boppaholic

Since there is no worries on costs with these builds, check out the slight tweak I did with yours. I sacrificed a damage proc (in a power I only use for bruising), sacrificed 5% global recharge, 3% Damage (from Obliteration), but gained 3.75% HP, 1.8 Endurance, while still keeping it softcapped. The recharge in shield charge goes down a bit (about 1.5 seconds longer to recharge), but I plan to fix that with your enhancement booster suggestion. Also, our resistance slightly goes up with this new slotting.

So what's so great? Well we are now HP capped when we use OwtS without having to put a healing enhancement in the power. Our HP before OwtS is at 169.2% or 3170 HP.

*Note - I also learned how to show enhancement boosts in Mids, YAY, but I don't have any boosts shown in the posted build below*

And less interrupting of your combo-based system attack chains. When burn is up, you will have to decide if the chain is worth it over the sweetness of burn. Seems undesirable to me.

With DA, you toggle up and only interrupt if you need to heal. It is technically the most endurance heavy set in terms of toggling everything on. As for CoF, it has the same end/sec cost as death shroud. If you want you can have a damage aura, a to-hit debuffer, and a minion mitigator. It just costs you twice the price to run it. But you have the option of detoggling one of them if you feel it is necessary. If you do this, the set is then on par with any other set in terms of toggle endurance drain... if not better. DA doesn't have an endurance recovery tool, but it does have very high endurance drain resistance (69%?). So no worries about sappers (well, not as much worries).

Because DB isn't too endurance heavy, I think DA pairs with it very well. Good luck in your decision making and I hope you enjoy dual blades.

I obviously agree with you, as I mentioned it earlier... tankers are not appealing after you have one on the team. So some sort of stack-ability would be nice.

If you make it stack-able without diminishing returns, I think you make the tank too appealing. But with diminishing returns would be good. I'm thinking perhaps something along the lines of 20% bruising from one tank. If another tank hits the target, it does 10% bruising. If a third tank his it, it does 5%. And that's the cap. So 1 tank gives the team 20% damage improvement on a single target. 2 tanks can give the team a 30% damage improvement on a single target. 3 or more tanks can give the team a 35% damage improvement on a single target. It would be hard to implement this though we the current system. When the target grants himself the bruising effect, there's no way to know the next time a bruise attack comes in that it was from the same tank or a different one. The mechanics would have to change such that the debuff is associated to the tank that applied it. Doing it this way, the purple patch would kick in, and against the really hard targets, we are now nerfing the tank's bruising effect. I'm tired and am rambling. But to reiterate what I said in an earlier post: Soloing or without buffs, the tank is more survivable than a brute, but the brute does more damage... so it's a wash. In teams the brute can achieve the survivability of a tank (or close enough to it) while doing superior individual damage... the tank would have bruising affect the entire team, so its another wash. The difference comes down to what do you get out of adding more brutes versus adding more tanks. Brutes win out as their damage output is far superior whereas only one tank can provide the team the benefit of bruising (on one target, technically two tanks could just target different targets to up the DPS of the team in terms of AoE).

Alright, I'm off to bed, but I wanted to agree with you... but wanted to point out that you need diminishing returns on debuffs otherwise the balance shifts way to much for the tanker. I mentioned in the same post that if you had 8 Fire/Cold Corruptors, their stacking debuffs would make them an absolute beast. You don't want that with a team of tanks all applying 20% res debuffs on one target. It becomes unfair to the other melee ATs that are suppose to do more damage.

Thanks for the advice. You're right, I am DDR capped by the second stack in AD. I thought you did yours with the third slot so that you would have higher DDR on first application and you would be able to activate the second application sooner... so you ramp up to capped DDR faster. I figured with 2, it works well for me .

I'm not familiar with enhancement boosters, what do they do exactly and are they pricey?

Edit: Just saw what enhancement boosters do and good god wow. You can really make a character dirty, especially a high end build

Deus_Otiosus, you are awesome. I've been looking at my Shield/SS Tanker for a long time figuring ways to help its HP cap. I used your build, took out Dark Melee and replaced it with Super Strength. I use Cardiac instead of Spiritual because I have no endurance recovery tool like Dark Consumption. But I did make some other tweaks here and there (I don't use travel powers, so I got a pet instead) and I am quite pleased with the build you helped me create. It is DDR capped, and its HP is at 184.3% or 3454 HPs when OwtS is up (and that's without slotting a healing enhancement). I could have gotten that extra 80 HPs by slotting for it, but I decided to put a damage proc in one of my main attacks instead.

Please check it out and let me know what you think. I'm very excited about it and have you to thank. I was very close with the build I had before, but this took me over the top and then some.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(3), LkGmblr-Def(3), ResDam-I(5), GA-3defTpProc(5), ResDam-I(7)
Level 1: Jab -- Mako-Dam%(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Mako-Acc/Dmg(9), Zinger-Dam%(9)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(11), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(11)
Level 4: True Grit -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(19), Numna-Heal/Rchg(19), TtmC'tng-ResDam(21), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(21), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(23)
Level 6: Active Defense -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(23)
Level 8: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(25), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(25)
Level 12: Phalanx Fighting -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 16: Haymaker -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(29), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Hectmb-Dam%(31), Zinger-Dam%(46)
Level 18: Grant Cover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 20: Taunt -- Taunt-I(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(31), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(34)
Level 28: Knockout Blow -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(36), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(36), UbrkCons-Dam%(37)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(37), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(37)
Level 32: One with the Shield -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(39), ResDam-I(39)
Level 35: Rage -- GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(39), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(40)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(40), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Armgdn-Dam%(42), FrcFbk-Rechg%(42)
Level 41: Gloom -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(43), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Apoc-Dam%(45)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(46), Ragnrk-Knock%(46)
Level 47: Summon Widow -- S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(A), S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(50), DarkWD-ToHitDeb(50), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(50)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(13), Numna-Heal/Rchg(13), Mrcl-Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(15), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(17), P'Shift-End%(17)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run

Again, I agree with DreadShinobi. The damage doesn't help you that much on a brute due to their low base damage. I would go Agility Core T4 over any form of Musculature because the EndMod would make your sapping that much better (So you would take it to make Power Sink and Lightning Field perform better, only). You would also get recharge (not as much as spiritual core, but it's still good).

So to weight the benefits between Spiritual Core and Agility Core (T4):

-Spiritual gives you 30% recharge ED protected, and 15% recharge ED affected.
-Agility gives you 22% recharge ED protected, and 11% recharge ED affected.

So for recharge, on average Spiritual will give you 9-12% more recharge to all of your powers.

With Spiritual you will get 22% Healing ED protected, and 11% Healing ED affected. This will make energize, and health perform better.

With Agility you will get 30% EndMod ED protected, and 15% EndMod ED affected. This makes you sap the enemies more.

*Note, you also get defense boost, which makes your CJ, Weave, Maneuvers, etc improve A LITTLE bit. Not enough to really merit much for an ELA.

Depending on the enemy, Spiritual or Agility will work better for you. Agility can make it so you jump in, Power Sink, and the enemy will not attack you again with anything much better than Brawl as long as they're in your lightning field. That's great damage mitigation. However, the enemies that you would really be worried about (tougher guys, like higher level bosses, AVs, etc.) may not be affected enough by your sapping. And it's these same enemies that will hit you harder, making you need to have Energize and Health to perform better.

So in the end, Spiritual wins out. You will still survive anything where endurance sapping would work... but you will not survive as easily if you rely on endurance sapping when it doesn't work.

I'm sure they will chime in without the need if a PM. I know the minimum resistance is -300%. But if an enemy has say 50% damage resistance and you apply 400% debuffs. They will resist the debuffs by 50%. I will look up the formula later. But either way, I'm fairly certain your -400% resistance debuffs did not make the 50% resistant critter get capped to -300%

I'll need verification of this. You are correct that the AV will take 400% more damage than it would had it not been debuffed with -400%. But that doesn't mean the AV is capped yet for -res.

As for the purple patch, I'm not sure. It might not be affected... but then I'll probably need a refresher as to why it is considered extra beneficial that the AV is applying the debuff to itself as opposed to the tanker applying it

Flavor should come at a balanced cost. If you allow each AT to have the same hp/res/def, how do you balance the flavors? What level of utility is even with damage? What level of buffs balances with utility/damage? And how do you keep it balanced across all soloing and teaming content? How does it balance with stackability? It a team of 8 debuffing tanks could be made, say good bye to defenders, they won't ever be needed again.

Edit: we should take this argument offline. This is a great thread and we're doing it a disservice by flooding it with our back and forth rhetoric. PM me if you wish to continue making your case, otherwise we can just agree to disagree for the sake of the forum readers.

When was the last time a defender or corruptor took an enemy to their resistance cap and it mattered? For the most part that level of debuffing is over kill. And against an AV with the purple patch, you would seriously have to push to get them there. You do not have to seriously push to get a brute to a tankers survivability

Really? We're using character creation window as evidence for why all hp/res/def caps should be the same?

Let's face it, what you propose is a nerf to the tanker. Resistance, hp and defense is an absolute cap. If we use the same cap for every AT they would be exactly the same at cap. We cant do this for other things, like say everyone now gets the same damage cap. That would hurt all ATs that have lower damage mods (so now brutes would cry foul if it was capped at 500%).

The different mods and caps are to reflect the specialties of the respective AT. Just because an AT can tank doesn't mean they should be able to at the same level as the AT who is supposed to specialize in it. A corruptor can buff, put they shouldn't be able to buff to the same level as a defender. And defenders are not suppose to be able to do the raw damage of a corruptor. Sure, both can blast, but the defender will never blast better than the corruptor. So why is it that the tank can never do the damage of a kheldian or brute, but you believe they can be allowed to maintain the same survivability of a tank? Your reason is to introduce niches. Brutes do damage. Khelds do utility/morph. Tanks do debuffs/buffs. Beyond the resistance debuff, what can a tanker do in terms of buffing/debuffing that makes sense to super heroes or comics? How would captain america Bbws able to make his team do more damage?

Edit: I apologize for the lack of fluidity of ny arguments. Typing this post from a cell phone makes it difficult to keep pace with the thoughts I want to articulate. If I don't make sense, I'll reiterate my arguments more clearly later on. Until then, I hope this suffice

In the end, very little needs to be done. So proposing ideas that are a radical change will never be seriously considered by the Devs. We just need to find where in the fundamental things that are off balanced that need to be tweaked. IMO the best ideas had to do with small damage buffs or better aggro control. It sounds like the aggro formula tweak isn't an easy fix. But those two fundamental ideas are the best proposals I've heard that could actually be implemented and it would generally appease the tankers without a heavy outcry from other ATs. The game has had tankers for 21 issues, since the beginning. The people still love them and still play them. Everyone who has made suggestions here love them, otherwise they wouldn't play them. There are some shortcomings, but balance will not come from an overhaul. It comes with fine tuning

Level 50, IO'd, and accolades? Did you do anything else but play COH the last few days? I'm impressed.

Edit: Seriously, tell me your secret.

I agree. Endurance is a non issue with electric armor. Power Sink and Energize give you an endless supply. I say go with Spiritual because, it still does make Power Sink and Energize recharge that much sooner (so if you did have endurance issues, I don't know, I haven't played TW, you would be able to mitigate it that much sooner). Really, the issues with Electric Armor is no defense and no +HP. That means you want to be able to heal as much as possible and have as much regeneration as possible, because superior resistances only take you so far. Spiritual will do that for you by allowing you to heal and regen boost more often AND improves the amount of heal and regen you'll get with the 33# heal enhancement. With spiritual, you CAN have energize up every 30-40 seconds or so (with decent amount of recharge in your build) to heal you ~1000HPs and to give yourself 30 seconds of ~210% regeneration. Plus, you will get your sweet Build Momentum and TW attacks back up, that much sooner. To me, Spiritual T4 core is a no brainer. But I'm curious, what other options were you possible considerring?

Really? So easily to you is no sets? Easily means relative to other options available. In this case, Super Reflexes is easily softcappable relative to other armor sets. A SR tank with its superior base modifications would have 26% defense to M/R/A. If you go for ED (55% IIRC), your defense would be 40.3. No pool powers. With Combat Jumping and Maneuvers you will get there. In this case, Super Reflexes is your only easily softcappable set. But for most, easily is any set that can softcap with the use of ED slotting, weave, CJ/Hover, maneuvers, and reasonably priced IOs offering the defense bonuses that can get you there (The +3 defense global PvE enhancement included).

In my opinion, the following are easy to softcap: Shield, SR, Stone Tank, and Invulnerability (with Unyielding). You can add Ice for S/L/E/N defense, but is not easy with F/C/P

Willpower is moderate in the types, but I would still say hard in S/L (I don't think you can get S/L to softcap with reasonably priced IOs while still getting your other types there too).

Differences between Brutes and Tanks:
While Solo:
I think they are close enough. Brutes do Scrapper damage while still maintaining taunt to keep baddies near them. They also have scrapper level resistance and defense base mods but have the potential to get up to tanker level resist caps. It is harder to get to the caps while solo, whereas a Tank will be able to cap easier or maintain a 33% defense and resistance improvement over a brute with identical slotting. This 33% survivability plus bruising is very much a reasonable tradeoff to fury.

My argument is for teams (or leagues) where it is NOT difficult to reach your cap. Let's say you have a couple of buffers on a team, the difference between survivability of the Tank and Brute are no longer 33%, it's practically nil. The Tank will still have higher hit points (but the percentage of HP advantage isn't much), they are both capped defensively and they are capped in the same resistances (resistances the tanker couldn't cap would still maintain an advantage, but it will be less than 33%). In the end, for typical group play you will see brutes at practically the same survivability levels as a tank. Perhaps not quite as high, but high enough to where they practically can't die. Either way, your defense is the same. But you know what else makes for great defense? A great offense. A tank can't give you that. A brute can. A brute has a hard time getting to it's cap in damage unless you have a kin or a whole lot of buffers, but they will always have a much better offense than a tank. For instance, say you have a tank and he's exactly buffed to his cap. His damage modifier would be .8*4 = 3.2. Let's do a best case scenario for the tank here, let's say he was buffed to exactly 400% so no saturation. With the same enhancing and buffs, but let's assume 70% fury, would have the brute modifier as .75*(4+1.4) = 4.05. That's over 26% improvement over a tank, and this is the best case scenario for a tank. The brute can still continue to climb linearly to .75*(7.75) = 5.8125, which means the brute can potentially climb to over 81% more damage than a tank can possibly do at cap. By doing more damage, you kill faster, which makes you more survivable. So whatever the slight edge in survivability the tank MAY have still had in terms of resistance and HP, is actually wiped away by the fact that the Brute will kill faster thus taking less attacks and damage per mob.

When forming a team, if you have some buffs, you have no need for the tank (with the right IO builds, you don't even need buffers to make brutes nearly on par with tanks in terms of survivability). A brute will do everything a tank can do defensively (other than punchvoke), but will give you 26-81% more damage over a CAPPED tank. You form up a team and people will just go brutes over tanks because they want that extra DPS with nothing lost. This was why outcries for tanks getting boosts or brutes getting nerfed first began. But the devs did change that in a way that makes sense and really does even it out, and that was adding Bruising (so way to go Devs, awesome work as it works thematically and was a simple solution - as opposed to most ideas in this thread). Bruising made the Tank allow the WHOLE team to do 20% more damage on a single target (so Brutes are still best by a lot in crowds, but Tanks are there to take down the really hard AV/GM with ease). Wow. That makes up the 26-81% the one brute would have given you over a damage capped tank.

So Bruising fixed the team issue I mentioned before. Now when I see teams form, they desire a tank. But here's the deal, one tank is all you need. You don't get any more benefits of 2 tanks over 1. After the 1st tank, you fix up your teams with as much DPS and support as you can muster. I don't think this is a problem though, because I like the idea of variety in teams. X-men weren't all Wolverines, or all Cyclops, or all Storms, but a mix of all sorts.

So where am I going with all this? Well... Scrappers, Tanks, and Brutes are actually pretty balanced across each other in both Solo or Team settings (in my opinion). Before bruising I would have said Tanks are completely shafted in teams when Brutes were going around doing their main job but better. Now, it does feel more even, but it feels like Tanks are still slightly below the level of Scrappers/Brutes (again, my opinion). The reason I feel this way is because of the "what does more of the same AT add to the team?" question. Between these three ATs, if you were making a team you would definitely want one tank for bruising (and overall superior survivability), but after that you don't want another tank. You could go with more tanks, but the gains are diminishing (in comparison to what another AT would offer you). But when given the opportunity for multiple scrappers and brutes, their DPS values are gravy, and there is no diminishing return (again in comparison to what another AT would offer you). *A side note, Buffers/Debuffers/Controllers have huge returns on multiples as their stackability makes them absolutely dirty, and could get rid of any need for a variety in their teams - just picture what a team of 8 fire/cold corruptors would do to anything that got in its way, is there a team of 8 scrappers that could muster the same worries?*.

So that's it. I feel like Tanks are slightly less valuable than a Scrapper or Brute because of the diminishing returns theory. But solo, or team, a single tanker is on par I say with a Scrapper or Brute. Overall, I don't think there is any need for a change to tanks, especially not the overhaul suggestions that have been brought up in the thread. If anything, a slight (very slight) damage boost to tanks I think would even out the diminishing returns theory (so it's not so diminishing, but not necessarily linear with Brutes/Scrappers). Otherwise, I liked what someone said before (and I paraphrase) ... you don't need to fix close enough. (I think the line was something like "Perfection is the enemy of good enough").

So there's my reasoning for no change to the ATs. I can understand a very slight change. But we're talking what... 25-50% damage cap increase at most. It's simple. It's only a gain to potential, so it's not an immediate change (an increase to the .8 modifier would be an immediate increase and one I don't like as much). And the damage fits a bit more with what a Tank make's you think of. I think of a hulking hero who can lay a smack down. Sure, maybe he's not as lethal as a scrapper or brute, but you would have to believe that the power of a tanker should be able to do more than what a defender or controller is capped at.

But if a tank can't get a slight increase to the potential damage that they can output. The next argument is reasonable to think, well should a brute have the same resistance potential as a tank? Maybe, maybe not, but it's why I asked the question. But after reviewing deeper as you've made me do, I am more convinced now that the Devs know what they're doing and the balance across ATs is there.

I like what you're saying in part 3, let tankers be able to do more in terms of Buffs/Debuffs... bruising is a huge step in the right direction, but you don't want to overpower the tank. But maybe a slight mod boost to buffing attributes and maybe more -res in bruising, who knows. But I like the way you characterize it in part 3. I don't think you should streamline the way you mention in part 2. Either keep it as is, or make the brute go down to kheldian levels (85%). But that's just my opinion, not needing to be shared

Agreed. A damage nerf might not be the right way to go. An hp and resist nerf might be more appropriate. I think 85% resist cap would be more appropriate. And perhaps 3000 max hp. I don't think that is unfair. Tanks should be the most resilient, and this would even out the melee ATs a bit

Great point. I believe it is at the right level. Perhaps a damage nerf to brutes is needed to even things out, or a slight damage boost (scale or cap) to tankers. I think a better aggro hold (taunt) buff should be in store too. If a brute does more damage with the same level of taunt, who gets the aggro? The brute. Defeats the purpose of the tank, which is tanking.

I can see where the confusion lies. But surely, it is a discount that he means.

Taunt's -range helps a lot with this. Really, my problem is the saturation of the -dmg to foes (I tend to get myself around more than 10 enemies). But that's not really a big problem either. I have no trouble surviving (but I am a Shield/SS, so I have footstomp and shield charge for KD mitigation... so I suppose I can't speak to the other sets). When I do get into trouble though, I have One with the Shield to help bail me out. I get the HP increase, resist increase, recovery increase, and no fear of hard crashing. Just take my time, pop a purple if i'm being debuffed, pop a green to get my health back up, and just not sweat it.

I think you misunderstood what the reduction means in "endurance reduction". It means the endurance costs to all of the tanker's powers is reduced by 50%, making it cost less endurance. Same way energize, conserve power or Cardiac alpha reduces global endurance cost.

I love intelligent arguments that are backed up by numbers, so I thank you for this. I have only the above portion quoted as there is a mistake with the tanker calculations. You forgot to include bruising (as you had included in your damage caps calculations). Factor in bruising for the tank and his damage is 240... practically the same as the scrapper. My reference to a god-mode scrapper wasn't so much about the damage, the damage bonus essentially makes the tank a scrapper. The god-mode was in reference to the recharge and endurance bonus you also give (50% IIRC). Yes, you did also give the tank a -30% defense and resistance debuff. That puts it at lower survivability than a scrapper, but let's face it... if you are going "god-mode scrapper" with your tank, it's because you probably have the support around you to make up the debuffs, but you gain so much more with the recharge and endurance. Simply put, the idea is too extreme (atleast with these numbers that you provided) to ever be implemented as a reasonable fix to tankers. Tankers are very close to Scrappers/Brutes on their own. Without teammates or other sources of buffs, the survivability bonus of a tank is worth the damage sacrifice lost to Scrappers/Brutes. It's when in teams that the separation gets out of hand. Brutes will get buffed to nearly the same HP/Resistance/Defense levels as that of a Tank... but will still be doing top Melee damage. Scrappers will get buffed to the same Defense levels of a Tank, but will still be doing top Melee damage. But the tank still gets shafted at having any respectable DPS. This is why bruising is so great, that 20% resistance debuff closed the gap a bit... and because everyone on the team gets the same debuff effect, the tank is effectively adding 20% of the damage created by each teammates attack to their DPS... easily outshining anything any other melee toon can do. The only problem now with tankers is that you really only need one on a team. The exception being if you had more than one target to attack at one time, then having one tanker per hard target may be necessary. But I don't know of any cases where you would fight more than 1 AV at a time. Even then, with a team of decent buffers/debuffers, a brute can do everything great that a tanker can do (other than punchvoke, from gauntlet), but also do scrapper damage. You can use that extra slot for another debuffer to make up for bruising.

Because the main stagnation towards multiple tankers is that they do not do enough damage, I think the simple solution is to up their damage cap or to change their damage modifier from 0.8 to perhaps 0.9. I believe tankers only need a little bit of tweaking, nothing big. Like I said, bruising made them much closer to the other ATs. But just a slightly more kick would get them to a point where people will stop defaulting to brutes for their tanking needs.