not insult anyone's intelligence by knee-jerk screaming 'tank-mage'. EATs already have Ranged/Armour powers, and are not tank mages. The Devs do know how to balance stuff in this game. |
Yep, this is the point I always make. If VEATs can have ranged attacks, defenses, and status protection (or FF, traps, and sonic def/corr builds), then the cries of 'tank mage' are obviously bunk. If the oh so menacing 'tank mage' were so over the top, people would be swarming the mentioned builds. They are not.
A ranged/armor or assault/armor AT would not be over the top. It would just have to be balanced correctly, and the fact that examples already exist means it can be done.
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Yep, this is the point I always make. If VEATs can have ranged attacks, defenses, and status protection (or FF, traps, and sonic def/corr builds), then the cries of 'tank mage' are obviously bunk. If the oh so menacing 'tank mage' were so over the top, people would be swarming the mentioned builds. They are not.
A ranged/armor or assault/armor AT would not be over the top. It would just have to be balanced correctly, and the fact that examples already exist means it can be done. |
They just can't shove it in one of the existing ATs.
Although, I wouldn't mind seeing them add a Praetorian Epic AT....
Hey Sam, I have a Dual Pistols / Time manipulation corruptor who is pretty close to a scrapper. Soft-capped defense to all positions, and a huge -tohit debuff on anything within 25 feet make her a monster.
I conceptually wanted a pistol scrapper, and this is pretty close (or at least as close as we're going to get without a melee set).
Toss me a PM if you want my build so I don't clutter this thread.
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Yeah, but the point is, they'd have to make an entirely new AT for it, which takes a while, and depending on what they already have in the project development pipeline, means that even if it's asked for now, it could be six months to a year before we see it.
They just can't shove it in one of the existing ATs. Although, I wouldn't mind seeing them add a Praetorian Epic AT.... |
As for a Praetorian EAT, I think they need to flesh out enough Praetorian content for the whole level range first. First Ward seems to merely be a start. The game could use more 30-40 content anyway. We've got 20-30 content to the gills.
Too many alts to list.
Yeah, but the point is, they'd have to make an entirely new AT for it, which takes a while, and depending on what they already have in the project development pipeline, means that even if it's asked for now, it could be six months to a year before we see it.
They just can't shove it in one of the existing ATs. Although, I wouldn't mind seeing them add a Praetorian Epic AT.... |
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Now once you start giving the melee classes ranged attacks, one of two things happen though. Either A: They run into melee and used the ranged attacks point blank, in which case why bother giving them ranged attacks in the first place...
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In almost every shooter game that gives me the ability to do so, I always pick the weapons which sacrifice the most range for the most power and bumrush or flank my enemies. In battlefield 2142, I always played Assault with a secondary shotgun as opposed to he much more popular rockets. In Saints Row, I always picked the auto shotgun over the rifle or the machinegun when given the choice.
In essence, I want firearms more than anything else. More specifically, I want firearms more than I actually want ranged attacks.
You could easily conceptualize this as the "big guy" wading down a corridor, minigun blasting, soaking up shots, as everyone else leans out from behind him and takes potshots.
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Hell, the game even has characters a lot like that - Crey Eliminators. These guys are clad in power armour and armed with a minigun!
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
But even then, the tank by himself was too powerful. Most enemies dealt their damage in melee, and since he had high defenses and the ability to keep foes in ranged, he never got hit.
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Again, pick your shooter game of choice and note that most of your most dangerous enemies are dangerous at range. Hell, not all shooter game enemies even HAVE melee attacks of any kind. In quite a few, the player is the most dangerous thing to encounter in melee, which is (diametrically opposite to our game) is balanced by the difficulty and danger of GETTING to melee with enemies shooting at you in a pack from a fortified position. Most shooters treat getting close to your enemies as an advantage and staying at range as a disadvantage, is what I'm saying.
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Years ago, I spoke about a sliding scale of damage, where attacking in melee would actually debuff the damage of your melee attacks but buff the damage of your ranged attacks while attacking at ranged would do burn through that buff, debuff your ranged attacks back down and buff melee attacks back up. Couple this with an Invincibility-style buff which debuffs your ranged attacks and buffs your melee ones when you are surrounded by enemies, but does the reverse when you are not, and you have a system which rewards the player for both using his melee attacks in a big melee and his ranged attacks at range, while also rewards the player for swapping between the ranges.
Years ago, Castle told me this was impossible to do as the system simply didn't support it. With Swap Ammo's ability to toggle effects on and off based on a buff and Titan Weapons' ability to swap entire attacks based on the state of a status flag, I think this is should be entirely mechanically possible. Hell, the Stalker changes are more or less exactly this - you get a bonus to Assassin's Strike for scrapping as opposed to running away, but you get a bonus to your hidden status if you do.
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Hey Sam, I have a Dual Pistols / Time manipulation corruptor who is pretty close to a scrapper. Soft-capped defense to all positions, and a huge -tohit debuff on anything within 25 feet make her a monster.
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*edit*
I also don't own Beam Rifle yet
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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With both sides no longer exclusive, I honestly think there is little excuse not to be looking at potential new ATs.
Note New ATs, though. Dual Pistols on a Scrapper is still a terribad idea, except as an Epic Pool. Pistols are for *shooting* people with. Yes, they are shorter ranged than other firearms, but they are still RANGED weapons. You do not scrap with them. |
The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979. In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 38% 3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5% 7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4% In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 28% 3 yards to 7 yards .... 11% 7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2% |
Please stop acting like close quarters gunfighting is silly. It's realistic. That doesn't mean we can't have characters with 95% accuracy rates when firing from 80 feet away in our superhero game, but it does mean that we can have people that need to be within 3 yards to be accurate (which in this game means used at all-- like how Executioner's Shot has a shorter range than other shots).
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Originally Posted by Liquid;4021969Please stop acting like close quarters gunfighting is silly. It's [i
realistic[/i]. That doesn't mean we can't have characters with 95% accuracy rates when firing from 80 feet away in our superhero game, but it does mean that we can have people that need to be within 3 yards to be accurate (which in this game means used at all-- like how Executioner's Shot has a shorter range than other shots).
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I'm honestly not sure what a good solution would be. I just know I want to use guns on a character who's not fragile by design. I'm not sure how that could happen in this game, but I keep wanting to see it
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm honestly not sure what a good solution would be. I just know I want to use guns on a character who's not fragile by design. I'm not sure how that could happen in this game, but I keep wanting to see it
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I have to say, I really like the idea of making them power pools(ancillary pools come way way too late even at 35) though, just so everybody can have short set of weapon options. Though, in these sorts of cases, I wouldn't say no to a bunch of weapon melee focused power pools to fill out the other end of the spectrum for folks that don't mind squishy characters.
I dunno, I mean I just threw these together for the most part and can see a few problems with them.
I mean for starters: Tank, brute, Stalker, and Scrapper ranged damage suck. Like, make master minds look like blasters suck. Ranged APPs and certain ranged powers they get skirt around this by the damage being linked to their melee damage modifier.
By making them Power Pools, they become readily available to EVERYONE and by the above comment I already made: who will end up befitting the most? None melee ATs, really.
The powers I picked out, as power pools, could result in doubled powers, which the devs hate with a passion. A DP blaster could have Pistols, pistols, dual wield, dual wield, and empty clips, empty clips.
Power order would need to be rearranged so that you can't just get some rather decent AoEs as soon as level 14, possibly. (I mean look at spring attack and the hoops you need to jump through that)
And if you make them into ancillary pools for Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers, and Tanks, you end up with the problem of only being able to have one EPP per-build and cannot select anything else to go with it.
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