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I love intelligent arguments that are backed up by numbers, so I thank you for this. I have only the above portion quoted as there is a mistake with the tanker calculations. You forgot to include bruising (as you had included in your damage caps calculations). Factor in bruising for the tank and his damage is 240... practically the same as the scrapper. My reference to a god-mode scrapper wasn't so much about the damage, the damage bonus essentially makes the tank a scrapper. The god-mode was in reference to the recharge and endurance bonus you also give (50% IIRC). Yes, you did also give the tank a -30% defense and resistance debuff. That puts it at lower survivability than a scrapper, but let's face it... if you are going "god-mode scrapper" with your tank, it's because you probably have the support around you to make up the debuffs, but you gain so much more with the recharge and endurance. Simply put, the idea is too extreme (atleast with these numbers that you provided) to ever be implemented as a reasonable fix to tankers. Tankers are very close to Scrappers/Brutes on their own. Without teammates or other sources of buffs, the survivability bonus of a tank is worth the damage sacrifice lost to Scrappers/Brutes. It's when in teams that the separation gets out of hand. Brutes will get buffed to nearly the same HP/Resistance/Defense levels as that of a Tank... but will still be doing top Melee damage. Scrappers will get buffed to the same Defense levels of a Tank, but will still be doing top Melee damage. But the tank still gets shafted at having any respectable DPS. This is why bruising is so great, that 20% resistance debuff closed the gap a bit... and because everyone on the team gets the same debuff effect, the tank is effectively adding 20% of the damage created by each teammates attack to their DPS... easily outshining anything any other melee toon can do. The only problem now with tankers is that you really only need one on a team. The exception being if you had more than one target to attack at one time, then having one tanker per hard target may be necessary. But I don't know of any cases where you would fight more than 1 AV at a time. Even then, with a team of decent buffers/debuffers, a brute can do everything great that a tanker can do (other than punchvoke, from gauntlet), but also do scrapper damage. You can use that extra slot for another debuffer to make up for bruising.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Tank: 80 damage +100% slotting +50% Onslaught self-buff = 250%, for 200 damage. Brute: 75 damage +100% slotting +140% fury = 340% = 255 damage Scrapper 112.5 damage +100% slotting = 200 percent = 225 damage * 1.07crit = 241 damage. |
Because the main stagnation towards multiple tankers is that they do not do enough damage, I think the simple solution is to up their damage cap or to change their damage modifier from 0.8 to perhaps 0.9. I believe tankers only need a little bit of tweaking, nothing big. Like I said, bruising made them much closer to the other ATs. But just a slightly more kick would get them to a point where people will stop defaulting to brutes for their tanking needs.
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Note I didn't say they couldn't be useful. I noted that some players eschew a second (or more) Tanker because, if the first is locking down agro, then any other AT is providing more to the team then a second Tanker. The high DPS ATs bring more Damage. The squishies bring multipliers. While a second Tanker isn't useless, the second Tanker becomes the least useful AT because their inherent doesn't stack in a team-useful way except in edge cases.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Whilst second tankers shouldn't be needed it doesn't mean they can't be useful. Usefulness is down to how people play. Lack of usefulness is why some tankers would prefer a scrapper in that second tankers place. A second tanker could be useful but often isn't by their own in mission decisions.
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My thoughts:|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Clicking Onslaught raises the damage cap by 100 percent, adds a 50 percent global damage enhancement boost, a 50 percent global recharge enhancement, and 50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction. It also lowers all defense and resist powers by a global 30 percent enhancement penalty. When required, the Tanker can attack with greatly improved strength by throwing caution to the winds. (Note, as global enhancement boosts, these are unaffected by ED.)
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-"50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction"
This endurance penalty is not needed and is only exacerbated by the global recharge enhancement, which is going to cause you to burn more endurance anyways. And, at 50%, aren't you essentially proposing that your attacks AND toggles (offensive or not) would burn twice as much endurance per activation but you will not be doing twice as much damage per activation?
ON TOP of the other penalties, only a sucker would make that trade.
-"It also lowers all defense and resist powers by a global 30 percent enhancement penalty."
Resistance and Defense debuffs do not play well together and we usually don't consider Defense to be equal to the same value of Resistance. The 2%:1% ratio is the accepted conversion rate. Also, this affects some sets much more than others. I don't know how to begin to approach constructing a defensive penalty that is 'fair' to all defensive sets, but I'd suspect it would have to include penalties to HP and Regeneration values as well.
My suggestions:
-Remove the endurance penalty.
-Add a global buff to Knock Back/Up. It helps offset the damage buff somewhat, and makes the attacks it affects look more awesome.
-Change the Defense/Resistance Penalty to something that's more 'fair' to all existing defensive sets.
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| Clicking Guarded lowers the damage cap by 100 percent and lowers damage by a global 50 percent. It raises the Tankers Threat rating to 5, increases taunt durations by a global 100 percent, adds a global 50 percent enhancement to all defense and resist powers, doubles the Tankers aggro cap, and adds a mag 6 global status effect defense. When required, the Tanker can use their 'battle smarts' to overawe, out-maneuver, and confound the enemies advances. |
-What happens when your 'doubled aggro cap' drops back down when this click runs out? The (up to) 17 guys you suddenly can't hold the attention of turn their sights on your teammates?
I don't want to gamble on my team being able to drop 17-34 enemies in under 30 seconds.
My suggestions:
-Remove the aggro cap modification.
-Add a large radius, PBAoE Taunt upon activation of the power, potent enough to yank the aggro off of anything.
-Add a +HP/+Max HP component and lower the Def and Res buffs a bit to compensate. Just enough to help cover some holes in some defensive sets. For example, buffing the Def and Res of Invul will not help them against Psi enemies, but the power will penalize their damage output anyways. Nor would buffing Def and Res powers help a theoretical Regen Tanker very much, assuming they get proliferated some day.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
My thoughts:
-"50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction" This endurance penalty is not needed and is only exacerbated by the global recharge enhancement, which is going to cause you to burn more endurance anyways. And, at 50%, aren't you essentially proposing that your attacks AND toggles (offensive or not) would burn twice as much endurance per activation but you will not be doing twice as much damage per activation? ON TOP of the other penalties, only a sucker would make that trade. -"It also lowers all defense and resist powers by a global 30 percent enhancement penalty." Resistance and Defense debuffs do not play well together and we usually don't consider Defense to be equal to the same value of Resistance. The 2%:1% ratio is the accepted conversion rate. Also, this affects some sets much more than others. I don't know how to begin to approach constructing a defensive penalty that is 'fair' to all defensive sets, but I'd suspect it would have to include penalties to HP and Regeneration values as well. My suggestions: -Remove the endurance penalty. -Add a global buff to Knock Back/Up. It helps offset the damage buff somewhat, and makes the attacks it affects look more awesome. -Change the Defense/Resistance Penalty to something that's more 'fair' to all existing defensive sets. My thoughts: -What happens when your 'doubled aggro cap' drops back down when this click runs out? The (up to) 17 guys you suddenly can't hold the attention of turn their sights on your teammates? I don't want to gamble on my team being able to drop 17-34 enemies in under 30 seconds. My suggestions: -Remove the aggro cap modification. -Add a large radius, PBAoE Taunt upon activation of the power, potent enough to yank the aggro off of anything. -Add a +HP/+Max HP component and lower the Def and Res buffs a bit to compensate. Just enough to help cover some holes in some defensive sets. For example, buffing the Def and Res of Invul will not help them against Psi enemies, but the power will penalize their damage output anyways. Nor would buffing Def and Res powers help a theoretical Regen Tanker very much, assuming they get proliferated some day. . |
I think you misunderstood what the reduction means in "endurance reduction". It means the endurance costs to all of the tanker's powers is reduced by 50%, making it cost less endurance. Same way energize, conserve power or Cardiac alpha reduces global endurance cost.
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He should clarify, because the words mean the opposite to me.|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
I think you misunderstood what the reduction means in "endurance reduction". It means the endurance costs to all of the tanker's powers is reduced by 50%, making it cost less endurance. Same way energize, conserve power or Cardiac alpha reduces global endurance cost.
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"50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction"
Should instead be:
"50 percent global endurance discount"
or
"50 percent buff to global endurance reduction"
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
He should clarify, because the words mean the opposite to me.
"50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction" Should instead be: "50 percent global endurance discount" or "50 percent buff to global endurance reduction" . |
I can see where the confusion lies. But surely, it is a discount that he means.
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/em facepalm|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
I love intelligent arguments that are backed up by numbers, so I thank you for this. I have only the above portion quoted as there is a mistake with the tanker calculations. You forgot to include bruising (as you had included in your damage caps calculations). Factor in bruising for the tank and his damage is 240... practically the same as the scrapper.
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Stoopid math....
Okies, the onslaught damage boost is now 20 percent.
Tank: 80 damage +100% slotting +20% Onslaught self-buff = 220%, for 176 damage. Bruising takes this to 211.
Brute: 75 damage +100% slotting +140% fury = 340% = 255 damage
Scrapper 112.5 damage +100% slotting = 200 percent = 225 damage * 1.07crit = 241 damage.
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| The god-mode was in reference to the recharge and endurance bonus you also give (50% IIRC). |
If 50 percent seems too much, make them 20 percent instead. Fixed at a stroke!
And yes, the 30 percent resist and defense global enhancement penalty stays the same. Onslaught is something to approach with caution.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
My thoughts:
-"50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction" This endurance penalty is not needed and is only exacerbated by the global recharge enhancement, which is going to cause you to burn more endurance anyways. And, at 50%, aren't you essentially proposing that your attacks AND toggles (offensive or not) would burn twice as much endurance per activation but you will not be doing twice as much damage per activation? ON TOP of the other penalties, only a sucker would make that trade. |
No.
This is a global endurance reduction enhancement, similar to but weaker than Conserve Power. The idea is, your attacks are recharging more quickly, increasing your end burn. The end reduction is designed (perhaps poorly) to exactly offset that increase, raising the tankers DPE. IE, the toon behaves roughly the same End-wise in or out of Onslaught. The numbers may need tinkering to achieve that notion, but it seemed right to me.
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-"It also lowers all defense and resist powers by a global 30 percent enhancement penalty." Resistance and Defense debuffs do not play well together and we usually don't consider Defense to be equal to the same value of Resistance. The 2%:1% ratio is the accepted conversion rate. |
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| Also, this affects some sets much more than others. I don't know how to begin to approach constructing a defensive penalty that is 'fair' to all defensive sets, but I'd suspect it would have to include penalties to HP and Regeneration values as well. |
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My suggestions: -Add a global buff to Knock Back/Up. It helps offset the damage buff somewhat, and makes the attacks it affects look more awesome. |
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| -Change the Defense/Resistance Penalty to something that's more 'fair' to all existing defensive sets. |
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My thoughts: -What happens when your 'doubled aggro cap' drops back down when this click runs out? The (up to) 17 guys you suddenly can't hold the attention of turn their sights on your teammates? I don't want to gamble on my team being able to drop 17-34 enemies in under 30 seconds.
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My suggestions: -Remove the aggro cap modification. |
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| -Add a large radius, PBAoE Taunt upon activation of the power, potent enough to yank the aggro off of anything. |
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| -Add a +HP/+Max HP component and lower the Def and Res buffs a bit to compensate. |
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| Just enough to help cover some holes in some defensive sets. For example, buffing the Def and Res of Invul will not help them against Psi enemies, but the power will penalize their damage output anyways. |
Good thoughts here.
I quite like the idea of giving Tankers a "reverse bodyguard" mechanic, where some portion of all damage dealt to your allies is redirected to the tanker... It's basically the resistance analogue to Taunt/Gauntlet's mechanic: whereas Taunt prevents your allies from being hurt by making sure the enemy attacks you instead, Bodyguard reduces whatever damage gets through the Taunt by redirecting it after the fact. Obviously it would be problematic in that some sets can handle that incoming damage better than others (since it would basically be autohit damage on the Tanker, bypassing the Tanker's defense), but it would certainly help out cases with lots of ambushes or AoE damage, which tend to be when things get more difficult for some tanks to control. Furthermore, it would actually mean that having multiple tanks on the team would bring exponentially greater survivability for the rest of team.
Of course, this could also be handled by just making sure that Tankers have access to some kind of PBAoE team survivability buff, a la Grant Cover (something that I've always felt Tankers should have).
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
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Also, I think any pass on Tankers needs to consider the issue of IO disparity. The imbalance between Defense and Resistance set bonuses, plus the sheer difficulty in hoarding Damage set bonuses, provide two different aspects of the metagame that work against Tankers more than against any other AT.
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
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Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
I personally would just like to see taunt work right. It is broken right now, and has been for a few issues now. Well that or they nerfed it and didn't tell us. But after the borked up thing that was the patch before this last one I am pretty sure its bugged... 
In case anyone hasn't noticed anything can make a con break off taunt including a healer coming in range and just healing. Something is way wrong with taunt.
Broomhilda BS/Regen/BM Scrapper, Fiddle Faddle Shield/ElecM/BM Tank,
And many others..
Dev's With all the Great new content, Please!! dont forget to fix the bugs with the old content. There is a storm a brewing because they are not getting fixed. If its a problem that no one is reporting them? Well Maybe you need to look at your tech support then..
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Oh, that'd explain it. I was doing the Statesman Task Force today, taunting Recluse and I was doing alright until someone came by and used one of the destiny powers. At that point, he ran off and started attacking everyone else. I don't know how many taunts it took to get his attention again. He just wasn't interested in attacking me.
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Originally Posted by Broomhilda
In case anyone hasn't noticed anything can make a con break off taunt including a healer coming in range and just healing. Something is way wrong with taunt.
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I honestly don't know if any of the current Devs know enough about the aggro formulas to be able to fix it if it is broken. |
Originally Posted by Broomhilda
I personally would just like to see taunt work right. It is broken right now, and has been for a few issues now. Well that or they nerfed it and didn't tell us. But after the borked up thing that was the patch before this last one I am pretty sure its bugged...
In case anyone hasn't noticed anything can make a con break off taunt including a healer coming in range and just healing. Something is way wrong with taunt. |
Still, if this is true, it does need to be fixed.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Understood. Your wording threw me.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
This is a global endurance reduction enhancement, similar to but weaker than Conserve Power.
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| Right, and this debuff would affect both, because it's an enhancement bonus. It's like removing 30 percents worth of the slotting in your powers. Yes, that number may need to be run through the Schedule for defense powers, but that's a simple conversion, assuming it's needed at all. |
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| (shudder) I'll never suggest any such thing, although it might look kewl. |
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| That is exactly what happens, and is as it should be. If you want to avoid this, work like the dickens for perma-guarded and be fast on the button. The tanker doesn't get any better of a deal from this than a controller does who has holds that expire. |
Also, keep in mind you're potentially doubling the damage AND debuffs the Tanker is exposed to by doubling the aggro cap, maybe to enemies the Tanker is already not so strong against. What kind of logic is it to click a power named Guarded and start faceplanting?
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I strongly feel that Tankers need a way to handle more aggro, to compete with heavy pet users and multi-spawn locking controllers. YMMV.
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As a separate addition to Tankers, give them an invisible, unkillable pseudopet that AoE taunts enemies that is always on. This pet follows the Tanker around and has a weaker taunt so they'd only start pulling aggro themselves once the Tanker hits his 17 cap and there are no other taunters around. This effectively increases the Tanker's aggro cap, can always be on and doesn't impact Tanker survivability as much as just upping the Tanker's aggro cap would because they'd only be getting hit with the extra AoE past 17 enemies and the extra ST damage would be getting 'eaten'.
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| Guarded mode as presented gives Threat modifier 5 and +100 percent taunt duration enhancement mod. That should EASILY achieve this result. |
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| The psi hole is very deliberately preserved, as is toxic weakness, etc. The damage penalty is to balance out the vast increase in threat and aggro generation, and the comprehensive, low level status effect protection. |
30 percent global heal enhancement buff really doesn't help in that situation because DP and accolades already put Invul at the HP cap, and they're really not going to get anything substantial out of Fitness Health.
How about instead of the 30 percent global heal enhancement buff, a straight +Regen and +Def(all) buff when in Guarded? Say, 200% and 10% respectively? Remember, you're exposing the Tanker to potentially TWICE the damage and debuffs. If you weren't upping the aggro cap, this wouldn't be called for.
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Taunt isn't always autowin. For as long as I can remember it never was. Different NPCs will react differently towards it. I've seen aggro'd Devouring Earth take some pulling which was least expected. Clockwork and Nems that's to be expected but AI is what it is for a reason Devs should know. I doubtful that there is a major problem with the aggro formula itself.
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Originally Posted by Broomhilda
In case anyone hasn't noticed anything can make a con break off taunt including a healer coming in range and just healing. Something is way wrong with taunt.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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People can attract Statesman from the Gens. If you got a Dark Armour Scrapper with all his toggles on who suddenly uses build up or something then there can be an instant attraction. The answer isn't always obvious, your range, taunt duration, recharge and any dps on Statesman TF all come under question when you lose aggro.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Oh, that'd explain it. I was doing the Statesman Task Force today, taunting Recluse and I was doing alright until someone came by and used one of the destiny powers. At that point, he ran off and started attacking everyone else. I don't know how many taunts it took to get his attention again. He just wasn't interested in attacking me.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
For a tanker this is what I personally would like to see for the end game content:
I would like an option similar to Domination where as I take heavy damage I can click the power call it "Rampart." Rampart drops my damage output by 25% but adds a further reduction to the incoming damage and a resistance to debuffs by the same amount. This would be a power that behaves exactly like domination. The same cooldown and build up except it is accomplished by number of Attacks made on you.
The attacks don't have to get through just be made against you. The goal is to absorb the alpha and it makes sense that if you are working to survive you may not be paying as much attention to your attacks and so the damage drops while you try to live.
I want the player to have control and not have it automatic - if I have Ice shields and Forcefields on my team - I may not need the boost. But if I am a fully kitted out Fire Tank with a sonic defender on my team - I could definately use the Rampart power. I don't need more resistance but the Defense and debuff boost would really help.
Then your tank really benefits from those wonderful IO's as they can now get a Debuff resistance as well - tanks would have an OMG power for when it all goes horribly wrong.
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+Defense is problematic in that it's far more useful to, say, Invuln, than it is to Electric Armor. You'd need to be granting both +Defense and +Resistance if you want it to be useful across the board. Conversely, if somebody is already softcapped, then this buff to survivability would mean very little at all (say, an SR tank, for whom 10% more defense means little and 20% regen is a pitiful token compared to what they need to survive). The different powersets all have different issues, so it's very hard to come up with a single buff that's equally beneficial across the board, and won't just be "yes, Shields is even better now, sorry Electric". Even if you stick to enhancement bonuses, that won't help SR much since his only enhanceable trait is Defense, and it has enough of that by endgame. Electric would certainly love a nice +50% Enhancement(Resistance), on the other hand (which might be problematic for the Devs to do since Resistance powers are flagged to avoid external buffs, so they'd have to use the work around they did for Alpha slots).
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
How about instead of the 30 percent global heal enhancement buff, a straight +Regen and +Def(all) buff when in Guarded? Say, 200% and 10% respectively? Remember, you're exposing the Tanker to potentially TWICE the damage and debuffs. If you weren't upping the aggro cap, this wouldn't be called for.
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Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
Ok, so I don't have a hard numeric suggestion for how you'd fix it, but I do have to second the idea that I resent the notion of having to dip into the fighting pool for functionality that my primary should be doing for me. The problem, as we've seen, is how do you make sure that it means that people who DO take tough/weave aren't overpowered, and people who don't aren't underpowered.
Is it possible, perhaps, to set a limit such that tough/weave can't push res/def beyond the point that the powerset could do on its own? A third cap for the amount that tough/weave can boost to? and then you can up the defense/res values for the sets and everyones happy. Well, except for people who like running two extra toggles, I suppose. Just airy speculation here.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I'd like to see a bit more benefit from using Taunt while solo. The range debuff is nice. Something further along those lines.
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I think part of the problem is that the aggro formulas in CoH are *not* totally understood. Arcanaville, who has more knowledge of the inner workings of this game than just about anyone you will ever meet on these forums, confesses to uncertainty of the aggro mechanics. Remember also that the original code for CoH was written by people who are no longer working on it, and sometimes things break for no obvious reason when something else is changed.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
but AI is what it is for a reason Devs should know. I doubtful that there is a major problem with the aggro formula itself.
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As an example.. the way our zone maps become greyed out when we log in.. I am pretty sure that they did nothing new to the maps, some other changes to the game caused this bug, and the chances are that the change in question had almost nothing to do with the maps, except in some previously unknown snippet of code.
The same sort of thing might be involved with aggro. So much has changed in this game since launch that it might be like walking into a minefield if they attempt to adjust the "core" of the aggro mechanics in the game. I would expect that there is a certain amount of "unless it is really broke, don't fix it" with the devs. As long as aggro is working mostly as desired then they are hesitant to mess around with it much. "Perfect is the enemy of good enough"
That said, I would like to see some tweaking done to aggro and taunt, but I think that is what the Devs would call "a non-trivial task"
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I agree.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
The different powersets all have different issues, so it's very hard to come up with a single buff that's equally beneficial across the board, and won't just be "yes, Shields is even better now, sorry Electric". Even if you stick to enhancement bonuses, that won't help SR much since his only enhanceable trait is Defense, and it has enough of that by endgame.
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This is why I'm against touching the aggro cap. It negatively impacts survivability and causes too many problems.
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When Castle and Ghost Widow first dived into the aggro formula, they discovered that it was more complex than either of them thought. I don't know if either of THEM ever fully got their hands around how it actually works, or whether either of them created some documentation of how it worked (because the previous documentation was flat out wrong). We do know that there is basically a huge spreadsheet filled with values out there somewhere, but that's all we know.|
Originally Posted by Wrend
I think part of the problem is that the aggro formulas in CoH are *not* totally understood. Arcanaville, who has more knowledge of the inner workings of this game than just about anyone you will ever meet on these forums, confesses to uncertainty of the aggro mechanics. Remember also that the original code for CoH was written by people who are no longer working on it, and sometimes things break for no obvious reason when something else is changed.
As an example.. the way our zone maps become greyed out when we log in.. I am pretty sure that they did nothing new to the maps, some other changes to the game caused this bug, and the chances are that the change in question had almost nothing to do with the maps, except in some previously unknown snippet of code. The same sort of thing might be involved with aggro. So much has changed in this game since launch that it might be like walking into a minefield if they attempt to adjust the "core" of the aggro mechanics in the game. I would expect that there is a certain amount of "unless it is really broke, don't fix it" with the devs. As long as aggro is working mostly as desired then they are hesitant to mess around with it much. "Perfect is the enemy of good enough" That said, I would like to see some tweaking done to aggro and taunt, but I think that is what the Devs would call "a non-trivial task" |
Since we've never been told critical factors of how aggro works and decays, it's very tough to test to figure out the values we don't have.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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It negatively impacts survivability that we already have too much of, according to you?
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I agree.
This is why I'm against touching the aggro cap. It negatively impacts survivability and causes too many problems. . |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Need to also think about increasing the range of taunt powers hard to manipulate opponents in some of the really big crowds.
And consider the ability to turn them off without disabling the defensive powers there attached to.
These become major issues in trials.
Maybe consider making one of the future incarnate sets bases around individual ATs.