I don't know about anybody else but I am seeing way too many thoughts on improving Tankers when in reality they're not exactly the black sheep of the family.
1) Can Tankers serve their function?
2) Are they regularly played enough?
3) What the hell should 3 be?
I see performance disparities amongst the secondaries but really thats because things are balanced to the endurance bar and when end recovery is sufficient the only thing left to balance them to is time, and people see difference performance levels over time.
Proliferated sets brought to the Tanker role may still be in need of some adjustment.
Tankers may be better at their duty if undisputable aggro control through taunt control was potentially achievable.
But for me the Tanker is hardly the one-eyed, peg-legged, Captain Hook of all the ATs.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Also, there is a new stickied thread that is designed to consolidate these types of suggestions. It would be best to post your ideas there. The Devs will actually look at it.
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Tankers are not having significant troubles, no. But you're seeing a lot of thoughts because Synapse has stated that he's going to look into tankers.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I don't know about anybody else but I am seeing way too many thoughts on improving Tankers when in reality they're not exactly the black sheep of the family.
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Originally Posted by boppaholic
Also, there is a new stickied thread that is designed to consolidate these types of suggestions. It would be best to post your ideas there. The Devs will actually look at it.
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That said, perhaps I should have posted it in the "So I got a PM from Synapse about buffing Tankers" thread.
Khelds need more help than Tanks.
Also, doesn't OPs suggestion break the cottage rule?
Can we compare unbuffed brutes to buffed tanks too, then we can look at improving brutes also.
This is fun.
(Oh, and tanks are pretty fine.)
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Like I said in the other thread, a better comparison to a buffed Brute is a Tanker and a Blaster. High defense, high damage.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
However, I do understand complaints about how heavily buffed Brutes compare against heavily buffed Tanks.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Tankers are not having significant troubles, no. But you're seeing a lot of thoughts because Synapse has stated that he's going to look into tankers.
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No you're seeing a lot of this because people don't recognize, appreciate or simply want to ignore the Tanker's higher base mitigation.
This sub-forum is just turning into a giant wishlist of how make Tankers the greatest melee AT of all time and why they deserve extra special treatment.
I like that tankers are not damage kings...in truth, that is simply not thier role. All my tankers can take boatloads of damage, but rely on others to do most of the killing. To me, this is how it should be.
Brutes IMHO, should be exactly between Scrappers and Tankers. Able to do both jobs, damage or tanking...but with more work, focus and conentration then one of the 'pure' forms has to put in.
For example...my claws/inv brute has some great base numbers
s/l defense is over 50% and s/l resistance is 70%. When rage is maxed...he's a killing machine. His weakness is keeping tabs on threat and making sure he hits so the mobs dont go wandering off. Or if he's in a role for damage, that he is not stealing threat and he's working the damage angle harder.
I like things as they stand 
Leave 'em
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Not everyone thinks there are major problems. The only thing that I would like to find is a way to make it less "undesirable" to have more then one tank on a team. Right now there's a stigma that a second tank on a team doesn't create a "force multiplier" or add as much as another AT, so "why bring another?". I can't think of another AT that has that kind of reputation in game. This is why I advocate a way of stacking a portion of bruising.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
No you're seeing a lot of this because people don't recognize, appreciate or simply want to ignore the Tanker's higher base mitigation.
This sub-forum is just turning into a giant wishlist of how make Tankers the greatest melee AT of all time and why they deserve extra special treatment. |
This may not be the perfect example, but here goes. A while ago, for one of the Tanker Tuesday events, we ran an all Tank Dr. Kahn task force. The settings were +0/x0, so it wasn't like we were going in at max diff. The team steam rolled through most of the content and were able to take down all the AVs, with the exception of Reichsman. With the 8 of us beating on him, and yes using the temp you get from the TF, we couldn't budge his health one iota. It wasn't until we grabbed some shivans and envenom daggers that we were able to knock him down. It always makes me wonder if any other "AT" team would have the same problem with Reichsman as we had without having to grab outside temp powers to make it work. Events like this are why I'd like to see bruising stack from other tanks.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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While I understand that part of this is because more damage & more debuffs are always good, theree's another part as well.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Not everyone thinks there are major problems. The only thing that I would like to find is a way to make it less "undesirable" to have more then one tank on a team. Right now there's a stigma that a second tank on a team doesn't create a "force multiplier" or add as much as another AT, so "why bring another?". I can't think of another AT that has that kind of reputation in game. This is why I advocate a way of stacking a portion of bruising.
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I would say that no other AT has such complete supremacy in their specialization that literally a second Tanker's mitigation is not needed.
Because one tanker can literally take care of all of it.
Or you could play incarnate trials which are progressively requiring multiple aggro capable characters.
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Well, an all Blaster team would have problems because they'd all be faceplanted. Most Scrappers, Stalkers and Brutes would probably need temp powers or a lot of inspiration use to stay alive as well. So that's half the ATs right there.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
It always makes me wonder if any other "AT" team would have the same problem with Reichsman as we had without having to grab outside temp powers to make it work.
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I am the longest original hater of second tanks that I know. I have been called all kinds of things for being so, one of my favourites was being called a Tanking Snob, I gladly admitted to it but its not about the AT itself for me its simply about team work. I do not often see 2 tankers maximizing the teams potential, I see one doing the main work and the other I haven't got a clue what they do half the time.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Not everyone thinks there are major problems. The only thing that I would like to find is a way to make it less "undesirable" to have more then one tank on a team. Right now there's a stigma that a second tank on a team doesn't create a "force multiplier" or add as much as another AT, so "why bring another?".
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Hard to argue about Blasters and Stalkers. |
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Well, an all Blaster team would have problems because they'd all be faceplanted. Most Scrappers, Stalkers and Brutes would probably need temp powers or a lot of inspiration use to stay alive as well. So that's half the ATs right there.
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Depending on the Scrappers and Brutes, I'm not sure it would be as problematic, but I could certainly be wrong.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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So far everything that I take from your arguments is that you feel tanks are so overpowered in their role, that any minor change would make them even MORE overpowered. Are you afraid this will make them step on Brute or Scrapper's toes, or do you some how see Tanks as "the perfect beast" and should never be changed? I suspect you hate the idea that tanks have bruising in the first place. (As it is, Brutes and Scrappers can be built to be more survivable then some tanks, and some Tank builds can out damage some Brute/Scrapper builds. Been there, done that.) As someone who does play brute and scrappers I am trying to understand where you're coming from. Really, I am. I'm just not seeing it. Maybe I'm being dense here. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
While I understand that part of this is because more damage & more debuffs are always good, theree's another part as well.
I would say that no other AT has such complete supremacy in their specialization that literally a second Tanker's mitigation is not needed. Because one tanker can literally take care of all of it. Or you could play incarnate trials which are progressively requiring multiple aggro capable characters. |
Again, I'm not arguing that an individual tank should be able to do more bruising/de-buffing then they already do. I'm not asking for an individual tank to be able to do more damage then they already do. I'm asking for a minor portion of the bruising effect be allowed to stack when other tanks are on the team. SEE that. OTHER TANKS, not the individual tank. What is so "OUTRAGEOUS" about that? WHY does allowing a SECOND or MORE tanks on a team to have some minor force multiplication get you in such a tizzy? I would like to see full team of tanks be barely able to do the same amount of -res a controller or defender could do on their own, if even that much. So let's see, 8 tanks compared to 1 Defender/Controller.. hmm... Yeah. WAY overpowered.... sigh.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I don't think they are overpowered as they are now.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
So far everything that I take from your arguments is that you feel tanks are so overpowered in their role, that any minor change would make them even MORE overpowered.
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I do think they were designed with a level of mitigation that is so high that it gives the AT little wiggle room to improve other areas.
I also personally think that Tankers can often make some parts of the game too easy, and it can encourage lazy play sometimes on the part of teammates. I can't prove this, it's just my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I suspect you hate the idea that tanks have bruising in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
SEE that. OTHER TANKS, not the individual tank. What is so "OUTRAGEOUS" about that? WHY does allowing a SECOND or MORE tanks on a team to have some minor force multiplication get you in such a tizzy?
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Maybe you can ask the developers, because they specifically designed it not to stack.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I would like to see full team of tanks be barely able to do the same amount of -res a controller or defender could do on their own, if even that much. So let's see, 8 tanks compared to 1 Defender/Controller.. hmm... Yeah. WAY overpowered.... sigh.
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I'd hate to give people less reasons to play support ATs.
Defenders, Controllers & Corrs give up personal mitigation to be capable of buffs/debuffs.
EDIT: As we speak, I'm on a UG with 5 Tankers, 4 Scrappers and 4 Brutes.
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As long as you keep talking like that we'll get along just fine. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Tankers the greatest melee AT of all time
they deserve extra special treatment. |
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Well played. |
Originally Posted by Acemace
As long as you keep talking like that we'll get along just fine.
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For the most part, I'm happy with the way tanks perform.
However, I do understand complaints about how heavily buffed Brutes compare against heavily buffed Tanks.
I don't think the solution is to give tanks more damage.
I believe the solution is to change the primary sets.
Adapting Defense sets for tankers should be more like adapting Defense sets for Stalkers.
Take Ice Armour, combine Glacial Armour with Frozen Armour, just add all the values. Then add add a new power, Ice Motes. Ice Motes spawns 10 pets, each one identical to a veteran combat pet but with a massive taunt aura. They die exceedingly quickly, but each Ice Mote is one attack that isn't made against the tanker (or her allies).
Take Super Reflexes, combine Agile and Lucky. Give it a new power "Bullet Time" a click PBAoE foe -recharge and self +regen per target hit. Or give it something like Ice Motes.
Powers that give a defensive set a unique flavour on Tanks.